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Author Topic: Etsy petition - NOT signing this!  (Read 2519 times)

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« on: November 15, 2021, 11:50 »
+6
I am a small seller on Etsy (selling my own digital backgrounds for baby photographers) ...  I just got the e-mail message below from Etsy, urging me to sign their petition against the new EU rules ...
I am sooooo NOT signing this petition!

Defend the rights of European small business owners

You may be aware that the European Commission has proposed legislation called the Digital Services Act (DSA).
The DSA includes new rules for how digital platforms like Etsy operate. As part of our ongoing commitment to running a safe and fair marketplace, weve been working with EU policymakers as the DSA is being drafted and negotiated.

 Unfortunately, some members of the European Parliament have recently proposed additional rules for the DSA that threaten to harm our marketplace and sellers businesses. Some of these new rules would result in:

           A slower, more bureaucratic process for creating a new shop or updating your account information. Marketplaces would have to verify that all information provided by the seller is correct before allowing them to sell, and also verify any future changes.
           Your listings are more likely to be blocked or removed. Because the new rules would hold marketplaces strictly liable for items sold on their platforms, theres a greater chance that legitimate listings might be removed. This would also divert marketplace resources away from where theyre actually neededfighting bad actors trying to harm consumers.
           Less choice for sellers and consumers would also result from the proposed rules, as many sellers are likely to be discouraged from the increased complexity of selling online. For example, marketplaces like Etsy would have to check every listing for full compliance with labelling and certification requirements before the listing could even be posted.

 Etsy's CEO, Josh Silverman, has been speaking up against these unnecessary and misguided rules with EU policymakers because he knows they would harm the creative business of every seller who wishes to sell online in Europe. But the reality is lawmakers wont protect small business owners unless they hear from youtheir constituentsdirectly.

Will you join us in urging EU policymakers to stop adding these harmful burdens on small businesses like yours?
Sign the petition


Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2021, 12:13 »
+16
Ha, I have to love that, as Etsy and similar other sites, do nothing to stop, erase or prevent fraudulent listings. Etsy wants this because they would have to clean up their site. I hate to say the same goes for FAA in some ways and some other craft and POD sites. Etsy makes money from stupid listings, because people pay to list. Of course they don't want to remove those.

There is some who's responsible, as sites are protected now, but asking for the sites to pay attention and not just ignore fraud, because it costs money to monitor, is interesting. Hey wait... anyone say stolen images, fake ID ports with stolen images, on some major Microstock agencies? That should be included.

Where do we sign the petition that supports the EU new rules?  ;D

« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2021, 12:23 »
+8
Where do we sign the petition that supports the EU new rules?  ;D


Yes, I want to find that petition too!!

H2O

« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2021, 12:09 »
+5
This petition is about protecting people, from reading it, it is about consumer rights for both the sellers and purchasers.

I can't see anything wrong in that.

Just looked them up, they are based in New York, another problem company from the US. These people like SS, Getty, simply don't care about anything other than personal wealth.

American companies are far worse than European, just look at them all with there capricious greed, over here in the UK, US companies, especially Private Equity ones are renowned for asset stripping our companies and loading them with debt, this is not just in cash terms, but transferring our technology.

After they own the companies for a few years, they sell them on, just leaving a smouldering wreck, loaded with debt after nicking the pension fund as well.

Terrible people in the American Capitalist System, that seems to have turned in to a monster for many countries in the world, is not a force for good, it needs to be regulated to work fairly, and that is what the petition is about.

I'm surprised they didn't start the petition with 'Great News'.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 12:23 by H2O »

« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2021, 12:16 »
+12
This petition is about protecting people, from reading it, it is about consumer rights for both the sellers and purchasers.

I can't see anything wrong in that.
No, this petition is about etsy not wanting to be held accountable if someone steals your artwork and sells it on etsy.

« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2021, 16:10 »
+5
This petition is about protecting people, from reading it, it is about consumer rights for both the sellers and purchasers.

I can't see anything wrong in that.
No, this petition is about etsy not wanting to be held accountable if someone steals your artwork and sells it on etsy.


Exactly! +1

« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2021, 03:11 »
+1
Wow, what a coincidence, see my post here for how many resources Etsy is using to fight bad actors

https://www.microstockgroup.com/general-stock-discussion/begging-for-help-from-vector-illustrators!/

Hint, it is literally ZERO above what they are FORCED to by the law (i.e. they accept a DMCA take-down notice to stop themselves getting sued then wash their hands, relist and take their fees from thieves).

Please, if you are an EU citizen contact your representative and let them know you are behind the legislation to protect your rights as a legitimate artist!

Noedelhap

  • www.colincramm.com

« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2021, 06:01 »
+5
I really want to sign any counterpetition, supporting the DSA.

Etsy feels threatened because they don't want to waste resources on actively preventing copyright infringement and are trying to rally Etsy shop owners to support their lazy policies by instilling fear in their hearts: "fewer sales, more bureaucracy, your listings removed!" Fighting copyright infringment and actively verifiying who sells what is expensive and they can't be bothered because profit is everything.

« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2021, 06:39 »
+4
I really want to sign any counterpetition, supporting the DSA.

Etsy feels threatened because they don't want to waste resources on actively preventing copyright infringement and are trying to rally Etsy shop owners to support their lazy policies by instilling fear in their hearts: "fewer sales, more bureaucracy, your listings removed!" Fighting copyright infringment and actively verifiying who sells what is expensive and they can't be bothered because profit is everything.


Honestly I think the waste of time/ resources they are pushing is an excuse.

I think the real worry is that it actually will mean 99% of the shops selling digital, and a huge amount of Etsy's income will go down the toilet, because the vast majority of the digital artwork on Etsy is either infringing copyright or trademarks.

Dont believe me? Do a search for svg or vector on there. No actual artist can make a decent living because thieves can package our work 200+ vectors to a file and sell for 1-2 dollars, unlimited commercial use and resale because they have next to zero production costs.

It's a joke, I suggest someone let Josh Silverman know on Twitter as he seems blissfully unaware. The handful of replies he has gotten are from probable thieves complaining of having shops closed (back when etsy did that).

« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 06:43 by Justanotherphotographer »

« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2021, 07:22 »
+5
This petition is about protecting people, from reading it, it is about consumer rights for both the sellers and purchasers.

I can't see anything wrong in that.

Just looked them up, they are based in New York, another problem company from the US. These people like SS, Getty, simply don't care about anything other than personal wealth.

American companies are far worse than European, just look at them all with there capricious greed, over here in the UK, US companies, especially Private Equity ones are renowned for asset stripping our companies and loading them with debt, this is not just in cash terms, but transferring our technology.

After they own the companies for a few years, they sell them on, just leaving a smouldering wreck, loaded with debt after nicking the pension fund as well.

Terrible people in the American Capitalist System, that seems to have turned in to a monster for many countries in the world, is not a force for good, it needs to be regulated to work fairly, and that is what the petition is about.

I'm surprised they didn't start the petition with 'Great News'.

This petition is not about protecting anyone except Etsy. If you hate the American Capitolists so much, don't work for them. You like having your work stolen and resold when Etsy does nothing, you'll be happy as a poor socialist giving away your images for free, you are also happy staying poor on the dole.

« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2021, 07:28 »
+7
Good move European Union! Hope they get SS asap  ;)

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2021, 09:26 »
+3
Good move European Union! Hope they get SS asap  ;)

I was thinking along the same lines. Then give notice to all the rest who don't respect individual artists works or take down notices.

« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2021, 10:22 »
0
Ha, I have to love that, as Etsy and similar other sites, do nothing to stop, erase or prevent fraudulent listings. Etsy wants this because they would have to clean up their site. I hate to say the same goes for FAA in some ways and some other craft and POD sites. Etsy makes money from stupid listings, because people pay to list. Of course they don't want to remove those.

There is some who's responsible, as sites are protected now, but asking for the sites to pay attention and not just ignore fraud, because it costs money to monitor, is interesting. Hey wait... anyone say stolen images, fake ID ports with stolen images, on some major Microstock agencies? That should be included.

Where do we sign the petition that supports the EU new rules?  ;D

"Do nothing" is an incorrect statement.
I submitted hundreds of DMCA requests and Etsy removed those listings with no questions asked.
Only a few sellers countered my DMCAs. Out of those, maybe 3 had valid reasons, showing me the proof of their extended licenses.

Less than a handful countered without showing the proof.
While these are more complicated cases, I have not seen these sellers re-listing my work, despite their counter.

In principle, I have a problem with those who expect others (read government) to take care of their business, instead of taking similar actions. Maybe all of us should flood Etsy with DMCAs, before we ask for government intervention.

I can also see a valid point in Etsy's message. Sellers with valid licenses can be unfairly impacted.

Besides, why don't you ask for similar regulations for the postal service? Make them responsible and penalize them for delivering stolen goods.

Or make the power companies responsible and penalize them for delivering electricity to thieves and criminals.

Or supermarkets for feeding thieves and criminals. Why not?

etc...

In my opinion, governments should hunt down these thieves directly, instead of delegating their responsibilities to commercial companies.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 12:12 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2021, 10:33 »
0
once the law is active, can't we all then earn more from legal warning letters than from microstock? We should already get together with lawyers. Let's get the money from Etsy and similar back!

« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2021, 11:13 »
+2
In principle, I have a problem with those who expect others (read government) to take care of their business, instead of taking similar actions. Maybe if all of us should flood Etsy with DMCAs, before we ask for the government intervention.
In my opinion, governments should hunt down these thieves directly, instead of delegating their responsibilities to commercial companies.


You make a point, but I think the new law FORCES those companies to do something.  At this moment, if Etsy does NOT react when we report a theft, there's little we can do.  If Etsy did the right thing with your DMCA's, it's because they WANTED to, not because the are legally OBLIGED to. 
I won't go so far as to expect Etsy to pay for the damages, but I would welcome a law that enforces them to react.

« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2021, 11:26 »
0
In principle, I have a problem with those who expect others (read government) to take care of their business, instead of taking similar actions. Maybe if all of us should flood Etsy with DMCAs, before we ask for the government intervention.
In my opinion, governments should hunt down these thieves directly, instead of delegating their responsibilities to commercial companies.


You make a point, but I think the new law FORCES those companies to do something.  At this moment, if Etsy does NOT react when we report a theft, there's little we can do.  If Etsy did the right thing with your DMCA's, it's because they WANTED to, not because the are legally OBLIGED to. 
I won't go so far as to expect Etsy to pay for the damages, but I would welcome a law that enforces them to react.

This is incorrect. They reacted to my DMCA reports because they WANT to respect the law  ;).

(DMCA) It criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services intended to circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works.

I'm very certain that they will always react if you report a theft (following their DMCA reporting process).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 11:33 by Zero Talent »

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2021, 15:31 »
+3
Ha, I have to love that, as Etsy and similar other sites, do nothing to stop, erase or prevent fraudulent listings. Etsy wants this because they would have to clean up their site. I hate to say the same goes for FAA in some ways and some other craft and POD sites. Etsy makes money from stupid listings, because people pay to list. Of course they don't want to remove those.

There is some who's responsible, as sites are protected now, but asking for the sites to pay attention and not just ignore fraud, because it costs money to monitor, is interesting. Hey wait... anyone say stolen images, fake ID ports with stolen images, on some major Microstock agencies? That should be included.

Where do we sign the petition that supports the EU new rules?  ;D

"Do nothing" is an incorrect statement.
I submitted hundreds of DMCA requests and Etsy removed those listings with no questions asked.
Only a few sellers countered my DMCAs. Out of those, maybe 3 had valid reasons, showing me the proof of their extended licenses.

Less than a handful countered without showing the proof.
While these are more complicated cases, I have not seen these sellers re-listing my work, despite their counter.

In principle, I have a problem with those who expect others (read government) to take care of their business, instead of taking similar actions. Maybe all of us should flood Etsy with DMCAs, before we ask for government intervention.

I can also see a valid point in Etsy's message. Sellers with valid licenses can be unfairly impacted.

Besides, why don't you ask for similar regulations for the postal service? Make them responsible and penalize them for delivering stolen goods.

Or make the power companies responsible and penalize them for delivering electricity to thieves and criminals.

Or supermarkets for feeding thieves and criminals. Why not?

etc...

In my opinion, governments should hunt down these thieves directly, instead of delegating their responsibilities to commercial companies.

I'm saying they should be doing it on their own, or the regulations should be enforced that exist which means, true the site is protected from action for hosting illegal enterprise, if they don't know. But turning a blind eye and ignoring obvious illegal activity is against the regulations. That's where government and law should come in. SS for example hides behind DMCA and sends suggestive threatening responses to people who complain.

Remember the file sharing sites that were shut down, and prosecuted, for hosting stolen music, software and other items. Your examples are very funny but not the same. Selling food to a criminal? No what it would be is if a grocery store bought stolen food from a hijacker and then sold it to make a profit. Quite different. The post office and electric company example are just as ludicrous. Etsy is profiting, knowingly from stolen image collections on their site.

Now if a pawn shop takes stolen goods, or a recycler takes copper wire by the spool, or they have people with scrapped cat converters, cut off with a torch, from cars, week after week. They are supposed to do something. If they don't, the law takes over.



How do these stay listed on Etsy? Fakes, lies and fraud. Why do they stay listed? Because Etsy does nothing.

What's this?


Others have not had the same success as you. They get counter claims and ignored.

What's your solution? Just let the thieves keep doing whatever they want, and no one should care? Because Etsy makes money from the listings and the sales, and they know that policing their own shop would cut down on the money they make from illegal activity.

Sites can only hide behind their protection if they don't know that the activity is illegal, not if they just ignore illegal activity.

The Laws are aligned with these standards and conditions. #1 websites are protected.

1) Direct infringement occurs when an infringer copies a copyrighted work. Direct liability is a strict liability offense, and thus does not require the infringer to know of the infringement. If direct infringement applies, a website provider would be liable if a user posts a copyrighted work that is subsequently downloaded or viewed by others. While some courts have held service providers directly liable for user-committed copyright infringement, other courts have rejected imposing direct liability as unduly harsh and instead analyze infringement claims against website providers under contributory or vicarious liability.

2) Contributory infringement occurs when a party knows of an infringing activity and substantially participates in that activity. While the existing cases have not definitively addressed when a website is contributorily infringing based on its users. activities, the cases generally have suggested a notice-based liability standard. In other words, once a website receives notice that a user is committing infringement, the website will be deemed to be substantially participating in the infringement if it does not remove the infringement within a reasonable period of time. (Note: The courts have not yet defined what is a suitable "notice" that alleges copyright infringement; for now, each notice must be analyzed on its own terms.) Of course, if a website actually knows of a particular infringement based on its practices, this knowledge will also trigger the duty to act. Thus, to minimize exposure for contributory copyright infringement, websites should (a) try to reduce actual knowledge of user-generated content by not monitoring their services, and (b) respond promptly to notices alleging that a user is committing copyright infringement.

3) Vicarious copyright infringement occurs when a party has the right and ability to control the infringer and reaps a direct financial benefit from the infringing activity. As a practical matter, many websites take the position that they have little or no ability to control their users. However, cases suggest that even nominal indicia of the right and ability to control users.such as a user agreement that contains subjective and arbitrary restrictions on users, or a pattern of disabling users. accounts or yanking user content.could, when aggregated, lead to a finding that the website has the "right and ability to control" the infringing user.

These are for websites in general and lean towards postings and content but a POD and sales site would be held to the same or more stringent standards.

Authorities do not get involved in chasing down these claims, which you said they should, because they are matters of intangible items, not physical items. In some cases the charges are also civil not criminal. Theft of a digital asset is a tricky legal territory.

Maybe better laws are the answer and something that goes after the thieves. We don't have that unfortunately. I'd prefer that to more arbitrary web regulations. Self control is the best control.




« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2021, 18:56 »
+1
Etsy's core business, of course, is selling one-off handcrafted physical products. That's their market niche and that's what all their promotions and advertising is geared towards. And I imagine all their infrastructure and systems have been set up around this too. I doubt very much if they have the same review systems as say, stock photography agencies, where they have trained people to check everything for trademarks and copyright issues.

That being said, their fall-back 'system' is definitely to take something down immediately it is reported. I have read several Etsy seller blog articles that complained that if another seller believed your design was too similar to theirs, and they complained to Etsy, that product would be immediately taken down, and the seller would have to reasonably argue their case to have it reinstated.

I am guessing that with regard to monitoring all designs, it may fall into the too-costly basket. And the cost-benefit to Etsy may not be warranted by them. Probably a similar situation with Fine Art America.

I dont know what the answer is, but they definitely take down reported cases as many have testified.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 19:14 by Annie »

« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2021, 04:11 »
+4
Hi Annie. Etsy will take down any listing they receive a DMCA notice for. The problem is they will also relist as soon as an infringer files a counter notice, which is also automated on the site.
Many bad actors have now realised this and just file a counter notice as standard whenever they are reported. I suspect that this even removes a strike from their account as these people are the ones who still have shops open after many months of being repeatedly reported.
So effectively sellers are just self policing, if they are honest enough to own up to their "crime" (or even made an honest mistake) they get closed down, if they double down they get to keep on truckin'

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2021, 10:15 »
+1
I see both sides, and I really don't think, take down without review, when there is a complaint is the right answer. That's too Draconian.

But also, allowing obvious infringing items or restoring items, after a counter, is also not right.

More laws and regulations, won't make anything better, I agree with that also. But if the agencies and websites refuse to monitor and police their own content, then someone has to push them into doing what they should have done from the start?

Vicarious copyright infringement occurs when a party has the right and ability to control the infringer and reaps a direct financial benefit from the infringing activity.

That would be any site that profits from allowing illegal activity, when they know it's illegal and they are aware of that activity.

Etsy's core business, of course, is selling one-off handcrafted physical products.

That's what they claim, but a huge part of their site is just listing and re-selling anything. If they limited to hand-crafted and art or creative, as their statement of intent is, everyone would be better off.

The coins, which none are rare, including a number of listings that are just something run over by a car, are stupid and insulting to buyers.
"Rare Penny" 4,052 results "Old Wheat Pennies Unsearched Cents" yeah right, unsearched?
"Lot of Unopened Old Vintage Baseball Cards in Factory Sealed Packs"  :o
"Authentic License Plates - All States Available"
"Royal Copenhagen Christmas Porcelain Plates" and many others
"Little Leather Library 1920's Books Miniature"
"Vintage film camera -Cool Vintage Kodak"

If they would just stop and block the eBay type listings, and watch for obvious image thieves, do a fair review before shutting down items, I think everyone, buyers and sellers would be very, very, happy. People who do make one-off hand crafted products would be celebrating to have the junk and fraud removed from the site.

$0.20 Listing fee
5 % Transaction fee
3% + $0.25 payment processing fee
15% Offsite Ads Fee (Offsite advertising is optional for most sellers, but may be required based on how much you make in sales on Etsy in a 12 month period)

I'd love to see the site, 100% arts and crafts, gifts and one-off products.

« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2021, 13:08 »
+1

Etsy's core business, of course, is selling one-off handcrafted physical products.

That's what they claim, but a huge part of their site is just listing and re-selling anything.



I disagree with you here, Pete. Have a really good look around the site. These are the number of results per their categories:

Jewelry - 26 million
Clothing & Shoes - 14 million
Home & Living - 28 million
Wedding - 10 million
Toys - 9 million
Craft Supplies - 17 million.

and that's only for items that are shipped to USA. You cant do a search on 'ships anywhere'.

The main category with the dodgy stuff is Art & Collectibles. And that's only 10 million results compared to the total handcrafted physical products. And of course, not all of it is dodgy. It would be closer to 5% or much less of their total products. My estimate would be less than 1%.

But of course, that still doesn't solve the initial problem.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 16:12 by Annie »

« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2021, 16:45 »
+1

So effectively sellers are just self policing

That could be said with most online marketplaces. Don't get me started on what happens on eBay or Amazon Marketplace. lol

This situation affects the people here directly because its about imagery, but the other marketplaces are worse in many other regards.

I still don't know how you would motivate these places to change their modus operandi, adding costly systems, employing reviewers, etc, if the overall problem affects less than 5% of their business - unless it is some type of government control or as per the Euro Commission mentioned above.

However, as a buyer, I really like Etsy. All my shopping experiences there (for handcrafted physical gifts and products) have been very rewarding. Those sellers are always lovely and very accommodating. It has that nice cottage-industry appeal to it. And that has been cultivated and rewarded by Etsy itself. That cannot be said of some of my experiences elsewhere.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 17:26 by Annie »

« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2021, 02:42 »
0
I also buy art and hand made stuff on etsy from genuine sellers. I don't have any experience of it as a marketplace for antiques or similar. I am strictly talking about digital on this thread, for that it's a nightmare.

« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2021, 17:20 »
+2
Here is another example I dealt with today, after the seller received a takedown notice from Etsy, following my DMCA report:

Seller: Hello,
We just received your copyright complain regarding your photo and we do ave the license for it. We licensed your photo via DepositPhoto and here is the information
Photography ID: xxxxxxxx
License ID: yyyyyyy
Please let us know if you need any information and we are looking forward to resolve this issue.

Me: Please let me know the type of license you purchased and the date of the purchase
Seller: I dont know how to look at it, I bought in yyyy.
This is how I saved the file. From DepositPhotos.
Date: mmm dd, yyyy
Photography ID: xxxxxxx
License ID: yyyyyyyy

Me: I can see this photo being purchased 3 times on mm dd, yyyy.
However, none of these licenses is an extended license.
To resell prints, posters, etc, you need to purchase an EXTENDED license.
For more details check this license comparison:
https://depositphotos.com/license-comparison.html

Seller: We do have adobe stock images can you please send us the direct link for adobe or we can license it directly from you for a lower price

15 minutes after I sent him the link, I was able to see his Extended license purchase from AS.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 17:23 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2021, 17:26 »
0
Here is another example I dealt with today, after the seller received a takedown notice from Etsy, following my DMCA report:

Seller: Hello,
We just received your copyright complain regarding your photo and we do ave the license for it. We licensed your photo via DepositPhoto and here is the information
Photography ID: xxxxxxxx
License ID: yyyyyyy
Please let us know if you need any information and we are looking forward to resolve this issue.

Me: Please let me know the type of license you purchased and the date of the purchase
Seller: I dont know how to look at it, I bought in yyyy.
This is how I saved the file. From DepositPhotos.
Date: mmm dd, yyyy
Photography ID: xxxxxxx
License ID: yyyyyyyy

Me: I can see this photo being purchased 3 times on mm dd, yyyy.
However, none of these licenses is an extended license.
To resell prints, posters, etc, you need to purchase an EXTENDED license.
For more details check this license comparison:
https://depositphotos.com/license-comparison.html

Seller: We do have adobe stock images can you please send us the direct link for adobe or we can license it directly from you for a lower price

15 minutes after I sent him the link, I was able to see his Extended license purchase from AS.

It's sad, but true. Nobody reads any license terms in this day and age.


 

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