I don't know why it should be considered as hypocrisy: everybody is free to choose to contribute to mirostock or not and purchasing from contributors who decide to sell their photo for $1 does not mean that you intend to sell yours for that price.

I don't see any problem here.

And you should have told him that you find his photos not very good... it's somehow hypocrite to write it here while not telling him your feelings 

I don't know why it should be considered as hypocrisy: everybody is free to choose to contribute to mirostock or not and purchasing from contributors who decide to sell their photo for $1 does not mean that you intend to sell yours for that price.

I don't see any problem here.

And you should have told him that you find his photos not very good... it's somehow hypocrite to write it here while not telling him your feelings 

I only put that side note of my opinion because I thought it was relevant.....as in, if you are an incredible photographer, you could probably fetch more for your pictures. 
He didn't ask my opinion of his pictures and I believe that you shouldn't say such things unless asked for your critique.

As for the hypocrisy question....I'm not super-serious about my question....I just thought it was kinda funny that he expects other people to sell their pictures for a dollar, but he thinks he's too good for that. 

I think a photographer can buy and sell where ever he wants without the scrutinizing of his piers. I personally don't care where he gets his images from or sells them I feel it is his business. I would prefer to see more information that we can all use as photographers rather than talk hypocrisy on some guy I don't know.

My two cents,
AVAVA

You didn't have to respond if you weren't interested in the topic. 
I just figured it was a topic that some people might be interested in since so many people seem to be into discussing the whole macro vs. micro which is what this is basically about.  I guess hypocrite is too strong of a word, but it was the first one that came to mind when I typed this up.

 Paula, we have values placed on things. It's like the way we choose our wine. We go to an office party, we select some bubbly, cheap ones. We have a dinner at home for two, ie. your special someone, we select the good ones, a little pricey.
Buying/selling photos is no different from buying/selling wine.

Paula,

  Sorry for offending you. You are correct, if I don't have anything good to say best to just not say it. You say what you wish about this individual.

AVAVA

Maybe I should've just made this person a hypothetical person.  No matter, it wasn't a big deal.  Next subject.

Does that make him a hypocrite that he would buy other people's pictures for a dollar, but not sell his own for the same price?

Yes.

But to make Avava's point, you're free to be a hypocrite if you want.

Quote from: avava on January 27, 2009, 19:46

Paula,Sorry for offending you. You are correct, if I don't have anything good to say best to just not say it. You say what you wish about this individual. AVAVA

Maybe I should've just made this person a hypothetical person.  No matter, it wasn't a big deal.  Next subject.

Paula, all is fair in the forum. Literally it means open speech, so don't feel bad . You asked an honest question. If we have to think twice each time we ask a question here, it would take away half the fun .
Let's consider this no different from getting together at the pub. OK?  cheers, bottoms up !

Does that make him a hypocrite that he would buy other people's pictures for a dollar, but not sell his own for the same price?
As a side note, he showed me some of his photography....it's not very good IMO.

Not a hypocrite just a good businessman that knows his own limitations by not shooting his own images, and values his own time more than his vanity!

I know how to fix my car and a few years ago I would have had a go, but now I value the service the local garage gives, they do a better job have the right tools, and they free my time to earn money at what I do best, am I a hypocrite?

David 

Well, I have to say that the responses I got from this question made me feel less inclined to start any posts or comment much at all.  I wasn't trying to talk about this person behind their back but more just to bring up the topic of people buying pictures for $1 but not willing to sell them......the same way a person complains about Wal-mart putting them out of business and then shopping there.  But this isn't the first time that I have experienced negativity from people on this site.   
In the future, I'll just ask questions of things that directly pertain to the direct business of microstock, if I have any that can't be answered by sifting through the thousands of other messages.  Or I'll figure it out myself.  Or find the answer from a friendlier forum.   

[/quote]

Paula, I hope you don't really mean that. Everyones views and comments are appreciated here I hope. Your original posting certainly made me smile. Perhaps ironic rather than hypocritical was the case here. I have always found this a friendly forum (apart perhaps from being accused of being a stooge of picturenation.co.uk when all I did was pass on my own experience as a contributor there!). Please keep posting on anything you like! Regards, David

photos he took 'years ago' = film or bad dSLRs --> he couldn't cut it in the microstock industry

good point, ichiro. 

Well, I've been trying to participate in the forum, but my experience thus far hasn't been all that pleasant.  I think my time would be better spent working on pictures...I'm not making any money making comments in here and if they're not wanted, then there's no reason for me to stick around.  I've already been attacked twice now and I've seen some really sarcastic remarks made to other new users so this site hasn't made a very good impression on me.  I belong to another online photography community who are very nice and helpful and I consider many of them to be good friends. 

Paula,
This has been the mood lately, but MSG wasn't like that. I don't understand what triggered that, but there has been a lot of sarcasm and bashing lately.  I think we all have the right to disagree, I only think we should make it politely.

Regards,
Adelaide

I agree with you Adelaide! -A level off hostility is definitely uplately. I'm not sure what is the reason for that, but in any case, we should all be polite to each other, even in disagreement.

If I had to guess I would say that the world economic downturn and the corresponding downturn in a lot of people's stats is to blame.  I remember past recessions that things like racism, crime, etc. go up and civility/courtesy become pretty scarce.

It's easy to get sucked into the negativity, but I believe that the world will show you what you are looking for - good or bad - depending on your state of mind. Maybe it sounds cliched,  but I believe in the power of positive thinking.     

Paula, they say that the first stage of that old age affliction,( I won't mention the sickness for fear of hurting the innocent old ones), begins with anger, distrust, fear of sharing, and blaming the world for your inability to cope and keep up with change.
This could have brought up the tempest, so to speak. Pls don't take it personally,
they're really not worth it. Share your thoughts here, don't be afraid of the boisterous and sometimes over the top exaggeration. It's like a game. Some ppl
after hitting bulleye will quietly walk away and sip their guinness, while another who miss the board will scream shout stomp their feet , and even pour the precious brew over their opponent.  All in a good day's forum, I'd say.
Hope to see you again, huh?

Hali,
If you sat down at your computer to discuss photography and you had the choice of choosing a site where people are supportive and helpful - even to new people, or you had the choice to come here where sarcastic remarks and verbal attacks were common place, which site would you go to?  If this was my only choice, then perhaps I would try to ignore the jerks and just focus on the nicer people.  But forums are everywhere and I have a choice. 
For another example of how rude people are on here, read this latest thread http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=6947.msg80456;topicseen#new The last post I read on there, someone took the time to write up a whole new version of how he should've presented his question, rather than taking the time to answer it.  Another person questioned the amount of time he had available.  And yet another person took the time to just be a smart a$$.  It seems to me that the people on here just want to attack newcomers.  But I guess jerks need their own forum, too.
Don't worry....I haven't taken any of this personally because no one on here knows me enough to make is personal.   
I'll be taking my guiness to another tavern, thank you.

Hi Paulo,

 It s totally your choice where to post but there are some really helpful kind people on this site you just have to seek them out. I apologized for how I responded because after reading my statement and your response I felt it was the proper thing to do. Please give everyone the chance to make this a stopping place for you and I bet you'll find some helpfull info. As for the few that rub you the wrong way. I had trouble at first as well and actually left the board for a couple of months but I came back with a new attitude and now when someone says something that is unhelpful or I feel is unkind in it's approach I suggest you have fun with it or just consider the source and move on. If there is anything I can help with in anyway of a question please feel welcome to PM me and I promise not to be mean or short with you.

Best,
AVAVA

Quote from: paulacobleigh on January 30, 2009, 11:31

For another example of how rude people are on here, read this latest thread http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=6947.msg80456;topicseen#new The last post I read on there, someone took the time to write up a whole new version of how he should've presented his question, rather than taking the time to answer it.  Another person questioned the amount of time he had available.  And yet another person took the time to just be a smart a$$.  It seems to me that the people on here just want to attack newcomers.  But I guess jerks need their own forum, too.

Here I take some time to point out to that poster a sensible way to approach what he wants to do (that would garner respect from other members) instead of blindly flailing ahead, and I'm a smart ass?  If you'd actually read it, it was a way to answer the question.  Perhaps some of those here would like to see people walk before they start running.  Makes more sense.

... and here you are calling people names, and someone else is the rude one?

I wasn't calling YOU the smart ass.  If you read what I wrote, I said you corrected his question without answering it and then I said "And yet another person took the time to just be a smart a$$", which was the person who said: "Take lot's of photos and put them in it." in answer to the question of, "What would be the best way to build up a portfolio?"  DUH! 
I felt the person took the time to let people know where he was coming from and what equipment he had for lighting....as a newcomer, to have your actual question critiqued seems nit-picky.
You guys might as well be totally honest if you're not going to be helpful and just say, "We don't want anyone else learning the business because you will be our competition so we're not going to tell you anything useful." or "We had to learn things the hard way so go figure all this stuff out yourself!"
I opened up the thread about the food photography question because I am also interested in it and there were only two helpful posts.....one person said avoid shallow DOF and the other person said you have to layer your pictures for deeper DOF.  However, I've learned much more from reading articles, which is where people could've steered him.  Or just not answer at all.

People come to this site to LEARN about microstock.

Actually, I come to this site to DISCUSS microstock.  Sorry about misreading your other post.  However, I wasn't rephrasing his question.  I was setting it up as an example of how he should approach what he wants to do.

I'd also agree with the "best way to build up a portfolio" would be to take the initiative to assign yourself work to do, get it done, and fill your portfolio with that.  That's what we all do daily.  Make our own assignments, shoot 'em, process 'em and add to the portfolio.  A business is not going to let you walk in the door as a newbie just because you have a camera.

Paul,

 I have so little info on shooting food to share it has never been my specialty. I had a couple of bread companies and a beer company for clients 15 years ago and the only main rule of thumb I use is my main is back to wrap the food unless the sauce is to reflective add a fill light to the front to soften the shadows down quite a bit and then try a hard accent light from the front or back corner just wracking the top of your subject to give it some sparkle and maybe warm up the highlights with a soft amber gel. Lighting beer is a whole different process using reflective cards placed behind the beer glasses with grid spots kicked into them to add the right amount of light to your beer to get the correct color of the product.
 Watch out for to short a depth of field and keep the background inviting but simple so it does not compete with the subject. There are some good books on how to make food look good with extra tips and tricks. A lot of times the food on the plate is not edible because it has been charred on the outside but still raw inside or they have added glycerin to something with a brush to make it shine a bit more. Good food shooting has a learning curve but it can become a successful career if approached seriously. School is an excellent option for such a career.

Good Luck,
AVAVA

Hmmmm....discuss but not learn.  Well, apparently I'm at the wrong site. 

Learning is a subset of discussion.  Not saying you can't do both.

Maybe I did word that comment badly.  The point was, and, this doesn't just apply to that poster, that if you walk in, being able to show some effort towards your goal with a sensible outlook, that people are more likely to help you.  ie., if you come in with "How do I make it in microstock" without even reading the camera manual, that doesn't show a lot of respect towards the members with knowledge to share, that you couldn't even take the time to access the opportunities available.

Paula, are you looking to do food photography?

Quote from: paulacobleigh on January 30, 2009, 15:08

Hmmmm....discuss but not learn.  Well, apparently I'm at the wrong site. 

Learning is a subset of discussion.  Not saying you can't do both.

Maybe I did word that comment badly.  The point was, and, this doesn't just apply to that poster, that if you walk in, being able to show some effort towards your goal with a sensible outlook, that people are more likely to help you.  ie., if you come in with "How do I make it in microstock" without even reading the camera manual, that doesn't show a lot of respect towards the members with knowledge to share, that you couldn't even take the time to access the opportunities available.

*I* know that learning is a subset of discussion, but since you chose to say that you come here to DISCUSS after I said people come here to LEARN makes it sound like you don't think learning has anything to do with why people come here.
I've seen people's responses to someone who has just asked "How do I do microstock?" and even though I think the person should ask more specific questions, I felt the answers on this site were flippant and rude.  My tactic has always been that if I didn't have anything to offer or wasn't sure a person was worth my effort, then I would just not respond at all.  No response sends a big message.
However, this guy stated that he had been trying for a couple of months, had read suggestions by other posters, and had tried offering his services for free to restaurants...but was being turned down.  He also gave a list of his lighting, etc. to help people give better educated responses as to what else he should buy.  So, in my opinion he has put in some effort that deserves some respect.
I feel that if the "seasoned" microstockers don't want to help out a newbie, then they shouldn't respond to their posts. 
I think perhaps the problem with this site is that people are so worried that some newbie is going to take a piece of their sales so they're not willing to help them out.....either that or maybe the are just miserable human beings who like to perpetuate miserableness. 
I have belonged to an art/photography online community for over two years and they are big into helping new people learn and giving them exposure.  I have told them about my interest in microstock photography and offered to answer any questions they might have about getting into microstock....even to the extent of looking through their gallery and suggesting pictures to use as their first submission and why I chose them.  I was going to include this site as a place where they could learn more, but have had second thoughts about that.  Same with my thoughts about actually becoming a paying member.  I'm not going to pay to be verbally abused by users here.  I pay for quite a few other sites and subscriptions that are much more worthy of my money.

Paul,

 I have so little info on shooting food to share it has never been my specialty. I had a couple of bread companies and a beer company for clients 15 years ago and the only main rule of thumb I use is my main is back to wrap the food unless the sauce is to reflective add a fill light to the front to soften the shadows down quite a bit and then try a hard accent light from the front or back corner just wracking the top of your subject to give it some sparkle and maybe warm up the highlights with a soft amber gel. Lighting beer is a whole different process using reflective cards placed behind the beer glasses with grid spots kicked into them to add the right amount of light to your beer to get the correct color of the product.
 Watch out for to short a depth of field and keep the background inviting but simple so it does not compete with the subject. There are some good books on how to make food look good with extra tips and tricks. A lot of times the food on the plate is not edible because it has been charred on the outside but still raw inside or they have added glycerin to something with a brush to make it shine a bit more. Good food shooting has a learning curve but it can become a successful career if approached seriously. School is an excellent option for such a career.

Good Luck,
AVAVA

I'm not sure if this one was directed to me since you said "Paul" and I am "Paula"....but I figured you might've mistaken the "a" as a middle initial. 
I have read a few articles on food photography and have been printing them out and putting them in a binder to read when the computer is being slow.   I created one shot of grilled salmon that was accepted by SS and has sold a few times, and also a shot of waffles and strawberries.  But food photography is one of the harder areas of photography (according to the articles) and I'm not fond of eating my food cold so much of what I cook doesn't get photographed.  Right now I'm trying to do a little of everything to see what I enjoy doing the most.  The day I stop enjoying taking pictures is the day I sell my camera.
Thanks for the tips, though.  I definitely have found that having a shallow DOF is a recipe for rejection.

Paula, are you looking to do food photography?

I had mentioned that it was an area of interest for me, but I'm not pursuing it exclusively.  My main passion is not stock.  I like to shoot waterfalls and landscapes when I'm out hiking and bring them back and show people how much beauty there is in this world.  It's also a way for me to document the places I've been so that when I'm old and grey I can sit around and show all the other people at the old folks home all the beautiful places I went when I was a young whipper-snapper.  Landscape photography (in general) doesn't make much money unless you're Ansel Adams, Galen Rowell, or Art Wolfe (or the like).  So, for an amateur photographer, I have found that putting my pictures on microstock sites can make money to buy better equipment so I can take better waterfall and landscape pictures. 
As for stock, I'm trying out things that are readily available to me without much investment.  I have my own studio with 3 large soft boxes and I have 4 backgrounds.  But my studio is in my basement with a low ceiling so it's got it's limitations.  Mostly I'm trying to figure out where I can do the best and still enjoy it (I'm not much for photographing people).  I like to cook so that's why food photography is somewhere I am exploring.

People will often say here that they don't read the Shutterstock (or was it DT) forums because there is nothing but pimping threads and fawning critiques posts.

If everything was happy cheery all the time, the world wouldn't be very interesting.  Everyone here has a different personality and posting style.  I find it interesting to read all the various views.  Sorry if that doesn't please you, but there's fun talk in amongst all the chitchat.  And some useful information.  For instance, I thought your initial post in this thread was very interesting.

Forgive me for being a bit of a Pollyanna, but I don't need conflict to find the world interesting.  I find the sarcasm and rudeness (esp towards newbies) a turnoff.  After many of my siblings moved away, my parents rented out rooms to foreign exchange students for extra income.  I learned a lot from the different cultures we had in our home.  But we all shared our cultures and beliefs in a respectful manner.  No one needed to be rude to make life interesting in the house.
As for my initial post in this thread, it was just a conversation-starter.  I don't really care one way or the other whether that particular person thinks his pictures are better and worth more $$.  But after learning how people like to respond around here, it'll probably be the last conversation I start.  
I've always been told that if you want to critique someone, you should sandwich in between compliments......as in, "I really like your composition of this shot.  The white balance is a bit on the blue side and could use some correction.  However, your focus is spot on!" (as an example).  If someone is directly asking for what's wrong with their shot, then I guess the sandwich method isn't necessary, but like I said, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna (or Mary Poppins).

Hi Paula,

 I think if most of the people on this site had to live together like those in your parents home or even work together in an office there would be a greater effort at social grace. These qualities are taught to us by our surroundings and family. If you were not subject to any form of proper social upbringing then it is hard to expect that result once an adult. Combine that with the anonymity of the net and you get an opportunity for just about any kind of response. It makes tough guys out of of people that most likely aren't that tough by nature. I think your explanation of how to sandwich a critique was very well put.

Best,
AVAVA

*Just an opinion*
This place can be rough at times. I don't post as much as others but most of us that have been here for a while have been beat up at one time or another. I guarantee if you stuck 2500 people in one house with the same job there would be some fighting/rudeness going on  . As far as I know there have not been any physical injuries  Just thickening of skin. I'm not sure how many different cultures are represented here but its a quite a few. I enjoy all the different personalities and opinions here even if its not the way I think, or do things. This is the best place to hang out if your a microstocker. There is pretty good mix of the "good, the bad, and the ugly". Its all fun and I try not to take it too personally.

Everyone has different reasons for being here but I like to come here to get the "news" and "info" and if I happen to learn something... great! but I don't see it as strictly a classroom. Plenty of people here willing to share information and some that oppose it, so be it. People are free to think and do what they want here as long as it falls within the site guidelines. Sarcasm is allowed I believe. I would think an "Art Forum" would be bit different with a lot of stroke me I stroke you attitude. I'm not sure what this place is exactly but its usually interesting.

If there is something important going on at one of the big 6 it will be discussed here. It just takes some getting used to. If there is ever a revolution(microstock) this is where it would be organized from   

If you look at the top of the page it says: "A meeting place for microstock photographers"  thats about it.

There are a lot of stupid people out there and as Ron White says, "You can't fix stupid!"  I guess I need to consider myself lucky that I've been able to be part of an online community for over two years now that actually has quite a lot of well-mannered people. 
I can't claim rights to thinking up the critique sandwich, nor can I tell you where I heard it. 
Paula

well said. after all is said and done. i think it's good to see you lightened up and smile.
that's all that matters here, really.  mean we are , some even real SOB, but for the most part,
like AVAVA said, it's all a facade for some very insecure inner structure.
You keep smiling, and chill . we want you here, and not at some other pub where you drink your guinness with some intellectual (cough cough) and well-heeled professionals. hell no, we need you here. cheers !

Xcuz me, I don't mean to interrupt your love-in, but has anyone seen Bruce (Willis)
 

seriously Paula, further to what you're experiencing, is due to a fear in some of us that others more willing to share are giving away too much.
I added this in a related topic elsewhere, it applies here to:
---Flemish said it all. As someone else mentioned elsewhere, shooting for micro is no rocket science. Any chimp can do it, as we see here with all those in panic  Grin except perharps the chimps due to their lack of the written language don't know how to express any better  Wink
The point is, if we are so blooming scared, it's probably because some of us have run out of ideas to SHOOT DIRT BETTER than the newbies.
Oh well, as the horse trader would say to an old toothless horse "if you can't keep up, maybe it's time we put you out . not to worry it will painless !" Wink---

Hey there Vonkara,

 I must admit I am a bit unclear what it was you where trying to say. Could you elaborate on it a bit more.

Best,
AVAVA

Quote from: avava on January 31, 2009, 12:21

Hey there Vonkara,

 I must admit I am a bit unclear what it was you where trying to say. Could you elaborate on it a bit more.

Best,
AVAVA

It's the nightmare I make each time there's a thread with long paragraphs

 

well said. after all is said and done. i think it's good to see you lightened up and smile.
that's all that matters here, really.  mean we are , some even real SOB, but for the most part,
like AVAVA said, it's all a facade for some very insecure inner structure.
You keep smiling, and chill . we want you here, and not at some other pub where you drink your guinness with some intellectual (cough cough) and well-heeled professionals. hell no, we need you here. cheers !

It's amazing how people wear their insecurities on their sleeve for the world to see.   
I might sit in the corner and drink my guinness until everyone is drunk enough to be jovial, though. 

seriously Paula, further to what you're experiencing, is due to a fear in some of us that others more willing to share are giving away too much.
I added this in a related topic elsewhere, it applies here to:
---Flemish said it all. As someone else mentioned elsewhere, shooting for micro is no rocket science. Any chimp can do it, as we see here with all those in panic  Grin except perharps the chimps due to their lack of the written language don't know how to express any better  Wink
The point is, if we are so blooming scared, it's probably because some of us have run out of ideas to SHOOT DIRT BETTER than the newbies.
Oh well, as the horse trader would say to an old toothless horse "if you can't keep up, maybe it's time we put you out . not to worry it will painless !" Wink---

Very amusing observation....and probably very true.  Hmmm.....do you think pictures of dirt would sell???   
Most of my portfolio is nature stuff, so I'm really not much of a true micro photographer.  I have been dabbling in it with stuff I have around the house, but so far my nature stuff has been selling better.  And I'm not much for photographing people so I guess I better go do some more hiking! lol!

And I'm not much for photographing people...

Shooting people is fun! The only problem is to get rid of the bodies. 

Quote from: paulacobleigh on February 01, 2009, 16:56

And I'm not much for photographing people...

Shooting people is fun! The only problem is to get rid of the bodies. 

You bring the shovel and I'll bring the lye. ;P