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Author Topic: Is it possible to sell images of old postcards as editorial?  (Read 6975 times)

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« on: December 30, 2012, 21:47 »
0
I've seen several images of old pictures or old postcards on microstock websites, and I was happy there is a way to sell something like that, as I have a small collection of very old postcards. But then I found a topic on the Shutterstock forum where a member was asking if he can upload his old postcards collection. This was the admin's answer:

Quote
You must OWN the copyright for every single thing you upload. There are some collectors out there who have wholesale bought copyrights from old images. They are uploading them - because they own the copyright. They found the estate that owns them, and purchased the rights.

 If you don't own the copyright, you can't upload it.

 We DO NOT accept public domain images.

 Uploading public domain images - or any image for which you do not own the copyright for - will result in a permanent ban from Shutterstock. There are no exceptions.



Now, I don't get it...why can you upload pictures of products and copyrighted trademarks and sell them as editorial, but you can't do the same thing with some very old and rare postcards? I'm really confused...


Sorry if the question is stupid but I'm just a beginner trying to understand the big microstock world >.<
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 21:55 by morning.light »


RacePhoto

« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2012, 01:14 »
+1
Like many other things, the rules have changed. Used to be you could upload Public Domain images, postcards out of copyright would be an example. Now you can't. If you own the copyrights to something, yes you can still upload it. Or if you get a property release from the rights owner, you could upload.

In case you are considering other places. The rule on IS last they told me was 1884 or before. You'll need to document that date for them. I don't know why. I asked and the answer was pretty much "that's what we say it is." Without any discussion.

I understand your point. Not only is the card public domain, the company that made it is likely out of business, so no o9ne owns the rights. If it's a company that was purchased, you'll have to find the new owners, but still the images are PD.

Keep this in mind. The agencies make their own rules. What one takes, another refuses, and a thrid will take with a documentation of the date it was published. What you see can very well be something that was accepted in 2007.


I've seen several images of old pictures or old postcards on microstock websites, and I was happy there is a way to sell something like that, as I have a small collection of very old postcards. But then I found a topic on the Shutterstock forum where a member was asking if he can upload his old postcards collection. This was the admin's answer:

Quote
You must OWN the copyright for every single thing you upload. There are some collectors out there who have wholesale bought copyrights from old images. They are uploading them - because they own the copyright. They found the estate that owns them, and purchased the rights.

 If you don't own the copyright, you can't upload it.

 We DO NOT accept public domain images.

 Uploading public domain images - or any image for which you do not own the copyright for - will result in a permanent ban from Shutterstock. There are no exceptions.



Now, I don't get it...why can you upload pictures of products and copyrighted trademarks and sell them as editorial, but you can't do the same thing with some very old and rare postcards? I'm really confused...


Sorry if the question is stupid but I'm just a beginner trying to understand the big microstock world >.<

« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2012, 02:07 »
0
here is the rules on copyright here int he United States.

http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm

Who ever said 1884 does not know they were talking about, the year was 1923

« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2012, 05:26 »
+1
But maybe it is 1884 somewhere else. Contrary to some opinions, US laws do not yet trump every other law in the world and iS is a Canadian company.

« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2012, 06:32 »
0
here is the rules on copyright here int he United States.

http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm

Who ever said 1884 does not know they were talking about, the year was 1923


Yes, it's 1923 in the USA. But because the images are made and used also in other places 1884 is a much safer bet. You americans are always lagging behind... you don't even have metric system :)
Here is some story about european copyright legistlation (the Berne Convention 1886) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works

RacePhoto

« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2012, 11:09 »
0
But maybe it is 1884 somewhere else. Contrary to some opinions, US laws do not yet trump every other law in the world and iS is a Canadian company.


Yes "maybe" do you have anything to add but that nippy reply? Maybe some data or documentation?

Yes I realize that IS is Canadian. I went and did research into the laws and found that nowhere does it say 1884 or before.

Quote
Source of this information:  http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-42/page-1.html#h-1
Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42)

plate includes

    (a) any stereotype or other plate, stone, block, mould, matrix, transfer or negative used or intended to be used for printing or reproducing copies of any work, and


-=-=-

engravings
gravure
engravings includes etchings, lithographs,
woodcuts, prints and other similar works, not
being photographs;

-=-=-


anonymous and pseudonymous works

6.1 Except as provided in section 6.2, where the identity of the author of a work is unknown, copyright in the work shall subsist for whichever of the following terms ends earlier:

    (a) a term consisting of the remainder of the calendar year of the first publication of the work and a period of fifty years following the end of that calendar year, and

    (b) a term consisting of the remainder of the calendar year of the making of the work and a period of seventy-five years following the end of that calendar year,

but where, during that term, the authors identity becomes commonly known, the term provided in section 6 applies.



I was trying to upload a woodcut from 1899 by the way, thus the references to engravings. If the postcards from the OP are not "real photo" cards and artwork, as above "not photographs" they should also fall under the same regulations and limitations.

Now if someone can explain why it's 1884, I'd be much happier and better understand the laws of Canada. For now, I can't seem to document anything that makes a reasonable argument for that date?

Yes for the US it is BEFORE 1923.

http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm

Furthermore: 95 years after publication date for 1923 through 1963. (2018 the 1923 works start going into public domain again. In 2019 = 1924, Etc. It has been on hold since the laws were revised)

Also just for the sake of interest. A 1961 Copyright Office study found that fewer than 15% of all registered copyrights were renewed. For books, the figure was even lower: 7%.


Meanwhile none of this matters for SS because they don't take anything Public Domain anymore.  :)

I suppose someone could try Postcards as Editorial on IS? Someone do that and come back and tell us what happens.

I'm not concerned with any other agencies, maybe someone else can add that information.

ps Postcards don't really have a demand, and don't sell well, just like postage stamps and other copied old paper products. But have fun.



« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2012, 11:33 »
0
yes... the SS rules regarding Public domain images is very strict :(( . they sell very good on SS... others agencies still accepts PD files but the sales are scares.

w7lwi

  • Those that don't stand up to evil enable evil.
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2012, 13:16 »
0
I have some old prints published in 1867.  I own the originals that I photographed.  SS has indicated they will not accept these, even as editorial (they are of historic value).  I'll probably put them up on Alamy as RM.

« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 18:05 »
0
I'm more confused now. I can understand it if they say it in the rules, but they say this on the rules page:

Quote
Submissions must NOT contain any copyrighted material including paintings, other copyrighted photos, copyrighted logos, or any other art/advertisements/sculptures/exhibits or audio which are copyrighted. If submitted material contains any of these or other types of copyrighted content, you must either submit releases from the copyright owners or you must mark the images as editorial.


So the postcards should be ok the way I see it. But apparently I don't see things right, because it's not only about the postcards. I tried uploading some pictures of a famous building in Japan and marked it as editorial, because that's what it said in the rules:

Quote
Editorial - These photos cannot be used for commercial purposes without securing additional rights. They include large crowds of people when it is impossible to get a photo release from each person in the crowd. It also includes buildings that are copyrighted, cars with copyrighted designs, and any photo with a copyrighted logo or property in it.


The pictures were rejected, and the reason was: This is not an editorial image. See http://submit.shutterstock.com/forum/ viewtopic.php?t=40005

And that link is dead by the way.

I don't get it anymore...they're denying their own words! Someone, please explain these rules to me...because I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown  :-\
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 18:19 by morning.light »

« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 18:44 »
0
one problem is that when SS says 'editorial', they define it as being 'newsworthy'.  the 2 words are far from synonymous, so it generates confusion

it's also common forr an image to get rejected first because it's editorial, then rejected as editorial when it's resubmitted as editorial


 

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