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Author Topic: paranoid? maybe  (Read 12549 times)

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« on: October 19, 2007, 00:06 »
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I am basically basing this on a hunch, but has anyone else had any suspicions about SS manipulating their market, giving certain members an advantage and others not so much?

I would  very much like to hear what you think about this.
 Would this be advantageous to them in any way to control the market?  If I am correct would this be ethical on their part?



« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2007, 00:44 »
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What would they get out of it?   It makes sense for them to  favour the best possible images regardless of who took it or if there is any favouring to give an extra push to people that have a great portfolio. On dreamstime I believe that the dls/image ratio is one of the factors in their popular search which makes sense to draw attention to portfolios that are generally of high quality.

« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2007, 01:39 »
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... anyone else had any suspicions about SS manipulating their market, giving certain members an advantage and others not so much?


What do you mean by 'manipulating'? Making sure that certain members' images come higher in a search? Approving their images more easily? Inspecting their images more quickly? Or something else?

Can you be more specific?

« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2007, 02:08 »
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...On dreamstime I believe that the dls/image ratio is one of the factors in their popular search ...
I think DT uses approval rate in their search sortings, too.

It's not much of a stretch to say that every agency favors their more productive contributors in as many ways as they can - this is just good business sense.

« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2007, 02:38 »
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I am basically basing this on a hunch, but has anyone else had any suspicions about SS manipulating their market, giving certain members an advantage and others not so much?

I would  very much like to hear what you think about this.
 Would this be advantageous to them in any way to control the market?  If I am correct would this be ethical on their part?



I think you are being paranoid.  I have never felt this about any site.  Some people think that istock favor exclusives in their search but I haven't seen any proof of that.  People like to make up excuses for them not having as many downloads as others.  I don't take any notice of them.  Even if the sites did give certain members an advantage, is there anything we could do about it?

« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2007, 02:49 »
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On dreamstime I believe that the dls/image ratio is one of the factors in their popular search which makes sense to draw attention to portfolios that are generally of high quality.

DL/image is definitely NOT something that is used in the Relevancy (aka Best Match) sort order.  My current DL/image is at a little over 7.  Last month it was even higher - it was around 8.  It dropped because I started uploading new images in the last month to try and counter the free-fall that my sales have had.

My sales used to be quite good on DT, but since the beginning of the year they have been on a death spiral.  I barely make anything at all on DT anymore.

« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2007, 02:54 »
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I'm pretty sure that Achilles said that it was one of the factors at one time on the DT forums.  I have a Dl/image ratio of just over 9 and my images do very well in the searches.  I think that it would make sense on DT to give higher level images a better place in the search as they make more money from them but I don't know if they do or not.
Sorry this post was about SS and it's getting sidetracked.

On dreamstime I believe that the dls/image ratio is one of the factors in their popular search which makes sense to draw attention to portfolios that are generally of high quality.

DL/image is definitely NOT something that is used in the Relevancy (aka Best Match) sort order.  My current DL/image is at a little over 7.  Last month it was even higher - it was around 8.  It dropped because I started uploading new images in the last month to try and counter the free-fall that my sales have had.

My sales used to be quite good on DT, but since the beginning of the year they have been on a death spiral.  I barely make anything at all on DT anymore.


« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 03:58 »
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I don't think it would make any business sense for them to favour 'people' over 'images'.

After all ... they're in the business of selling 'images' not 'people'.

« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2007, 09:02 »
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Yeah I felt it too! Im not sure!
Wanna be carefull with  false accusations though!

« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2007, 10:51 »
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What do you mean by 'manipulating'? Making sure that certain members' images come higher in a search? Approving their images more easily? Inspecting their images more quickly? Or something else?

Both.
One of the reasons I believe this may be true. If you look at the most popular images. Certain images always remain in the top. This is true although there are many very good similar images.

« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2007, 10:55 »
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Yeah I felt it too! Im not sure!
Wanna be carefull with  false accusations though!

Just a discussion. Perhaps all the microstocks do this sort of thing.

« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2007, 12:40 »
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Maybe they're at the top because the buyers prefer them and buy them more than other similar images.  Buyers also often go straight to the top sellers portfolios when searching for an image which would give them more downloads and better results in the searches.

« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2007, 14:57 »
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I think that it would make sense on DT to give higher level images a better place in the search as they make more money from them but I don't know if they do or not.

The way DT implemented that was never clear, and I am not a good enough detective to study that (and I don't even periodically do searches to see how the same image is performing).

It does not make sense to give a higher ranked photographer precedence over relevance.  If someone looks for "yellow car" and I have an image in which "yellow car" is in the title, description and keywords (thus almost surely being an image of a yellow car...), it doesn't make sense that my image comes behind images from great sellers if they have a series of a dozen images in which yellow and car are keywords only (because in fact the image is of a woman wearing a yellow shirt crossing the street in front of a few cars).

Regards,
Adelaide

« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2007, 16:01 »
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Most popular = most downloads  :)
....... That's why those files stay at the top, they are the most popular images.... designers/buyers determine this, not the site.

« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2007, 16:27 »
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I think that it would make sense on DT to give higher level images a better place in the search as they make more money from them but I don't know if they do or not.
If someone looks for "yellow car" and I have an image in which "yellow car" is in the title, description and keywords (thus almost surely being an image of a yellow car...), it doesn't make sense that my image comes behind images from great sellers if they have a series of a dozen images in which yellow and car are keywords only (because in fact the image is of a woman wearing a yellow shirt crossing the street in front of a few cars).

That is my beef with DT's default (Relevance aka Best Match) sorting algorithm.  It doesn't work the way you think it should work.  I agree that if you type in a search, then the results should contain all the search words in the title, description, and keywords.  But it doesn't work that way.

For example, if you search for "American United States flag", you will find that most of the results don't contain the search words in the keywords, title, and description.  As a matter of fact, I counted only five images in the first 100 results that contain all of the search words in the title, description, and keywords.

Now how is that good for a buyer?

A buyer searches for an American flag, but they get images with the following titles:

"Man with American Flag"
"United States Constitution, Bible, scales weighing"
"Constitution of the United States"
"United States Constitution, Candle, and Flag"
"US Air Force Parachuter with American Flag"
"Mount Rushmore American Flag"
"Half Staff American Flag at the United States Capitol"
"United States Capitol Building Dome"

etc, etc.

The same is true of other searches.  For example, if you want to find a Christmas tree with snow and you use the search "Christmas tree snowing", then you will get images with titles such as:

"Christmas decoration"
"Merry Christmas"
"Celtic Christmas card"
"Christmas card with space for wishes"

etc, etc.

So it seems to be taking other factors into consideration that don't seem to be giving the best results.

IMO, the old sort algorithm worked much better than this new one.

« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2007, 16:55 »
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I have just decided to run a test.   I searched for "yellow car", photos only.  Here is what I found in the first 20 images:

DT: all 20 were yellow cars. 
IS: 9 were yellow cars (if you consider also a bus and a kid's cart); 10 if you consider a road scene with a yellow bus somewhere in the composition.  Five were yellow signs or lane lines.
StockXpert: 5 were yellow cars. Many signs and lane lines, many non-yellow cars (I see one by a big photog with a lot of keyword spamming...)
BigStock: 19 were yellow cars, plus one yellow cable car. 
FT: 19 were yellow cars.
SS: 6 were yellow cars.

It may be just a happy coincidence, so I will try other tests another time.  Kudos to DT for this one, though.

Regards,
Adelaide

« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2007, 17:21 »
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I have just decided to run a test.   I searched for "yellow car", photos only.  Here is what I found in the first 20 images:

It may be just a happy coincidence, so I will try other tests another time.  Kudos to DT for this one, though.

Regards,
Adelaide
What did this test show about SS favoring some artists over others in the search?

As for the original topic. I highly doubt SS would purposely favor one artist over another. The much more likely explanation is that buyers like the one artist's work over the other's, and that is reflected in the search results.


« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2007, 17:30 »
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Everybody is talking about the search engine!

But how about the images that appear on the frontpage?
Or in the lightboxes?

« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2007, 00:22 »
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But how about the images that appear on the frontpage?
Or in the lightboxes?
What about them?

« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2007, 08:26 »
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But how about the images that appear on the frontpage?
Or in the lightboxes?

I don't criticize a site for giving more exposure to certain members in their front page.  I think however that not every site gives preference to exclusive members or to a certain small group of high sellers.  I'm ok that they don't give me that priviledge, with my mediocre portfolio.  I don't have anything "wow" - well, maybe a couple could be picked, but there are so many.

In FT, in that part at the bottom where they show many image, I had two of mine (one in Easter and one in Valentine's Day).  FP also put a link to my Christmas collection in their front page last year (not an image though).  I was flattered.

IS picks exclusive members for the entry page (before you log in). I'm not so sure about the Image of the Week (this week's is indeed by an exclusive, and so is the Artist of the Week). In DT, the featured photographer this week is not exclusive, but is one with a very artistic portfolio and a high dld/image average (2.5 times mine - it must say something!).

Regards,
Adelaide

digiology

« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2007, 12:35 »
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Everybody is talking about the search engine!

But how about the images that appear on the frontpage?
Or in the lightboxes?

I thought I should add my "paranoid" two cents...One thing I noticed since I started participating in the MSG istock lightboxes is my files seem to appear/disappear when sorted by best match. When sorted by photographer they all appear. Does best match HIDE files??? (I thought they were just thrown to the back - it wouldn't make sense to hide stuff)

Probably just a glitch - but I have noticed it a couple of times now  :-\

« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2007, 16:39 »
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More paranoia,
What if employees of SS have family or friends work were in the mix? Is it not likely their images could and would be favored?

There could be reasons that we are unaware of for them to do this kind of favoritism.

I once worked for a company where I found from the statements of a self proclaimed media mogul, that many news stories and information delivered to the public through the media was often actually just an underhanded way to promote products, companies and ideas to the population. True story. I personally was shocked to find that this was done.





« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2007, 16:47 »
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lol.......

« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2007, 18:57 »
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Most popular = most downloads  :)
....... That's why those files stay at the top, they are the most popular images.... designers/buyers determine this, not the site.

I don't buy this statement. I have seen multiple images amongst the popular images that have their equal or better.


PaulieWalnuts

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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2007, 20:35 »
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I think they'll do whatever makes sense to make more money both for the company and individual reviewer.

Why wouldn't it be possible for agencies to rate contributors based on sales probability to give preference to "VIPs"? Casinos do it. Airlines do it.

If you have person A who has a 90%+ approval rate, submits a ton of stuff, and sells a ton of stuff, and person B who has a 50% acceptance rate and doesn't sell a whole lot, wouldn't it make sense to spend more time on the As and leave the Bs in the review que until As are taken care of? Or have the As show up higher in searches? The agency would make more money spending time on As.

How well would a photographer do if they spent equal time on the Big 6 and the other 50 new sites? Of course you give preference to what makes you more money. Certainly the agencies do too.


 

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