Author Topic: Property Release (Read 9430 times)

brm1949 · « **on:** December 04, 2012, 15:51 »

Just lost my shutterstock account due to my ignorance of property releases. I would drive through a local cemetery and take photos. Never dawned on me that I was infringing on private property. Costly mistake. This is a warning for anyone else not up to speed on all copyright issues. Kicking myself into oblivion, God I'm sick. Deleted all images from every site I had them up on but shutterstock shut me down when I asked for bigstock to remove all my images. Was fun while it lasted.

Poncke · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2012, 15:54 »

Huh? That shucks but if they approved them, arent they to blame also? And why shut down your account when you came to them? And why not just shut down said images, not your whole account.

brm1949 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2012, 15:59 »

I did on shutterstock but since bigstock is part of them, they shut down the account on shutterstock also. My mistake. Bigstock makes it difficult to delete images so I just asked them to shut it down completely. They honored that request.

luissantos84 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2012, 15:59 »

seriously? you got your account blocked because of a few cemetery pics? what on earth they need property releases? they are public places like churches, they were paid with people money not some private company, were you shooting the names on the graves?

sorry to hear about your situation, hope you got it fixed soon

tab62 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:02 »

If I am understanding this correctly- he has bigstock to shutdown his account thus they contacted Shutter (their big brother) and shut down that account as well since they are joined at the hip so to speak...

luissantos84 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:04 »

what I don't understand is why they have over 28k searching for "cemetery"

brm1949 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:05 »

That was my thinking but this cemetery have photography rules which I wasn't aware of and I guess they have it posted at the entrance which I missed. I was told there cemetery is intellectual property. I have to respect that since thats what we do. My ignorance of there policies cost me. Just warning everyone who is not aware as I wasn't, be aware of what you shoot is not copyright protected.

tab62 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:07 »

ask bigstock and shutter to open your account and simply remove the pics...

luissantos84 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:07 »

Quote from: brm1949 on December 04, 2012, 16:05

That was my thinking but this cemetery have photography rules which I wasn't aware of and I guess they have it posted at the entrance which I missed. I was told there cemetery is intellectual property. I have to respect that since thats what we do. My ignorance of there policies cost me. Just warning everyone who is not aware as I wasn't, be aware of what you shoot is not copyright protected.

they cannot block your account because of a few pictures, you do have a nice wildlife portfolio, I really hope you get this sorted out asap

velocicarpo · « **Reply #9 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:12 »

Sadly I heard of many cases like this and had this happen to a friend of mine too. In his case it was an superficial similarity with a existing design. To me it looks like shutterstock does not really care about contributors if they are new or small (in almost any case I know of the Contribs have had a small Port or had been new).

Although we never know what really happened in this case, the amount of complaints like this appearing makes me wish for a little more transparency and sensitivity from SS.

Poncke · « **Reply #10 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:15 »

But surely they contact you, like Alamy does, and ask if you have them maybe? And if you havent, cant they just take down the photos in question?

I hope Anthony or Vincent from SS read this and chime in. Sounds way too harsh if you ask me.

ShadySue · « **Reply #11 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:29 »

Quote from: brm1949 on December 04, 2012, 15:59

I did on shutterstock but since bigstock is part of them, they shut down the account on shutterstock also. My mistake. Bigstock makes it difficult to delete images so I just asked them to shut it down completely. They honored that request.

That rings warning bells. Why shouldn't you be able to delete your own images?

(Hope you get this sorted out ASAP)

brm1949 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:30 »

I was told that after they look at the situation I could be reinstated. I did remove all the images in question from shutterstock. I hope it works out but I understand the copyright issue. I hope it works out. I need that income.

velocicarpo · « **Reply #13 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:35 »

Quote from: brm1949 on December 04, 2012, 16:30

I was told that after they look at the situation I could be reinstated. I did remove all the images in question from shutterstock. I hope it works out but I understand the copyright issue. I hope it works out. I need that income.

so there is some hope left? I guess I would simply call them... (do they still hide their phone#?)

ruxpriencdiam · « **Reply #14 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:47 »

Churches and cemetery's are "private property".

Private property is the employment, control, ownership, ability to dispose of, and bequeath land, capital, and other forms of property by legal persons and privately owned firms. Private property is distinguishable from public property and collective property, which refers to assets owned by a state, community, or government rather than by individuals or a business entity.

The church property is considered private property that has been paid for by the congregation but it is also tax exempt and therefore is not subject to property taxes.

luissantos84 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 04, 2012, 16:52 »

there isn't a single church or cemetery in iStock technical wiki

(http://www.istockphoto.com/tutorial_copyright_list.php)

brm1949 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 04, 2012, 17:13 »

Thank God.

They worked it out for me.

Dear Bruce,

Thank you for your explanation. We have reactivated your Shutterstock portfolio. Please allow 72 hours for your images to refresh.

Also, we can reinstate your Bigstock account if you wish, and remove any images which are problematic. You would have to give us a list of image ID numbers for removal. Please let us know if you would like to reactivate your account and manually delete the images in question.

Regards,

Bigstock Compliance

Poncke · « **Reply #17 on:** December 04, 2012, 17:17 »

Congrats.

ShadySue · « **Reply #18 on:** December 04, 2012, 17:21 »

Quote from: ruxpriencdiam on December 04, 2012, 16:47

Churches and cemetery's are "private property".

Private property is the employment, control, ownership, ability to dispose of, and bequeath land, capital, and other forms of property by legal persons and privately owned firms. Private property is distinguishable from public property and collective property, which refers to assets owned by a state, community, or government rather than by individuals or a business entity.

The church property is considered private property that has been paid for by the congregation but it is also tax exempt and therefore is not subject to property taxes.

Did the OP say it was a church graveyard? Our town cemetary is municipal property an in itself is no more subject to copyright than the local park. However, the agencies are understandably wary about having legible names on gravestones, even old, in commercial collections. But you could photograph for editorial, if it was someone famous' grave, for example. Actually even our local church cemetary might now be council (public) property. There's a shortcut path through it and it's maintained by the Council, not the Church.

Thank goodness it's been sorted out. That was an over-reaction.

POI: is it compuslory for images put on SS also to be in BS?

brm1949 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 04, 2012, 17:31 »

No it was a very large cemetery here with a lot of famous people buried and some interesting statues. Very scenic actually.

oxman · « **Reply #20 on:** December 04, 2012, 17:52 »

just resub as editorial

ruxpriencdiam · « **Reply #21 on:** December 04, 2012, 21:49 »

Now Arlington National National cemetery is a different story.

RacePhoto · « **Reply #22 on:** December 04, 2012, 23:40 »

Quote from: brm1949 on December 04, 2012, 17:31

No it was a very large cemetery here with a lot of famous people buried and some interesting statues. Very scenic actually.

Can you say which one so someone else doesn't have the same problem in the future or think of sending in a photo from that place. That would be very helpful.

Hollywood Forever Memorial Park comes to mind as a place that would have restrictions, but that's just a guess.

Quote from: ruxpriencdiam on December 04, 2012, 21:49

Now Arlington National National cemetery is a different story.

Run by the US Government, owned by the US Government, should be public?

ShadySue · « **Reply #23 on:** December 05, 2012, 09:11 »

Quote from: RacePhoto on December 04, 2012, 23:40

Quote from: ruxpriencdiam on December 04, 2012, 21:49
Now Arlington National National cemetery is a different story.

Run by the US Government, owned by the US Government, should be public?

437 commercial photos from Arlington on iStock might suggest so.

brm1949 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 05, 2012, 12:43 »

Forest Lawn Cemetery

Semmick Photo · « **Reply #25 on:** March 12, 2015, 09:59 »

Dont want to open a new thread.

Do interior images of a church need a release?

This church:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensemble_conventuel_des_Jacobins

Difydave · « **Reply #26 on:** March 12, 2015, 10:41 »

The whole thing of "private property" as in land or buildings owned by someone or something, is fraught with difficulty when selling images. as far as I can tell.
We might consider a place owned by a local council to be "public property" and indeed it is, but whether it is from a point of view of being allowed there to take shots which are to be sold, is another matter. Certainly if there are doors or gates on it, and public access is restricted in some way, you have to ask yourself if you are OK shooting there or not.
Me being paranoid, I generally these days try to stick to the rule of never shooting on anywhere which could remotely be thought of as private ground, unless it really is anonymous.

wordplanet · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2015, 13:47 »

Glad they reinstated you. Couldn't you have just had them re-labeled as editorial?

Property releases and when you need them is much trickier than model releases, and while they are often not necessary, many of the sites don't want to take a chance. I had a skyline where they made me take all the building names off for fear of trademark violations, but they were explicit about what they wanted me to do and I did it. I didn't think SS would just trash your entire account for a few iffy photos, they are a lot more reasonable than that. Glad it worked out.

I've done some cemetery shots - the police showed up one night while I was shooting a full moon over graves at midnight - fortunately it was okay but a little scary to see lights flaring and realize that two police cars were coming for me - I was on assignment and never thought to contact the caretaker - they expected drunk kids, so were nicer to me with my tripod though they did have to check with my editor- I usually make gravestones into illustrations to avoid the issues with names, etc, but have received rejections saying I should upload the originals. So, it's always a bit of a challenge. They do nicely at Halloween

unnonimus · « **Reply #28 on:** March 31, 2015, 13:09 »

a sign that says 'No Photography Permitted' means absolutely nothing. only a court of law can determine if photography is permitted somewhere, and it has to be based on a federal law, a state law, or a local ordinance. a private business putting up its own rules means absolutely nothing anywhere in the world.

anything that is in the public view is usually legally filmable, in almost every country.

cemetaries cannot be copyrighted, because they are not creative works. the creative work is your photo of the cemetery, not the cemetery itself.

I sell my cemetery videos and you should sell yours too, regardless of what the cemetery says.

ShadySue · « **Reply #29 on:** March 31, 2015, 14:18 »

Quote from: unnonimus on March 31, 2015, 13:09

anything that is in the public view is usually legally filmable, in almost every country.

Seems like a very sweeping statement.
But even if true, filmable doesn't mean you can sell the image commercially.
In any case, agencies usually err on the side of caution.

ruxpriencdiam · « **Reply #30 on:** March 31, 2015, 20:36 »

Anything that is not government funded is private property.

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #31 on:** March 31, 2015, 21:10 »

While true, it's not that easy. But private property is protected. You can't sell or use images commercially.

However if you are standing on public property (not window peeping or invading privacy) you can take photos into private property like Cemeteries - In the US.

There are so many complications and nuances, where are you = what country, Etc. no simple answer is right.

But down to the original question which is bringing back a thread from the dead from 2012. If there's a sign and it says something to the effect that you are not allowed to take photographs in that enclosed area, and it's private property. You Can't sell the photographs commercially. You can take all you want.

Fine point but they can't prevent the taking of photos. But they can control the use or distribution.

No cameras allowed is a different statement.

Quote from: ruxpriencdiam on March 31, 2015, 20:36

Anything that is not government funded is private property.

ruxpriencdiam · « **Reply #32 on:** March 31, 2015, 22:11 »

Quote from: Uncle Pete on March 31, 2015, 21:10

While true, it's not that easy. But private property is protected. You can't sell or use images commercially.If you are taking the images from public property you allowed to sell them as long as they are not of people with a reasonable expectation of privacy

However if you are standing on public property (not window peeping or invading privacy) you can take photos into private property like Cemeteries - In the US.True, same for most anywhere else.

There are so many complications and nuances, where are you = what country, Etc. no simple answer is right.One federal law covers pretty much all of the US.

But down to the original question which is bringing back a thread from the dead from 2012. If there's a sign and it says something to the effect that you are not allowed to take photographs in that enclosed area, and it's private property. You Can't sell the photographs commercially. You can take all you want.No you cant any sign on private property telling you you cant take images then no photographing allowed or selling them, the owner of the property can set the rules and you must abide by them.

Fine point but they can't prevent the taking of photos. But they can control the use or distribution.Yes they can prevent you from taking photos while on private property.

No cameras allowed is a different statement.

Quote from: ruxpriencdiam on March 31, 2015, 20:36
Anything that is not government funded is private property.

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Author Topic: Property Release (Read 9430 times)

brm1949

Poncke

brm1949

luissantos84

tab62

luissantos84

brm1949

tab62

luissantos84

velocicarpo

Poncke

ShadySue

brm1949

velocicarpo

ruxpriencdiam

luissantos84

brm1949

Poncke

ShadySue

brm1949

oxman

ruxpriencdiam

RacePhoto

ShadySue

brm1949

Semmick Photo

Difydave

wordplanet

unnonimus

ShadySue

ruxpriencdiam

Uncle Pete

ruxpriencdiam

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