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Microstock Photography Forum - General => General Stock Discussion => Topic started by: Elenathewise on May 12, 2014, 11:42

Title: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Elenathewise on May 12, 2014, 11:42
I often get emails from people asking if they can use one or few of my images for free on their web sites, blogs, their future company logos, and so on. Usually what's offered in return is "credit" - they promise to put my name next to the photo, or put a link to my website.
It really puzzles me. You can buy a small size image for a price of a coffee these days. No one walks into a coffee shop and asks for a cup of coffee for free and in return just offers to tell their friends that they got a coffee from that shop. It doesn't even occur to people. Why do they think they can use the product of my work for free? I don't understand. I don't care about credit  - if I wanted to be famous, I wouldn't be shooting stock, plus I doubt very much that my name on their webpage would make any difference whatsoever. If I was begging on the street, they'd drop a few coins into my cup - but they wouldn't pay the same few coins for the image they like!
How did this attitude even come into existence??
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Jo Ann Snover on May 12, 2014, 11:49
I don't know where it came from, but I have had a few of these. In one case they clearly knew the image was for sale as they mentioned finding it on one of the stock sites! Perhaps they think it's worth a try in case someone says yes?

In one situation where my images were licensed for use in a home remodeling book, the book was put on hold for a couple of years during the worst of the US economy's recent crash. When the project was resumed, there was a different person in charge and they sent me e-mail asking me for the correct credit line for my images. When I said that I sold my images, not gave them away and that this had been clearly spelled out in earlier discussions, they immediately said OK and talked money. If it had been a homeowner they were dealing with, they wouldn't have paid.

I guess that businesses always look to pay the absolute minimum possible :(
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Shelma1 on May 12, 2014, 11:49
Artist dies of exposure. Story at 11.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Pixart on May 12, 2014, 11:49
Makes ya feel like responding - You have an Iphone, why don't you go out and shoot it yourself and see what you get it for free!

Maybe in these days of free music and streaming movies (note I didn't say legal) they feel like they are doing a favour by offering to give credit rather than just right clicking the same image somewhere. 
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Shelma1 on May 12, 2014, 11:52
It happens to everyone involved in the arts. This weekend I was at a party hosted by a jazz band that's toured all over the world. They get the same stupid requests..free work in exchange for "exposure."
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: shotupdave on May 12, 2014, 11:53
I have been asked that same very question or to actually come out and shoot custom photos for them. When they have a service or retail store i usually reply that would be glad to do it for free. But the next statement is, I need "blank" amount work done at my house, can you come over and do the work for free. They always say no of course saying that they cannot do that since they need to charge to feed their kids, pay the bills etc. I tell them that I am in the same boat as they are this cannot allow my work to be used for free.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: ginasanders on May 12, 2014, 11:56
I often get emails from people asking if they can use one or few of my images for free on their web sites, blogs, their future company logos, and so on. Usually what's offered in return is "credit" - they promise to put my name next to the photo, or put a link to my website.
It really puzzles me. You can buy a small size image for a price of a coffee these days. No one walks into a coffee shop and asks for a cup of coffee for free and in return just offers to tell their friends that they got a coffee from that shop. It doesn't even occur to people. Why do they think they can use the product of my work for free? I don't understand. I don't care about credit  - if I wanted to be famous, I wouldn't be shooting stock, plus I doubt very much that my name on their webpage would make any difference whatsoever. If I was begging on the street, they'd drop a few coins into my cup - but they wouldn't pay the same few coins for the image they like!
How did this attitude even come into existence??


Take a look here:  http://photoprofessionals.wordpress.com/ (http://photoprofessionals.wordpress.com/)
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: EmberMike on May 12, 2014, 12:01
Amazingly I've never had a request for a free image. I've had requests for free work, graphic design jobs, etc., but never for a free image to use.

On the scales of douche-baggery I actually rank "Please work for free" people just ahead of the "I'll pay you, but I'm not going to tell you yet that it will be in 6 months" people. Just got finished chasing a client around for work done in November. Cashed the final check last week. And of course it was a rush job back in November, 2-week turnaround.

At least the people asking for free work are upfront about it. Have to give them a couple of points for honesty.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Elenathewise on May 12, 2014, 12:04
What bothers me is that it even occurs to them to ask. If I get emails about it, it's to the email address listed on my personal business site where my photos are for sale. So they know I sell photos and it's my business, and yet instead of spending a few bucks they'd rather send me lengthy emails. Does anyone ever says "yes" to requests like that?
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: EmberMike on May 12, 2014, 12:10
...Does anyone ever says "yes" to requests like that?

I'm sure some people do. Probably not pros, though. Would love to know how often guys like Sean gets these requests.

I respond to every request, but never with a "yes". I've just sped up the response process by having some pre-written responses ready to go. Copy and paste, just takes a few seconds and I feel like I'm doing a little community service by helping someone understand why it's not cool to ask for free work.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on May 12, 2014, 12:25
I've gotten a couple, but I normally just point them to where they can license it, end of story.

I did give an image to a sorority one time who was doing a charity Christmas cd and they sent me a copy of the cd.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: bunhill on May 12, 2014, 12:25
How did this attitude even come into existence??

I don't think I can actually see a lot of difference between getting zero and getting less than $1 :)

Often doing something for free leads to paid work. People working for free is a great no - strings way of finding out that you can work with them.  Anyhow people have always done work for free in the world of photography. So it is quite normal for potential customers to, at least, ask. In the late 80s and early 90s, certainly in London, it was normal for magazines not to pay - but you got a credit. You were lucky if you knew someone with a contact on the magazine and they could get you published. And you would do a really good job for them too because you would be wanting the tear-sheets. And if you wanted an internship then that meant working for free - and hoping that you could maybe pick up some assisting on the back of that.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: wordplanet on May 12, 2014, 12:33

I don't think I can actually see a lot of difference between getting zero and getting less than $1 :)


99 cents x 1,000 downloads = $990.00
$0 x 1,000 downloads = $0

Now do you see the difference?

Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: bunhill on May 12, 2014, 12:40

I don't think I can actually see a lot of difference between getting zero and getting less than $1 :)


99 cents x 1,000 downloads = $990.00
$0 x 1,000 downloads = $0

Now do you see the difference?

I am not suggesting that you always work for free. I am pointing out that working for free is sometimes worth considering. And you should never be offended if someone asks - because it is a perfectly normal request.

Also - 1000 downloads at less than $1 is more or less working for free. Where as 1000 downloads some of which are for less than $1 but most of which are for very much more is a thing potentially worth bothering with.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Ron on May 12, 2014, 12:44
Seriously Bunhill... typical.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Ron on May 12, 2014, 12:48
How did this attitude even come into existence??

I don't think I can actually see a lot of difference between getting zero and getting less than $1 :)

Often doing something for free leads to paid work. People working for free is a great no - strings way of finding out that you can work with them.  Anyhow people have always done work for free in the world of photography. So it is quite normal for potential customers to, at least, ask. In the late 80s and early 90s, certainly in London, it was normal for magazines not to pay - but you got a credit. You were lucky if you knew someone with a contact on the magazine and they could get you published. And you would do a really good job for them too because you would be wanting the tear-sheets. And if you wanted an internship then that meant working for free - and hoping that you could maybe pick up some assisting on the back of that.
Here, 1800 946 197 call adobe and ask if you can get a free subscription to the cloud and tell them it might lead to a paid subscription somewhere down the line. Come back and let us know how you get on.

Why do you antagonize your colleagues?
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: jefftakespics2 on May 12, 2014, 12:49
I tried this with my bank. I told them if they would let me use their money for free I would tell everyone where I got the money from. Free advertising for them.They called the police.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Shelma1 on May 12, 2014, 12:50

I don't think I can actually see a lot of difference between getting zero and getting less than $1 :)


99 cents x 1,000 downloads = $990.00
$0 x 1,000 downloads = $0

Now do you see the difference?

I am not suggesting that you always work for free. I am pointing out that working for free is sometimes worth considering. And you should never be offended if someone asks - because it is a perfectly normal request.

Also - 1000 downloads at less than $1 is more or less working for free. Where as 1000 downloads some of which are for less than $1 but most of which are for very much more is a thing potentially worth bothering with.

If it takes me an hour to draw something and I make $990 from 1,000 dls, I make $990/hour. Which is exactly the same as working for free, yes, I see your point.  ::)
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: bunhill on May 12, 2014, 12:54
Seriously Bunhill... typical.

Typical of what ? The most interesting job I ever had, I started out working there for free. All I got was travel expenses. And some of the best paid annual report work I have had in the past few years started out with me doing a favour for a friend of someone else who happened to work at a different company.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Ron on May 12, 2014, 12:59
Seriously Bunhill... typical.

Typical of what ? The most interesting job I ever had, I started out working there for free. All I got was travel expenses. And some of the best paid annual report work I have had in the past few years started out with me doing a favour for a friend of someone else who happened to work at a different company.
Typical you. Always 180 degrees on what the OP is about. Doesnt matter what the topic is, you are always the opposite.

These are seasoned pros being asked to work for free. Do you work for free now? No. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: bunhill on May 12, 2014, 13:01
These are seasoned pros being asked to work for free.

Well then they will know that sometimes working for free is normal in the world of photography.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Red Dove on May 12, 2014, 13:13
These are seasoned pros being asked to work for free.

Well then they will know that sometimes working for free is normal in the world of photography.

Can you let me have your details please? Next time somebody asks me to work for free I can politely decline and point them in your direction.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Difydave on May 12, 2014, 13:19
Work for free at my business. No I don't think so thanks. It's hard enough to make a living as a one man band without giving away freebies.
"Work for free until you want paying and then we'll find someone else to work for free instead of you"
Internships might be fair enough. As long as you're learning something. Certainly before WWII you often had to pay for an apprenticeship. I believe my my grandfather paid for my mother to be an apprentice hairdresser in the 30s.
As far as the rest is concerned, I wish that self employed people would realise that doing work for free or even too cheaply often damages the the trade or profession they are working in as it makes it more difficult for others to charge realistic prices.
"Start off cheap to get work then put up my prices later" Normally results in someone working cheaply for a couple of years, and then packing it in because there's no money to be made.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: bunhill on May 12, 2014, 13:36
These are seasoned pros being asked to work for free.

Well then they will know that sometimes working for free is normal in the world of photography.

Can you let me have your details please? Next time somebody asks me to work for free I can politely decline and point them in your direction.

Surely you would not rule out ever doing a thing for free ? Suppose you realised that it would be a really good way of getting a foot in the door somewhere you wanted to.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Ron on May 12, 2014, 13:39
.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on May 12, 2014, 13:42
Surely you would not rule out ever doing a thing for free ? Suppose you realised that it would be a really good way of getting a foot in the door somewhere you wanted to.

What is "getting in the door"?

Is that "We'll give you 4 paid gigs if you throw in the first at no-cost as a try out" or "Hey, some random dude shot our main article at no cost - sweet!  We'll call him again when we want something for free"?
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Dook on May 12, 2014, 13:58
I often get emails from people asking if they can use one or few of my images for free on their web sites, blogs, their future company logos, and so on. Usually what's offered in return is "credit" - they promise to put my name next to the photo, or put a link to my website.
It really puzzles me. You can buy a small size image for a price of a coffee these days. No one walks into a coffee shop and asks for a cup of coffee for free and in return just offers to tell their friends that they got a coffee from that shop. It doesn't even occur to people. Why do they think they can use the product of my work for free? I don't understand. I don't care about credit  - if I wanted to be famous, I wouldn't be shooting stock, plus I doubt very much that my name on their webpage would make any difference whatsoever. If I was begging on the street, they'd drop a few coins into my cup - but they wouldn't pay the same few coins for the image they like!
How did this attitude even come into existence??

I have the same problem, like all of us. But maybe you get even more of these emails because there is a Free Images section on your web site. I don't know why, but that was the first thing I noticed when I clicked on you web site. I was looking for Images section, but there isn't one, only Prints and Free images. If somebody wants to buy an image it's hard to figure out how.

EDIT. Sorry, there are galleries on the right side, didn't see it at first. But, there is word Free again.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Red Dove on May 12, 2014, 14:00
These are seasoned pros being asked to work for free.

Well then they will know that sometimes working for free is normal in the world of photography.

Can you let me have your details please? Next time somebody asks me to work for free I can politely decline and point them in your direction.

Surely you would not rule out ever doing a thing for free ? Suppose you realised that it would be a really good way of getting a foot in the door somewhere you wanted to.

I won't take my clothes off or have sex with anyone to get a foot in the door either.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: EmberMike on May 12, 2014, 14:16
Surely you would not rule out ever doing a thing for free ? Suppose you realised that it would be a really good way of getting a foot in the door somewhere you wanted to.

It depends on how you want to walk through that door, if it even opens after you got that foot in.

I'd rather walk through as the guy who gets paid for what I do, and not as the guy who did a freebie and is now expected to work for nothing or for far less than what I'm worth.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: cthoman on May 12, 2014, 14:18
I could see myself doing more free work or discounted work if I got paid a lot and wanted to work with new or less financially affluent clients. But, I'm typically not getting paid a ton for jobs, so it's hard not to charge most of the time.

I did do a quick alteration to a stock illustration because a mom wanted a robot dinosaur ballerina for her daughter's birthday. Even if it never sells again, I couldn't resist making that.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: EmberMike on May 12, 2014, 14:29

I should clarify... I won't do free work for anyone other than organizations I choose to volunteer my time with. And not for some speculative possibility of future paid work or anything. I do volunteer work (graphic design, marketing support, book layouts) for a non-profit youth scout organization.

But I view that as in a different category of "free".
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: bunhill on May 12, 2014, 14:31
I'd rather walk through as the guy who gets paid for what I do, and not as the guy who did a freebie and is now expected to work for nothing or for far less than what I'm worth.

People often take a much more lowly and less well paid position somewhere they want to get in. That's normal. Eg the whole hierarchy of people in kitchens - also artisans etc.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: mlwinphoto on May 12, 2014, 14:56
Isn't Getty advocating the concept of 'free'?  It'll be interesting if we start getting more requests, at least from bloggers, for freebies.  And, yes, I'm aware of the embed concept but don't really give a d*mn about Getty's reasoning behind this.

I'm in the process of setting up my Symbiostock site.  When it came time to decide what to charge for the blog size I actually had to struggle with what should have been a rather easy decision.

I have been asked for freebies in exchange for credit line and have always turned down the requests.....credit lines don't do squat for you, in my experience anyway.  They can give credit line in addition to payment.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: EmberMike on May 12, 2014, 15:05
People often take a much more lowly and less well paid position somewhere they want to get in. That's normal. Eg the whole hierarchy of people in kitchens - also artisans etc.

Sure that's normal. For people new to a business/career. Should an established, experienced professional have to start over every time they get a new job?
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: bunhill on May 12, 2014, 15:16
Should an established, experienced professional have to start over every time they get a new job?

Every time ? No. But should people always be open to potential opportunities without always being bothered about money ? Yes. Of course. Because that is what being positive and open minded and optimistic is all about.

These are not all or nothing scenarios.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Shelma1 on May 12, 2014, 15:19
Should an established, experienced professional have to start over every time they get a new job?

Every time ? No. But should people always be open to potential opportunities without always being bothered about money ? Yes. Of course. Because that is what being positive and open minded and optimistic is all about.

These are not all or nothing scenarios.

I'm positive and optimistic when I'm paid for my work. The more I'm paid the more optimistic I feel.

Professionals get paid by professionals.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on May 12, 2014, 15:24
Ah, that always makes me laugh.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Mantis on May 12, 2014, 16:53
I've gotten a couple, but I normally just point them to where they can license it, end of story.

I did give an image to a sorority one time who was doing a charity Christmas cd and they sent me a copy of the cd.

Is that all you were asking for? ;) ;)
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Mantis on May 12, 2014, 16:58
Each year I do charity work for the Epilepsy foundation here in Orange County.  I shoot, process and resize for them....into full rez and another folder for web use.  The offer to pay me, but it's one way I feel honored to give back.  I am currently fighting with a dive mag over a two page spread with one of my images, but no credits given to any agency and they certainly didn't get it from me.  It comes across as if it's the author's work and isn't.  They somehow got the pic I suspect legit, but ignoring my emails is very suspect.  Respect for copyright is getting so loose that it will, if not already, become uncontrollable.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: YadaYadaYada on May 12, 2014, 17:55
.

Right to the point. ;D

If I could get a free cup of coffee for a free use of my photo I'd call that a good trade.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: dingles on May 12, 2014, 18:18
I've done non-paid work for non profits. I tell myself it is for a good cause, but I often find it that 'free' clients tend to be the pickiest...which seems backwards. There has been several occasions when I finished said work not feeling particularly appreciated. Now giving an image away that is out there for sale, typically I'd say no, unless I felt there could be real exposure... Almost always never feel the latter.

With that said, I am still open to doing non-paid work if I feel the cause is good and if it's something I find interesting or can grow from
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Shelma1 on May 12, 2014, 19:18
I'll tell you my "almost free" story. I was asked to do a brochure for a church, and they had a very tiny budget for design (nonprofit, right?). So I agreed to do the job for next to nothing. Well, the job expanded to 3 times the original size, but the tiny budget stayed the same. Then they invited me to a meeting at the church. It was in one of the most exclusive (rich) communities in NJ, surrounded by huge estates with thoroughbred horses, pet llamas, etc. And they proudly showed off the just-installed MARBLE floors and a three million dollar pipe organ. Not only that, but they decided the brochure should be more luxurious, so they were paying the printer twice as much for heavyweight paper. AND flying in an organist from Italy to play the new pipe organ for the first time in a special concert. In other words, they were paying everyone super-full-price for their super-expensive work...except me.  >:(
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Elenathewise on May 12, 2014, 20:51

I have the same problem, like all of us. But maybe you get even more of these emails because there is a Free Images section on your web site. I don't know why, but that was the first thing I noticed when I clicked on you web site. I was looking for Images section, but there isn't one, only Prints and Free images. If somebody wants to buy an image it's hard to figure out how.

EDIT. Sorry, there are galleries on the right side, didn't see it at first. But, there is word Free again.

Ya I should get rid of that. I while ago I tried putting up a page of small res images for free download to see if this can attract traffic (it doesn't really). Don't think it's the cause though -  I was getting requests for free image use before that too. I see some people here advocate working for free as a way to get a job or assignment. My question is - who pays your bills while you do free work? My daughter volunteered for community hours and ended up getting a summer job - cool, but I was paying all her expenses while she was volunteering.
I like Shelma1's story. It's what p*sses me off most. People spend a lot of money on everything from food to luxury items, and somehow there is this idea that a photographer will work for free or next to nothing. Try asking your plumber to fix your toilet for free - tell him if he does a good job you will consider paying him next time... I am glad most of the people say no to this kind of thing. Stock  images costing a few dollars not a few hundreds these days  - why not just pay a very small fee and license image properly? I suspect Getty's image giveaway for bloggers is making things worse - instead of educating people that  a stock image is a product and you have to pay for it.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: w7lwi on May 12, 2014, 21:00
Sometimes it does pay off to do free work.

I was doing some free shooting for AARP here in Nevada when they asked me to cover a visit by Pres. Obama where some AARP personnel would be in the audience wearing their organization's shirts.  Got an event press pass through them and was one of those guys you see sitting on the ground down in front of the stage/podium.  After the formal event he held a short press conference in a private area and I was able to shoot that as well.  I gave AARP the images they wanted and they said I could have the rest to do with as I liked.  Several hundreds of dollars and downloads later, I think that free gig has more than paid for itself.  And the images are still selling once or twice a week.

Now if I could just figure out how to get more well paying free gigs like this, I'd be set for life.  ;D
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: cidepix on May 12, 2014, 21:08
the same thing happened to me a few times..

on one occasion, I responded very rudely and probably that was the only time being rude made me extremely happy.. :) now that I remembered it, made me happy again after all these years..

being rude is great when the right person comes along :)

(it was a face to face conversation.. I don't think being rude on the internet is a good idea.. it's unnecessary)
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: klsbear on May 12, 2014, 21:28
Sometimes it does pay off to do free work.

I was doing some free shooting for AARP here in Nevada when they asked me to cover a visit by Pres. Obama where some AARP personnel would be in the audience wearing their organization's shirts.  Got an event press pass through them and was one of those guys you see sitting on the ground down in front of the stage/podium.  After the formal event he held a short press conference in a private area and I was able to shoot that as well.  I gave AARP the images they wanted and they said I could have the rest to do with as I liked.  Several hundreds of dollars and downloads later, I think that free gig has more than paid for itself.  And the images are still selling once or twice a week.

Now if I could just figure out how to get more well paying free gigs like this, I'd be set for life.  ;D

The difference here is that they offered you something of value in return - access to the event that you otherwise would not have and unrestricted use of the remaining images.  Additionally, it was something and someone with high commercial value.  They were not asking you to shoot a local chapter leader for free.  You bartered your time and some images for access access to the event.

Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: shotupdave on May 12, 2014, 22:22
Years ago, when I was a young pup. I made a mistake by agreeing to do a wedding for free for a old friend. What did it get me, more requests to do the same. I did not get a single paid job for doing that. What it did get me was a whole bag of sorrow because I turned down the other requests. People could nt understand that the wedding season is a short period and I had to put money in the bank during the spring and summer to pay for my bills I had during the winter
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: ComfortEagle2095 on May 12, 2014, 22:29
I suppose each of us knows best the value of our work.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: elvinstar on May 12, 2014, 23:16
you should never be offended if someone asks - because it is a perfectly normal request.

I agree 100%. People ask physicians and mechanics for opinions at parties, why should photographers or illustrators be any different? Just because you don't say yes doesn't mean that you have to be offended. Think of it as a compliment, turn them down politely, and go on about your business.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: nicku on May 13, 2014, 02:18
I work for ''free'' only in the fallowing situations:

1. Closest family events.
2. Personal photo shoots (but only if they sign a MR)
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Ron on May 13, 2014, 02:42
you should never be offended if someone asks - because it is a perfectly normal request.

I agree 100%. People ask physicians and mechanics for opinions at parties, why should photographers or illustrators be any different? Just because you don't say yes doesn't mean that you have to be offended. Think of it as a compliment, turn them down politely, and go on about your business.
Asking for an opinion is not asking to fix a car for free. I give people advice for free all the time when they need to know something about photography. Asking for an opinion or asking for free goods or services is two different things.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: pixsol on May 13, 2014, 02:51
If at all someone asks for an image to use for free, I will take the decision weighing in a lot of factors. Since it is my effort, I get to decide that.

But, when an agency decides to allow free usage of my work without my consent, it sure is wrong irrespective of the legal position.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Christos Georghiou on May 13, 2014, 03:14
I don't work at reduced rates but I do quite a lot of work for free for non profits, or donate licenses. That way I feel less like I am devaluing my work, more like I am making a charitable donation.

I never give away work for commercial use, it never pays off. A company that can secure your work for free on the promise of future work wont come back to you again, they will find the next sucker for the next project and so on.

It could be worse though, people could be taking work without even asking. Here are redacted versions of two emails, both received in April. Both only sent because the clients did an extraordinary amount of due diligence and were very honest, which makes me wonder how many times this happens without us finding out:

“[your illustration] would be great for my logo. So great, in fact, that a graphic designer I was working with had the nerve to take this image and lay my company name on top! I would NEVER take someone’s work like that and not pay them...”

“....my company [XXX] has hired [a design studio] to do a logo design for our company for $100 us dollars. We asked them for a design that we can trademark, reproduce and sell but one of the logos they sent us back that we want to finalize after some searching we found that you are the original artist of the image......”
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Petr Toman on May 13, 2014, 03:27
Well here is my story. I shot last year lot of sport events, for the first time with official accreditation etc. All the clubs and associations asked for free images with link to my site and my name. Even though I am in microstock few years, it was new field, and I decided to give a lot of them, to make promo. Besides that I upload them to news agency.

To sum it up at the end of the year, news agency delivered profit of $11... yes 11 :). And all the exposure I got was more demand for shooting sport events for free.

So this year, I provide only images to my friends team. And the rest must pay. They dont like it, but I dont care. It is lot of hard work. I put price on every image. If they want it, they can have it. I would rather have 1 paying customer, than 10 teams promoting my free work.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: PaulieWalnuts on May 13, 2014, 06:03
How did this attitude even come into existence??


It probably came about from a combination of photographers who have no business acumen and hobbiests.

Some hobbiests are thrilled just to have someone compliment their work which is totally understandable. So then some vulture asks to use it in a magazine for free. Sure, good bragging rights to friends and family. Then there are those photographers who value any kind of exposure. I can see certain types of exposure having a benefit but in my experience it's rare. There needs to be a measurable exchange of value.

Since I've updated my website to look more professional with my credentials I don't get free requests that often anymore. I recently had someone contact me from a wealthy California beach community wanting to use an image for free. I told him that as soon as airlines, gas companies, camera companies, car rental companies and all the rest stop charging for their products and services so will I.

I also have mostly stopped giving discounts especially on my print work. I had someone give me the "we'll give you lots of exposure by displaying your prints" deal and wanted a huge discount in return for this priceless magical exposure. I thought about it and told them no but thanks for your interest. They purchased anyway at full price. Unfortunately there are a lot of talented photographers out there who give stuff away because they don't recognize the value of their work or don't know how to negotiate or just say no.

A couple of my favorites

Harlan Ellison -- Pay the Writer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE#)

The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY#ws)




 
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: jefftakespics2 on May 13, 2014, 06:14
In my day job we are often asked by designers or PR agencies for free images for a good cause they are working on. We always ask if they are working for free as well. That always ends the conversation -- they are being paid. Donating your work and time is a noble thing to do, but it is just that -- a donation.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Petr Toman on May 13, 2014, 06:17
Thanks Paulie I love the videos :D
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Shelma1 on May 13, 2014, 06:25
Love the Harlan Ellison clip. It's true, you know...they pay everyone else without question. It's simply amazing to me that people expect art (in any form) for free.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: ShadySue on May 13, 2014, 06:56
Some hobbiests are thrilled just to have someone compliment their work which is totally understandable. So then some vulture asks to use it in a magazine for free. Sure, good bragging rights to friends and family. Then there are those photographers who value any kind of exposure. I can see certain types of exposure having a benefit but in my experience it's rare. There needs to be a measurable exchange of value.
Funnily enough, it can work sometimes, outwith the stock world.

For example, one of our top broadsheets has a Photo of the Day feature, for which the tog doesn't get paid. My Dad would dearly love me to have a photo there for his friends to 'notice' the credit. There were a lot of photos there from my area by one tog, which Dad had noticed often enough to ask if I knew him. I didn't, until he started coming to my Camera Club this session. Anyway, cutting to the chase, I happened to mention to another couple of members about him giving away his pics for free in the newspaper. Discovered that he is in a craft fair group locally, and the huge exposure his photos get in this quality paper,  read by many, probably most people who will go to these fairs, attracts people to his work - they assume as he is always getting his photos in that quality paper, he must be really good. They said local people talk about him in awe and reverence all the time (in fact, he's perfectly competent, but no better than the rest of us.) So although most photographers hereabouts find that photos don't sell at craft fairs, he does well, because he has a 'name'.

A friend, also not in stock, has done a lot of free gigs which have led him to get commissions private work and also other benefits, e.g. some of the models he has paid to build his portfolio (I suspect, but he hasn't actually admitted that he's hoping to start a studio when he quits his day job) have either started volunteering for the charity he works for, or their friends have. He even found an excellent employee who was a friend of a model and is a perfect fit, apparently. He's picked up weddings, parties, selling via Photobox (for a group he was providing 6x4 prints for free, but many of the members buy bigger photos for themselves).
I have to say, he's far more entrepreneurial than I am. I couldn't make that work, but he does.

I see no problems withpro bono if I want to do it. If it's a good cause I want to support, what difference does it make if I give them a donation, bake cakes, work in a charity shop, rattle cans, or take publicity photos?

If commercial entities ask for my photos free, no way: that's a different matter altogether.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: EmberMike on May 13, 2014, 07:58
Love the Harlan Ellison clip. It's true, you know...they pay everyone else without question. It's simply amazing to me that people expect art (in any form) for free.

It's because people see "art" and think "fun" or "hobby", something that someone should enjoy doing so much that they don't even care to be paid for it. The reality is that it's a job like any other. It's work, it's stressful, it comes with all of the problems of any other line of work. Even though I work for myself and from my home, I still have personal deadlines and production goals, things I need to do to keep earning. Plus all of the other tasks that someone else would do in an office job, bookkeeping, computer maintenance, buying supplies and equipment, fixing things, etc.

No work is free to produce, not even creative work. And yet someone will still ask for it for free.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Shelma1 on May 13, 2014, 08:20
Some hobbiests are thrilled just to have someone compliment their work which is totally understandable. So then some vulture asks to use it in a magazine for free. Sure, good bragging rights to friends and family. Then there are those photographers who value any kind of exposure. I can see certain types of exposure having a benefit but in my experience it's rare. There needs to be a measurable exchange of value.
Funnily enough, it can work sometimes, outwith the stock world.

For example, one of our top broadsheets has a Photo of the Day feature, for which the tog doesn't get paid. My Dad would dearly love me to have a photo there for his friends to 'notice' the credit. There were a lot of photos there from my area by one tog, which Dad had noticed often enough to ask if I knew him. I didn't, until he started coming to my Camera Club this session. Anyway, cutting to the chase, I happened to mention to another couple of members about him giving away his pics for free in the newspaper. Discovered that he is in a craft fair group locally, and the huge exposure his photos get in this quality paper,  read by many, probably most people who will go to these fairs, attracts people to his work - they assume as he is always getting his photos in that quality paper, he must be really good. They said local people talk about him in awe and reverence all the time (in fact, he's perfectly competent, but no better than the rest of us.) So although most photographers hereabouts find that photos don't sell at craft fairs, he does well, because he has a 'name'.

A friend, also not in stock, has done a lot of free gigs which have led him to get commissions private work and also other benefits, e.g. some of the models he has paid to build his portfolio (I suspect, but he hasn't actually admitted that he's hoping to start a studio when he quits his day job) have either started volunteering for the charity he works for, or their friends have. He even found an excellent employee who was a friend of a model and is a perfect fit, apparently. He's picked up weddings, parties, selling via Photobox (for a group he was providing 6x4 prints for free, but many of the members buy bigger photos for themselves).
I have to say, he's far more entrepreneurial than I am. I couldn't make that work, but he does.

I see no problems withpro bono if I want to do it. If it's a good cause I want to support, what difference does it make if I give them a donation, bake cakes, work in a charity shop, rattle cans, or take publicity photos?

If commercial entities ask for my photos free, no way: that's a different matter altogether.

It's great that the exposure brings him sales. But why doesn't the newspaper pay him? Serious question. They pay the reporters, the editors, the delivery people, the printer, the paper manufacturer, the owners of the building they're in, they pay for ink, for web hosting, web design, marketing, etc. etc. etc. But the photographer works for "exposure." Why is he the exception? Surely the newspaper can afford to pay something once a week.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: ShadySue on May 13, 2014, 08:35
It's great that the exposure brings him sales. But why doesn't the newspaper pay him? Serious question. They pay the reporters, the editors, the delivery people, the printer, the paper manufacturer, the owners of the building they're in, they pay for ink, for web hosting, web design, marketing, etc. etc. etc. But the photographer works for "exposure." Why is he the exception? Surely the newspaper can afford to pay something once a week.
Actually, they're near the wall and have had to lay off most of their staff togs and several of their reporters. However, you're right, everyone left is paid.
I wasn't condoning it, just saying it works for him.
If they paid him, they wouldn't necessarily credit him.  (I've noticed most of my editorial found in-uses aren't credited although iS's TOS requires it for files used editorially.)
If he had to pay for advertising, it wouldn't benefit him - no-one is few people are  impressed by advertising.
But also, 'he that pays the piper calls the tune'. ATM, he can shoot whatever he likes, whenever he likes.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: bunhill on May 13, 2014, 08:37
They pay the reporters, the editors, the delivery people, the printer, the paper manufacturer, the owners of the building they're in, they pay for ink, for web hosting, web design, marketing, etc. etc. etc. But the photographer works for "exposure." Why is he the exception? Surely the newspaper can afford to pay something once a week.

So shouldn't stock models always get paid too then ?
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Shelma1 on May 13, 2014, 08:44
They pay the reporters, the editors, the delivery people, the printer, the paper manufacturer, the owners of the building they're in, they pay for ink, for web hosting, web design, marketing, etc. etc. etc. But the photographer works for "exposure." Why is he the exception? Surely the newspaper can afford to pay something once a week.

So shouldn't stock models always get paid too then ?

Yes.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: ShadySue on May 13, 2014, 09:02
BTW, it's not only creatives who give services free or at low cost.
For example, many small local groups and charities use accountants doing 'mates' rates' or 'favours' for necessary auditing of annual accounts.
Whenever a local group/organisation has a fundraiser, they're round all the local businesses to ask for donations in goods or kind.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Ron on May 13, 2014, 09:04
They pay the reporters, the editors, the delivery people, the printer, the paper manufacturer, the owners of the building they're in, they pay for ink, for web hosting, web design, marketing, etc. etc. etc. But the photographer works for "exposure." Why is he the exception? Surely the newspaper can afford to pay something once a week.

So shouldn't stock models always get paid too then ?

Yes.
I am not paying my dad when I photograph him around the house. :)
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Shelma1 on May 13, 2014, 09:17
They pay the reporters, the editors, the delivery people, the printer, the paper manufacturer, the owners of the building they're in, they pay for ink, for web hosting, web design, marketing, etc. etc. etc. But the photographer works for "exposure." Why is he the exception? Surely the newspaper can afford to pay something once a week.

So shouldn't stock models always get paid too then ?

Yes.
I am not paying my dad when I photograph him around the house. :)

Really? I would offer to pay him a portion of my sales of his image. Of course, if he's like my dad, he would vehemently refuse to accept payment. ;)

Here's an example. My niece is absolutely beautiful (she's seven years old). Instead of asking if I could shoot her, I suggested my sister get headshots and I could introduce her to casting agents to get some work in print ads or commercials if she thought it would be fun. That way she could put the money aside for college. My nephew modeled for awhile because he thought it was fun. Once it was not fun, that stopped. But he was paid. (He modeled for Fisher-price toys.)
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Red Dove on May 13, 2014, 09:18
Conversation with a lawyer:

Me: I was wondering if you wouldn't mind working for free?
Lawyer: You already owe me ten dollars.
Me: What for?
Lawyer: Make that twenty.
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: bunhill on May 13, 2014, 09:20
Conversation with a lawyer:

Me: I was wondering if you wouldn't mind working for free?
Lawyer: You already owe me ten dollars.
Me: What for?
Lawyer: Make that twenty.

Have you thought of offering a CD with some photos of him instead of money ?
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: ravens on May 13, 2014, 09:29
How did this attitude even come into existence??

People love free stuff. If you are an attorney, they ask for free legal advice.
If you are a GP and go to a party, someone certainly asks about their headaches or tummy pains.
If you are a hairdresser you will get asked about hair products.
Work for a health store, health products.
Then there is this share craziness in social media, people share photos, video, media etc.
Lines get blurred as to what is appropriate and what is not.

Of course people asking for free photos is annoying, we work hard for creating them and we invest in our gear (it is not like we point and shoot with a cheap compact and voila! are ready). A lot of people don't seem to realize the time and effort we put into this. They don't understand what "stock" is, they don't realize we do the post production, write keywords, captions, think categories, and before this think what sells, what to shoot, which images to choose, meanwhile educating ourselves. They believe these things just "happen".
However, I can't really blame them, because I can't steer a ferry or change a computer hard drive, as these things all require different skills.

I guess my point is: try think of this philosophically. People have a weakness for free things  :)
Our work is valuable and we should always get something in return.




Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: ravens on May 13, 2014, 09:41
Conversation with a lawyer:

Me: I was wondering if you wouldn't mind working for free?
Lawyer: You already owe me ten dollars.
Me: What for?
Lawyer: Make that twenty.

 :D :D
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Shelma1 on May 13, 2014, 11:54
Timely posttoday  on the Freelancer's Union blog:

https://medium.com/i-love-charts/9f47fdd7152a
Title: Re: Requests to use images for free
Post by: Elenathewise on May 13, 2014, 12:25
Timely posttoday  on the Freelancer's Union blog:

https://medium.com/i-love-charts/9f47fdd7152a

Love this  :) :) :)