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Author Topic: Similar images  (Read 12057 times)

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CofkoCof

« on: December 17, 2008, 06:32 »
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I made an image that started selling pretty well across all the sites. Looks like others found it's a nice concept and made their own versions of the image or they all came up with the same idea as me (I'm pretty sure mine was the first one, at least if I compare the image numbers). Some of those sell even better than mine (one at istock since the author is exclusive and thus the image is better placed, one is even at fotolias best selling with almost 300 downloads already!!!). Just a few of similar images, mine is the first one:

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup.php?id=7059912
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup.php?id=7872042
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup.php?id=7595625
http://www.fotolia.com/id/9839447

Many similar still out there, also on some other images. I'm just a small fish and see this happening, must be a PITA for you big guys.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 06:49 by CofkoCof »


Microbius

« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2008, 08:27 »
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the fotolia one is just taking the p*ss, it's almost identical.
Not a lot you can do about it but it does suck.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 08:34 by Microbius »

CofkoCof

« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2008, 09:01 »
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the fotolia one is just taking the p*ss, it's almost identical.
Not a lot you can do about it but it does suck.

Yeah there's nothing you can do. It doesn't feel right though, especially since in this case hes probably made 10 times as much as I did (mine sold 27 times, his almost 300 times). There's a thin line between copying an image and getting inspired by it. Also with the large ammount of contributors it is very likely that different people come up with (basicly) the same idea.

Found a few similar topics on MSG if anyone is interested in this topic:
http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=4350.0
http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=362.0
http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=3202.0
http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=4129.0

PS: I decided I will completly stop looking at other peoples portfolios. There are two reasons for this:
- I won't feel bad when someone made an almost identical image than I did which sells much better than mine (since I won't know "similar images" exist)
- I will be sure that all the images I make are a product of my creativity and not a flashback of an image I saw a while ago

« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2008, 09:09 »
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Why don't you raise the problem with him and Fotolia? There's nothing you can do, but you can at least scare him off a bit.

« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2008, 10:45 »
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PS: I decided I will completly stop looking at other peoples portfolios. There are two reasons for this:
- I won't feel bad when someone made an almost identical image than I did which sells much better than mine (since I won't know "similar images" exist)
- I will be sure that all the images I make are a product of my creativity and not a flashback of an image I saw a while ago


Bingo. For the reasons you state, I don't look at anyone else's portfolio. I buy images on a regular basis though, so sometimes I do get to see what others are doing.

I find that I stress too much when looking at other people's work, because I always see really great stuff (which makes me think I should be working harder).  ;D

« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 12:07 »
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The concept is original enough to discard the possibiliy of a coincidence.  There's nothing you can do? You can't say that until you have filed a complain witht the sites where that has happened. I would do it without hesitating a second: make a polite complain telling what has happened. For what I know, in the past, at certain sites these kind of complains, when subtantiated, have given results.

Microbius

« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2008, 12:15 »
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I don't think that the complaint would (should?) result in the images being removed. You can't copyright an idea. These might be copies of the idea but they aren't reselling the authors copyrighted work or anything.

« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2008, 12:58 »
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...
PS: I decided I will completly stop looking at other peoples portfolios. ...

I decided to do this shortly after I started shooting stock. Although life would be easier and my income would probably increase if I looked around more, I find it much more validating/rewarding to make a living through my own ability and creativity.

On a related note, I did an experiment about a year or so ago where I included a few 'stupid' keywords to see who was copying my stuff. I was a little surprised by the results.

« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2008, 15:40 »
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I don't think that the complaint would (should?) result in the images being removed. You can't copyright an idea. These might be copies of the idea but they aren't reselling the authors copyrighted work or anything.

It's only in the agency's interest to stop this.  Copiers copy and copy, and eventually, the creative ones disappear out of frustration and lower profits, the copiers are left with nothing to copy and they leave, and the agency loses out.

lisafx

« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2008, 16:08 »
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It definitely IS frustrating. 

I have been on both sides of the issue - I've been copied (actually even had a couple of folks write to let me know a picture or series "inspired" their similar ones!).   

I also avoid looking at other people's portfolios and even doing sample searches for exactly the reasons CofkoCof stated...

Your concept is unique enough for you to be fairly certain the others were inspired.  I think most of the linked ones are different enough to get away with it, but the Fotolia one is a dead rip-off.  I would contact their support. 

« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2008, 16:49 »
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I don't want to be the spoiler to this party, but we are all influenced in a certain way by someone.

You may think this concept is your idea ... I think it's around for a very long time

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-610544.html
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-7448182.html

If we need to reject all images which look like an other ... we can delete all our portfolios because none of us has an unique one.

All this shows that micro images are short lived.  And if you want to enjoy them for a little longer then normal, make images that can hardly be reproduced. 

And at last, to be honest, I like the fotolia image the most.  Why should FT reject an images which is better then one which is already online ?


« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2008, 17:07 »
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All this shows that micro images are short lived.  And if you want to enjoy them for a little longer then normal, make images that can hardly be reproduced.

All it shows is that images with a yearly date are short lived :)

« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2008, 17:09 »
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I wonder why so many people, whent this kinds of discussions happens, tend to be lenient on plagiarists, "it can't be avoided", "there's nothing really new"... well iI prefer not try to answer this question.

But one thing is getting some inspiration, i.e., you see that pictures of doctors at work do sell, and you do your own view of the theme. Another completely different thing is plagiarism of non-generic concepts, framing, ligthning etc. That's plagiarism, and all microstock sites that I know of, warn about it. So, contact support; it even may happen that others had contacted them complaining about the same "artist".  

« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2008, 23:29 »
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I wonder why so many people, whent this kinds of discussions happens, tend to be lenient on plagiarists, "it can't be avoided", "there's nothing really new"... well iI prefer not try to answer this question.

I know.  It always surprises me too.

CofkoCof

« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2008, 02:16 »
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After reading your responses I've contacted support at fotolia and got the following answer:
Quote
It is a common idea. It is hard for us to say this is a copyright violation.

Just what I thought in the first place, that's why I didn't report it sooner.

You may think this concept is your idea ... I think it's around for a very long time

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-610544.html
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-7448182.html

And at last, to be honest, I like the fotolia image the most.  Why should FT reject an images which is better then one which is already online ?

Yeah, looks like the idea has been around for some time, didn't see those images before. Still you must admit that the difference between my image and the ones you posted is quite big in contrast to the "similar one" from fotolia.

I don't think they have the capabilites to compare new images with all the images already in the database. One of the links that I posted is debating whose resposibility is it to police the stock images.

Microbius

« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2008, 03:58 »
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I wonder why so many people, whent this kinds of discussions happens, tend to be lenient on plagiarists, "it can't be avoided", "there's nothing really new"... well iI prefer not try to answer this question.

I know.  It always surprises me too.
I think it's because no one wants reviewers to have the final call on whether something is similar enough to be a copy. There's enough personal opinion in the reviewing process as it is.
For example, is the OP's whole figure series a rip off of Scott Maxwell's style?
If the agencies were really bothered by this there's an easy way to stop it, stop giving newer images higher placing then older ones.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 04:04 by Microbius »

CofkoCof

« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2008, 05:19 »
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For example, is the OP's whole figure series a rip off of Scott Maxwell's style?
He was not the first one to do these kind of figures. I know of at least one artist that did it before him. But it's still a valid question.


« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2008, 09:51 »
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For example, is the OP's whole figure series a rip off of Scott Maxwell's style?
He was not the first one to do these kind of figures. I know of at least one artist that did it before him. But it's still a valid question.

Agree.

I would say that there are several contributors using a 3D character throughout their portfolio and also several using this kind of "new years" concept: none of them are thus very original and mixing them both cannot be that original either.

If you enter into plagiarism discussion for such pictures, I'm afraid everybody would suffer as you will ALWAYS find previous similar pictures of such simple concepts.

Take the whole portfolio of Yuri and I'm quite sure you will find a very similar photo for each and every one of them which has been uploaded before Yuri's one... and I'm sure Yuri do not need inspiration from other contributors.

Moreover, as far as I know, you can always argue about the ethical aspect of copying other contributor's concepts, but from a legal point of view, ideas and concepts are not copyrighted and I don't think any portfolio would be closed for that only reason.

« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2008, 09:58 »
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There is a difference between using a 3d character in a scene, and duplicating the pose, position and camera angle, which is what this seems to be.

I had someone almost exactly duplicate one of my 3d images on iStock, and I was able to have it removed.  This is one reason I don't do a lot of 3d anymore.

« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2008, 10:56 »
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There is a difference between using a 3d character in a scene, and duplicating the pose, position and camera angle, which is what this seems to be.

I had someone almost exactly duplicate one of my 3d images on iStock, and I was able to have it removed.  This is one reason I don't do a lot of 3d anymore.

I agree, this is probably plagiarism in this case. But removing a portfolio should not depend on how many degrees you have between the subject and the camera or the color of the character.

Microstock sites do encourage plagiarism somehow by telling contributors to have a look at the "most downloaded" list to know what sell and I would say this is part of the business.

This is a "gray zone" and it is quite difficult to define a limit between what is acceptable and what is not.


shank_ali

« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2008, 14:46 »
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The basic fact to consider here is not all artists have inspiration or fresh ideas  so need to look at others work and copy.
You know the sort of people they are..they would fall into a barrel of tits and come up * their thumb!

bittersweet

« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2008, 14:50 »
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Always the charmer...  ::)

« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2008, 17:43 »
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Yours is the best image . . . if that is any consolation  :-*

CofkoCof

« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2008, 20:09 »
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Yours is the best image . . . if that is any consolation  :-*
Tnx a lot!

AVAVA

« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2008, 22:54 »
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Sorry Cofkocof, ( man I always spell your name wrong )  :D

 Some of the biggest Micro makers in the business don't have one clever idea in their heads. That is part of the reason they surf these sites to see what they can steal. I am already seeing people from this site start to try to incorporate my look into their newest uploads.  Then they have the audasity to take jabs at me every time I post. Don't worry the world is full of takers it doesn't mean they possess your skills.
 I had one guy here say to me " Why don't you post all the shot lists you have to the group " after my posting that " I have many shot Lists to share just PM me and I'll send you one " after that he sent me a PM saying I was making a big mistake posting my shot lists and I was making it harder on him and the others sharing such info and he didn't like it.
 What is it, post them all or bitch at me for helping. There are some twisted souls out there dude. Keep smiling if you are one with the skill the others will wither. I love your bots and with my limited skills in PS or 3-D you won't find me stealing from you only enjoying your creativity. Keep it up.

 On a positive note I would say 95% of the folks here are good people. At least the ones that post, who knows about the lurkers.

Best,
AVAVA

« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 00:53 by AVAVA »

« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2008, 06:50 »
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Some of the biggest Micro makers in the business don't have one clever idea in their heads. That is part of the reason they surf these sites to see what they can steal. I am already seeing people from this site start to try to incorporate my look into their newest uploads.  Then they have the audasity to take jabs at me every time I post. Don't worry the world is full of takers it doesn't mean they possess your skills.

Well, I don't know if you can really own a "look", but I think you've just proven my point about putting too much trade information out there.

hali

« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2008, 11:18 »
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i believe that copycats are only just that. they may succeed stealing your ideas, but eventually they will lose when the buyer finds the original creator.
it's like music or painting. the lousy copycat make the most money, at first.
but eventually, the original artist gets the credit. hopefully.

but like you said, stop looking at other port, and just concentrating on making more images.   you cannot stop them copying, it's obvious because i see the same to my port. new images get so many visitors, but no sales.  all there to see what ideas to copy.  lucky for me, i am not a big seller , as i am new, and only have 100 images at the most.  but since i don't look at other ports, i don't get pissed off. i don't have the time to go looking . maybe that is a good thing.



« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2008, 11:20 »
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Right hali..

« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2008, 11:41 »
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CofkoCof, boli te kurac. With your mind, imagination and experience I'm sure one picture will change nothing. Continue producing such gems, your rank will raise and so will the sales (with original concepts or not).

« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2008, 11:57 »
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What do they say? "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."
I wouldn't let the copiers interfere with your creativity and good work. :)

AVAVA

« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2008, 12:57 »
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Didn't prove anything SJ,

 Just that there are hacks making money at Micro by stealing ideas. These ideas any half whit should be able to come up with. The work I have seen copied is of no threat just like the people who copy Yuri. They think it is just the concept that sells but it is the interaction between photographer and model that make the big money. No one can steal your style only copy it. Besides imitation is the greatest form of flattery. I would not worry to much about anyone stealing any of your work my friend, I think you are safe. My work and yours can be copied just by surfing the agencies no talented person is free of this following even if they offer their shot lists up. You don't seem to understand it isn't the help and the shot list it is the eye of the photographer. This industry has been plagued with no talent thieves from the dawn of time. May I offer again, I have shared all my secrets for 20 years and I am in the top 50 money makers in the Stock industry. How do you explain that.

AVAVA

« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 15:17 by AVAVA »

« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2008, 13:08 »
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The bulk of the design industry is based on re-presentations of existing cliches and memes, give a client something original and most likely they'll baulk on it. I've not seen anything on micro that I have not seen the progenitors of in old printed brochures from image bank, photodisc, bananastock etc etc of ten years ago. Get over it already.

AVAVA

« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2008, 13:27 »
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Thanks for the feedback Sentinel.

Best,
AVAVA

« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2008, 13:31 »
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I understand that some may resent it, but there are original ideas as well. Work and talent produce them. And in my country, plagiarism is a crime, not flattery.

AVAVA

« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2008, 13:45 »
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 Hi Loop,

 I agree Plagiarism is very different than copying an idea and making it yours. Look at all the fishes jumping out of bowls. One of my friends in Macro stock created that idea years ago. How many Micro people have Plagiarized that shot. Not made it there own but straight out stole it. That would not be allowed in Macro only in the Micro model. But what are you going to do about it. Go after some poor soul worth $50,000 The cost in money and personal energy does not make it very worth while to try and track these people down. My work is not being plagiarized my style is just starting to be incorporated into others work. I not worried they don't have my eye and they can't get their models to react like I can. The only way for them to get close would be maybe a workshop but they will not gain those skills reading shot lists on this site.

Thanks for the feedback,
AVAVA

CofkoCof

« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2008, 17:23 »
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CofkoCof, boli te kurac. With your mind, imagination and experience I'm sure one picture will change nothing. Continue producing such gems, your rank will raise and so will the sales (with original concepts or not).
Ima prav, najbolje da me boli k..... in naprej furam svoje fotke. Thanks for your compliments.


 

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