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Author Topic: The Blame Game  (Read 24696 times)

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lisafx

« on: March 03, 2010, 17:18 »
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Is it just me, or has there been an awful lot of blame and accusation going around this forum recently? 

I find this forum very useful in that we can compare all compare notes about what is happening with our portfolios and with the various sites.  It is only natural that different people have different experiences and perspective.  Sometimes disagreements can get heated. 

Recently though,  there seem to be an increasing number of posters who want to accuse people of "blaming" "hating" and "whining".  These sorts of accusations are not productive to the conversation and should be kept out of it.

Contrary to the tone of some recent threads, newbies and long time members of the industry should not be on opposite sides of the fence.  We all benefit from keeping the industry healthy and the sites accountable. 

When it gets to the point you can't even share your experiences without being attacked then this forum ceases to be useful and a valuable service is lost.


Dook

« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 17:20 »
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I just replied to you on the other post, but never mind.

lisafx

« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 17:23 »
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I just replied to you on the other post, but never mind.

Actually, this thread wasn't directed at you Dook.  You are a great guy and I am sorry I misunderstood your post.  :)  I read your reply and posted back to you.

I will probably leave this thread, though, because there does seem to be a heightened level of hostility around here lately, so it is worth discussing.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 17:25 by lisafx »

Dook

« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 17:25 »
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I think we better open new thread - Lisa and Dook matter.

donding

  • Think before you speak
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 17:30 »
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Thank you Lisa...that was what I was talking about

« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 17:37 »
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I can't decide if people are just on edge because of all the changes to microstock or if there is just an inordinate number of new people signing up to push their referral links, blogs and keywording services. I know both of those things are making me cranky.  :)

ETA: Is it just me  No not just you

lisafx

« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 17:42 »
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At least I am not imagining it...   :-\

« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2010, 17:52 »
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Lisa, I think your post pretty much repeats what was discussed recently (http://www.microstockgroup.com/general-stock-discussion/what-has-happened-to-this-forum!!!/), even though phrased differently.

I think forum got some mass of new members, and there is occasionally some turbulence. I hope it will not develop into anything seriously unpleasant.

lisafx

« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2010, 17:57 »
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Lisa, I think your post pretty much repeats what was discussed recently (http://www.microstockgroup.com/general-stock-discussion/what-has-happened-to-this-forum!!!/), even though phrased differently.


Maybe Donna was just quicker at picking up on the vibe.  I hadn't noticed it when she started her thread.  It just became obvious to me in the "What are your earnings" and "DT Keyflagging" threads. 

« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2010, 18:37 »
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It will calm down and then it will heat up again. It seems to come and go in cycles. What is it they say at IS?

Heart Heart Unicorn Rainbow? ;)

macrosaur

    This user is banned.
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2010, 18:37 »
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Actually, this thread wasn't directed at you Dook. 

then maybe me ?   :D

but let's look at it from another perspective : there's a whole "newbie" section in this forum, so they have plenty of space
already.

i don't blame newbies actually, i blame agencies for ripping them off with the illusion of getting rich quick.
it should be written on the stone that joining an agency (RM of RF) without at least 1000 photos will
lead you nowhere.

instead here there's plenty of newbies talking about selling their 50 holiday snaps.

who's gaining from newbies ? no one, and first of all not the professional photographers.

canon and nikon are already doing their best to sell the myth that all you need to take
goos shots is their latest cameras, why we should encourage new amateurs to join
the market when the marker itself is goign down the drain even for the top sellers ?

there's a place for newbies, and it's called Flickr .. and photo.net, and many other
less known sites.

sorry for being harsh but it just makes no business sense to teach newbies our trade.

RT


« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2010, 18:44 »
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Is it just me, or has there been an awful lot of blame and accusation going around this forum recently? 

Yes and it's all your fault  :P

« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2010, 19:22 »
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Doesn't seem that long ago that I was a newbie uploading a few of my holiday snaps.  Most newbies wont make much doing this but some will do very well and it would get dull if we only had a bunch of old pros here.  I still don't see any decline in the microstock industry, I have been uploading less each year but making more money.  There is a big portfolio syndrome but that doesn't surprise me.  It is going to get harder to maintain increasing profits as a portfolio gets bigger, that makes sense to me.  When you start, it might be possible to increase your portfolio by 20% each month but after a few years, it might be hard  to increase it by 1%.  It is also difficult to keep coming up with original ideas and not repeat yourself.  Perhaps some people are working on subjects that have been saturated and they could make more by trying other subjects?

« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2010, 19:37 »
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there seem to be an increasing number of posters who want to accuse people of "blaming" "hating" and "whining". 

Yes, people seem to be accusing others of things that aren't there.

« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2010, 19:46 »
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I agree with you Lisa. Few days ago I lost my temper in one thread... It doesn't happen often, but it happens. I think this is happening because of bad things in microstock industry. We are getting paid less and less, because of subscriptions, more tax for non-Americans, decreasing credit value, and bad economy situation we experience everywhere.. All this makes an atmosphere of too many fish in the tank, and some fish tend to eat smaller ones to get more space for them selves. :)
I really hope this will end someday. If you watch American news you will hear it's betting better, but if you watch any international news you will hear that America has deficit in tens of trillions of dollars, and no one really believes the crisis will end so soon....unfortunately...

« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2010, 20:24 »
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Is it just me, or has there been an awful lot of blame and accusation going around this forum recently? 

I don't think it's just you. I think it's a mixture of several things though.

One is tougher times - people are struggling to keep their income growing. Standards at the micros have risen, management at a number of agencies have taken hard nosed approaches to dealing with contributors, the economy's been rocky.

Another is that we're no longer all newbies together - at one point everyone was a newbie at the micros. Now we have more constituencies in the group - the more established micro contributors, newbies to micros, old line trad agency contributors who've decided to contribute to micros and the influx of people wondering what all this is about who are looking at business prospects (blogs, referrals, services, advertising, etc.) rather than becoming a contributor.

There are a few people who have more posts here than images in their portfolios and for the most part I think the best way to deal with incivility from this group is just ignore them. If people don't have any stake in the game, why feed the trolls by arguing with them?

Anonymity is another problem, and by and large FT is to blame for that. Their vindictive behavior has led a number of people - entirely rationally - to remain anonymous to avoid having their accounts closed. Other than this unfortunate need for anonymity, I'd otherwise have suggested ignoring all anonymous posters without portfolio links. How can you have any sort of intelligent exchange when you have no idea who you're talking to?

Size is the other thing - micros have been successful and the group has become quite a bit larger. It's harder to know everyone when the group is large.

For the most part, most people most of the time have been civil and constructive. That's what has made this group a very useful resource.  It isn't that tough to disagree without getting into a personal slugfest with those who hold other points of view. I expect that things will simmer down again, and if they don't, perhaps some discussions with Leaf about having some sort of time out from posting for those who can't stay civil?

RacePhoto

« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2010, 20:43 »
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Is it just me, or has there been an awful lot of blame and accusation going around this forum recently? 

Yes and it's all your fault  :P

That was my first thought too, but I thought if I said so, someone would take me seriously. ;)

Since I have banned myself from writing on Topics for sites that I don't contribute to anymore, it has limited me somewhat. I thought that would brighten up the place, but apparently it hasn't?


« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2010, 21:18 »
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Is it just me, or has there been an awful lot of blame and accusation going around this forum recently? 

Yes and it's all your fault  :P

Priceless!  :D

WarrenPrice

« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2010, 21:39 »
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Newbie  ... Is that a derogatory name?   ??? :P

« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2010, 21:57 »
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Newbie  ... Is that a derogatory name?   ??? :P


I don't think newbie is derogatory, but 'newb' (or more correctly 'noob') certainly is - a noob is someone who's been at it long enough to know how to avoid the mistakes a newbie would make, but somehow just can't make that leap. In the context of microstock, I'd say you're a noob if you've been at an agency for, say, one year and are still earning an entry-level commission.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 22:04 by sharply_done »

« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2010, 22:09 »
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Newbie  ... Is that a derogatory name?   ??? :P
It certainly wasn't intended to be. I didn't  think it had any "baggage" unless it is thought to be  unfair to point out that some are just beginning. Have you got some other term you prefer for referring to those just starting with a very small portfolio and very little time in as a contributor?

« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2010, 23:02 »
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Newbie  ... Is that a derogatory name?   ??? :P
I personally like FNG.

« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2010, 23:55 »
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there's a place for newbies, and it's called Flickr .. and photo.net, and many other
less known sites.   ...it just makes no business sense to teach newbies our trade.

This trade doesn't belong to anyone.  I believe everyone should be free to try their skills at a trade, and if they're good, they should be allowed to prosper.   You can't build a wall around your little industry and kick down people as they try to enter.  That's protectionist (bad) and elitist (not much better).

Everyone, ask yourself: when you started in your livelihood, whatever it is, did the veterans in your industry kick you down and say you shouldn't be allowed to prove yourself and grow your skills?  Sure, you had competitors who felt threatened by your arrival, but was there a concerted effort by your peers to keep you out?  That's what it feels like here.

I'm a sensible person.  I'm not going to help anyone submit images in my style and in the niches I've found are successful for me.  But I am going to share some common sense insights that I've figured out along the way, offer encouragement, and speak out in defense of a newbie's freedom to put his or her skills to the test.  And if that scares the veterans out there, you better step up your game.  God didn't grant you the position you hold today.  You worked hard to get where you are, but you can't deny others the right to do the same.

« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2010, 00:18 »
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Thank you for starting this topic, I for one am thankful for this forum even though I am new - Its a fun read, very informative!


I also have a perhaps-related quesion:
it seems that people are differentiating "less-pro" (to avoid derogatories) people versus pros by the size of the portfolio.
Shouldn't we be measuring the user's level by something like RPI (or your favourite similar stat)...?

It feels a little silly to call someone with 10,000 images and 1,000 dloads/year more pro than a person with 100 images and 100 dloads/year... or am I wrong (honest question)?
Yes, they're putting more work into it, but ...

adijr

p.s. About me --- yes, I am new, and will likely remain "new" by some definitions - I've been uploading to IS for 5 months, and by that I mean I am uploading about a pic a month since my first batch of 10.
I like to try very new things (new to me... I'm sure others have done it). Its fun, and I apologize if anyone feels like this robs the industry in some way, but I don't think it does if my few images
are good quality.

p.p.s. thanks for the ignore feature, leaf!

« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2010, 00:21 »
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Let me add to that question a little - If I'm learning alot and in a year or a few I become a pretty/very good photographer (or developer, I like some CGI stuff), and on top of that I know what sells; yet I upload very little (due to interests, other commitments, etc) - I'm still not a "pro"?

boy, this is hard terminology...


 

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