Author Topic: Unions kill another Company (Read 12558 times)

michaeldb · « **Reply #25 on:** November 17, 2012, 19:08 »

Quote from: sgoodwin4813 on November 16, 2012, 21:12

They could limp along when times were good, but the prolonged recession is weeding out those companies where the top managers are not deserving their high salaries. inevitable, the only question was when. They also had taken on way too much debt...

Why wasn't Hostess given a bail out, like the big banks which were mismanaged? They weren't 'weeded out'. Why wasn't Hostess taken away from the owners/investors, given a few billion dollars, and then handed over to the unions as a reward for their political support, the way Chrysler was?

I guess if you mismanage a Twinkie company you get weeded out, but if you have the right gov connections no amount of greed or mismanagement is enough to keep you from being handed billions of money taken from taxpayers.

cathyslife · « **Reply #26 on:** November 18, 2012, 08:52 »

I think that in their day, unions did a great service for the workers of America, when workers were being forced to work in sweat shops and for peanuts. Times have changed, and the unions should have too. But just like the greedy corporations, the unions have become greedy too. And I agree that everyone deserves a fair wage, but I know several people working for GM (you know, the company that got the government bailout) and they make wages WAY above what a person in an average manufacturing job makes. And get incredible benefits on top of that. And when parts aren't available and the line is shut down, workers STILL get paid that high wage to stand around and do nothing.

I think this company is going bye-bye because of a LOT of peoples greed, starting at the very top, all the way down to the last full-time person who got hired. And that might have been a while ago, because these big union companies have also followed in the footsteps of other non-union companies in that they hire people part-time so that they don't have to pay all the other benefits. The union and management just keeps that money.

As was mentioned before, the unions are still operating on the principles put in place many years ago. Those situations aren't usually true anymore. Nobody wants to give up some of the gravy train and do their part to keep their job and that's when everybody loses.

And there's always this: if you think you are being taken advantage of by an employer and conditions suck and you don't like what's going on...do something different. Even in these difficult times, there's usually something else that can be done. Will it be easy? Nope.

jbarber873 · « **Reply #27 on:** November 18, 2012, 11:33 »

This is a company that makes sugar filled crap that less and less people see worth buying. When I was growing up, there were always commercials on for wonder bread and how it built strong bodies 8 ways and other completely false claims that they no longer can get away with. This is a company that is greatly out of step with consumers' greater knowledge of nutrition, not to mention dental care.
The time for this company to pivot to a healthier mix of products is long past, and that's the fault of management, not the workers. The company has been run for many years as a wasting asset, and this is just the end game.
The products made by this company have almost universally become jokes, good only for ironic references in movies. Greed didn't kill this company, demographics killed it.

tab62 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 18, 2012, 20:19 »

Now, I wonder if the iStock Senior partners eat Twinkies thus explaining the fall of iStock

Milinz · « **Reply #29 on:** February 02, 2013, 03:48 »

Quote from: cclapper on November 18, 2012, 08:52

I think that in their day, unions did a great service for the workers of America, when workers were being forced to work in sweat shops and for peanuts. Times have changed, and the unions should have too. But just like the greedy corporations, the unions have become greedy too. And I agree that everyone deserves a fair wage, but I know several people working for GM (you know, the company that got the government bailout) and they make wages WAY above what a person in an average manufacturing job makes. And get incredible benefits on top of that. And when parts aren't available and the line is shut down, workers STILL get paid that high wage to stand around and do nothing.

I think this company is going bye-bye because of a LOT of peoples greed, starting at the very top, all the way down to the last full-time person who got hired. And that might have been a while ago, because these big union companies have also followed in the footsteps of other non-union companies in that they hire people part-time so that they don't have to pay all the other benefits. The union and management just keeps that money.

As was mentioned before, the unions are still operating on the principles put in place many years ago. Those situations aren't usually true anymore. Nobody wants to give up some of the gravy train and do their part to keep their job and that's when everybody loses.

And there's always this: if you think you are being taken advantage of by an employer and conditions suck and you don't like what's going on...do something different. Even in these difficult times, there's usually something else that can be done. Will it be easy? Nope.

I think that unions did a great service for the workers of America. Now times have changed.

"NEW YORK (AP) -- NBA players put union chief Billy Hunter on an indefinite leave Friday, two weeks after a report they commissioned questioned Hunter's leadership and criticized him for bad decisions and questionable business practices.

The union is forming an interim executive committee and an advisory committee, the group's president, Derek Fisher, said in a statement released Friday. An outside attorney is also being hired as players begin moving forward, likely without the man who has guided them since 1996.

Hunter's attorney responded that the actions weren't allowable under NBPA rules, setting up the possibility of a Hunter fight to keep to his job.

Fisher pushed for the outside review of Hunter and the union. That examination by a New York law firm found no illegal use of funds but cited Hunter for a number of poor choices and recommended players discuss whether he should remain in charge during their All-Star weekend meetings."

Unions, business, lawyers, attorney, greed. We are still the workers.

EmberMike · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2013, 10:01 »

Quote

...Hunter's attorney responded that the actions weren't allowable under NBPA rules, setting up the possibility of a Hunter fight to keep to his job.

Fisher pushed for the outside review of Hunter and the union. That examination by a New York law firm found no illegal use of funds but cited Hunter for a number of poor choices and recommended players discuss whether he should remain in charge during their All-Star weekend meetings.

And herein lies the major problem with unions. It can be determined that you are poor at your job and yet there are these "rules" in place that allow you to keep your job. And I say this as the husband of a union teacher. It's a broken system, where pretty much the only way you can get the dead weight out of a job position is if they do something illegal.

I know another union teacher who needed his union recently and they were useless. He was wrongly accused of bullying a student (he caught the kid smoking in school and the kid wanted to retaliate so he told the principal that this teacher bullied him), and when he was brought before the board of education and accused, his union wouldn't help him. He had to defend himself. The board sided with the student and this teacher now has to go to sensitivity training sessions. He was able to defend himself against a proposed pay cut. No thanks to the union.

So from where I'm standing, it looks like unions are good for defending the bad workers and useless when the good ones need help, all the while they keep taking big sums of money out of the workers' paychecks.

VB inc · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2013, 12:19 »

Quote from: cobalt on November 16, 2012, 16:22

Do you really want a manager of a company with 40 000 employees to earn 50 000 dollars a year? Or 200 000? You will never get any good people for that money. If they end up in court they get huge fines, maybe several hundred million. And they might not actually be at fault, just very bad business luck, it can happen.

Maybe we shouldnt have 40,000 employees in a company to begin with.

RacePhoto · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2013, 12:44 »

What idiot would take this job?

"The President shall receive in full for his services during the term for which he shall have been elected compensation in the aggregate amount of $400,000 a year, to be paid monthly, and in addition an expense allowance of $50,000 to assist in defraying expenses relating to or resulting from the discharge of his official duties."

And he has to manage a whole darn country!

CEOs are over compensated, that's it. Most of the pay is desperation by the investors who hope they can pay someone a really big amount and get a really smart person to manage their business. Most of the time, it's the company that makes the difference, not the CEO. (not saying all the time, just most of the time)

Speaking of unions, when they no longer provide for the workers to enhance their pay, stand up for abuse, hazardous conditions or work environment, they cease to be useful. That's the point where many of them are now. Unions fail when they live for the benefit of the Union and not the members.

Some like the teachers unions are examples of political bullies with too much power. They are holding the schools and the public hostage. I find most of their demands and politics upsetting. If the education system in this country worked, I'm me much more inclined to support them. Instead it's broken, doesn't teach, has failed and isn't getting any better with more pay, more teachers or more of their demands being met.

Want another interesting union or two?

Railroad workers for Amtrak make an average salary of $85,000 a year. 50% of Amtrak's existence is subsidized by our taxes. I like railroads, I'm in favor of short, cross country, high speed and little trolly cars. But the waste with benefits and union demands, is burying Amtrak. If it was privatized, we'd see a whole different product.

Postal workers. And keep in mind they aren't government employees, but they aren't required to pay into social security. Much the same as Teachers and some other unions, you can get fired for stealing, in a snap, but just about anything else and you are protected.

Meanwhile the unions that need more power would be miners (for safety) and farm workers, even migrant workers also safety and the way some employers break child labor laws or take advantage of the workers with unreasonable quotas and hours.

Some are good, some questionable and some bad. It's not that all unions are any one thing.

Quote from: VB inc on February 02, 2013, 12:19

Quote from: cobalt on November 16, 2012, 16:22

Do you really want a manager of a company with 40 000 employees to earn 50 000 dollars a year? Or 200 000? You will never get any good people for that money. If they end up in court they get huge fines, maybe several hundred million. And they might not actually be at fault, just very bad business luck, it can happen.

Maybe we shouldnt have 40,000 employees in a company to begin with.

shotupdave · « **Reply #33 on:** February 02, 2013, 15:41 »

Yeah the privitied railroads for years were doing great, that is why they havd to have gov subsidies to keep them afloat and get special tax benefits too.

The USPS has its own version of SS so your point is ignorant and inane. They are the only union/company that has t pay forward in vast amount to pay for the benefits of futre not existing employees. That is why they are unprofitable at this time

And before you talk about the coal miners, the companies that own them are some of the largest recipients of OSHA fines, they repeatly ignore the warning and put their employees at risk. Read about Bloody Harland county and know the history of the mining industry before making such a comment, now you are just showing fox style stupidity

JPSDK · « **Reply #34 on:** February 02, 2013, 16:16 »

Resources are limited.

The American dream is false.
You can only get rich if 10 other people get poor.
Unions made the basis for the Scandinavian wellfare model, which is very successfull. Read the Economist.

It all has to do with realizing that being rich can only come at an expense.
Either natures expence, when you set up a sawmill in a virgin forest or if you abuse a population of miners.
Riches comes from taking wealth from someone else, by exploiting other peoples work or opportunities or nature.

Unions are one of the means that can distribute riches more equally and together with envioronmental laws they can actually help riches being distributed to many hands instead of a few hands that hold the power.
Societies thrive when their people are educated, healthy and productive.

ignard · « **Reply #35 on:** February 02, 2013, 17:09 »

Strike?

What is a strike???

The only strike we know of in Holland is the score in a bowling match

lisafx · « **Reply #36 on:** February 02, 2013, 17:09 »

Quote from: JPSDK on February 02, 2013, 16:16

Resources are limited.

The American dream is false.
You can only get rich if 10 other people get poor.
Unions made the basis for the Scandinavian wellfare model, which is very successfull. Read the Economist.

It all has to do with realizing that being rich can only come at an expense.
Either natures expence, when you set up a sawmill in a virgin forest or if you abuse a population of miners.
Riches comes from taking wealth from someone else, by exploiting other peoples work or opportunities or nature.

Unions are one of the means that can distribute riches more equally and together with envioronmental laws they can actually help riches being distributed to many hands instead of a few hands that hold the power.
Societies thrive when their people are educated, healthy and productive.

Applauding here. Great post! Wish more people could wrap their brains around this concept.

heywoody · « **Reply #37 on:** February 02, 2013, 17:41 »

Quote from: lisafx on February 02, 2013, 17:09

Quote from: JPSDK on February 02, 2013, 16:16
Resources are limited.

The American dream is false.
You can only get rich if 10 other people get poor.
Unions made the basis for the Scandinavian wellfare model, which is very successfull. Read the Economist.

It all has to do with realizing that being rich can only come at an expense.
Either natures expence, when you set up a sawmill in a virgin forest or if you abuse a population of miners.
Riches comes from taking wealth from someone else, by exploiting other peoples work or opportunities or nature.

Unions are one of the means that can distribute riches more equally and together with envioronmental laws they can actually help riches being distributed to many hands instead of a few hands that hold the power.
Societies thrive when their people are educated, healthy and productive.

Applauding here. Great post! Wish more people could wrap their brains around this concept.

+1

RacePhoto · « **Reply #38 on:** February 02, 2013, 23:43 »

The message said Amtrak and it's not really privatized and it's failing. Go back to the union connection. $85,000 a year is average pay? Do you understand what that means? Amtrak should be privatized. Taxpayers cover $32 per rider loss through federal government subsidies. Last year, taxpayers gave Amtrak $1.3 billion in direct payments.

USPS is at risk of going out of business. The market shifted. The point was that USPS has it's own pension fund. Why? How come they have it but we can't? Why are they exempt? I'm also for five day delivery and more cost cutting. Sorry subs and utility people, regular work week would help the company and the carriers. And it takes new workers to fund the future of current workers, less people, less funding. Eventually it collapses like a pyramid scheme.

I was saying that miners need better protection, what message did you read? Paying fines and putting people at risk, is not the answer and OSHA is often a waste of time. Places getting fined for the wrong color lines on the floor, and ridiculous nit picking regulations, while workers are put at risk and danger?

Quote from: shotupdave on February 02, 2013, 15:41

Yeah the privitied railroads for years were doing great, that is why they havd to have gov subsidies to keep them afloat and get special tax benefits too.

The USPS has its own version of SS so your point is ignorant and inane. They are the only union/company that has t pay forward in vast amount to pay for the benefits of futre not existing employees. That is why they are unprofitable at this time

And before you talk about the coal miners, the companies that own them are some of the largest recipients of OSHA fines, they repeatly ignore the warning and put their employees at risk. Read about Bloody Harland county and know the history of the mining industry before making such a comment, now you are just showing fox style stupidity

shotupdave · « **Reply #39 on:** February 03, 2013, 00:34 »

Ask congress why the USPS has a separate pension plan, it was them who set that up, you also failed to comment on the pre-paid pension plan. Last year they actually would have made money of they did ot have to pay forward. No other company in the world has this kind of plan, and getting rid of the post office is actually unconstitutional. You have the talk of fox new down perfect, under your analogy any pension plan will fail under its own weight. Again the facts do not support your opinion.

admin edit: removed insulting language from post

JPSDK · « **Reply #40 on:** February 03, 2013, 02:44 »

Thanks Lisa and Woody.

aspp · « **Reply #41 on:** February 03, 2013, 12:20 »

Quote from: shotupdave on February 03, 2013, 00:34

Ask congress why the USPS has a separate pension plan, it was them who set that up, you also failed to comment on the pre-paid pension plan. Last year they actually would have made money of they did ot have to pay forward. No other company in the world has this kind of plan, and getting rid of the post office is actually unconstitutional.

I have the impression that various aspects of the US constitution are under attack. The private courier services would love to carve up a privatized USPS. Fine if you want to send a package city to city. Not so fine when you want to send a birthday card to your aunt outside Hicksville.

RacePhoto · « **Reply #42 on:** February 03, 2013, 20:59 »

Yes apparently we have a communications problem, I was saying the unions would HELP in some cases. Forget it and you can drop rude the insults, it has nothing to do with the debate.

Many pension plans that were solid and looked like they could stand forever went bankrupt. Pay attention. Nothing is guaranteed and nothing is forever. The workers got screwed in these deals as the company sold and the new owners bailed out. The employees lost their health care and their pensions.

Quote from: shotupdave on February 03, 2013, 00:34

Remember Amtrak took over private companies that failed, or does not that make it in your history. So again your analogies are inane and ignorant.

Ask congress why the USPS has a separate pension plan, it was them who set that up, you also failed to comment on the pre-paid pension plan. Last year they actually would have made money of they did ot have to pay forward. No other company in the world has this kind of plan, and getting rid of the post office is actually unconstitutional. You have the talk of fox new down perfect, under your analogy any pension plan will fail under its own weight. Again the facts do not support your opinion.

I did read your post quite well and you try to blame the unions for unsafe conditions. Not the owners at all. Just another hypocrite, without the facts you look like a fool

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #43 on:** February 03, 2013, 21:05 »

"Unions are one of the means that can distribute riches more equally and together with envioronmental laws they can actually help riches being distributed to many hands instead of a few hands that hold the power."

That's garbage. Talent and skill and the market will self 'distribute' wealth as deserved. I don't want anything forcefully 'redistributed'.

Reaktori · « **Reply #44 on:** February 03, 2013, 21:36 »

Quote from: sjlocke on February 03, 2013, 21:05

"Unions are one of the means that can distribute riches more equally and together with envioronmental laws they can actually help riches being distributed to many hands instead of a few hands that hold the power."

That's garbage. Talent and skill and the market will self 'distribute' wealth as deserved. I don't want anything forcefully 'redistributed'.

Like to Getty and their owners in recent?

shotupdave · « **Reply #45 on:** February 03, 2013, 22:27 »

Unions help in all occasions not some, they set the benchmark in wages and benefits, without unions the wage and benefits are a race to the bottom as we are seeing now. Again your claim about pensions is false and misguide.

The top 10 pensions that were lost were due to management failures, just like Hostess.

djpadavona · « **Reply #46 on:** February 04, 2013, 06:00 »

Quote from: sjlocke on February 03, 2013, 21:05

"Unions are one of the means that can distribute riches more equally and together with envioronmental laws they can actually help riches being distributed to many hands instead of a few hands that hold the power."

That's garbage. Talent and skill and the market will self 'distribute' wealth as deserved. I don't want anything forcefully 'redistributed'.

Unfortunately very few seem to believe this anymore. It is far easier to demonize success.

gostwyck · « **Reply #47 on:** February 04, 2013, 10:59 »

Quote from: sjlocke on February 03, 2013, 21:05

"Unions are one of the means that can distribute riches more equally and together with envioronmental laws they can actually help riches being distributed to many hands instead of a few hands that hold the power."

That's garbage. Talent and skill and the market will self 'distribute' wealth as deserved. I don't want anything forcefully 'redistributed'.

Both statements are 'garbage' as far as I'm concerned. Unbridled capitalism doesn't work much better than communism __ that's how we got into the financial mess we're in. Capitalism needs to be regulated by good governance. Unions don't re-distribute wealth either (unions bosses are often some of the worst offenders when it comes to grabbing all the money for themselves), again good governance does that. Unions nowadays are more about employee security and legal insurance than pay awards.

RacePhoto · « **Reply #48 on:** February 04, 2013, 20:44 »

I can see this is going nowhere. The OP claim was that Unions ruined Hostess. It's wrong. Management failed to expand into a world market, failed to stay in tune with changes in consumer demand, failed to develop new products or a modern marketing strategy. Yes the bakers could have kept things going by agreeing to a pay cut, but it was a train wreck waiting to happen. Hostess was going to go bankrupt either way.

Sometimes Unions are a positive, and very beneficial. Sometimes a negative, and lead to the ruin of a good company. When they are only out for The Union, the workers are screwed and the company has no power to negotiate anything more to satisfy The Union.

Hostess wasn't a union problem in the end, it was a failed business plan, that wasn't changing or adapting. It was doomed. Kind of like many other business and product extinctions in the face of change.

Batman · « **Reply #49 on:** February 06, 2013, 10:12 »

Quote from: shotupdave on February 02, 2013, 15:41

Yeah the privitied railroads for years were doing great, that is why they havd to have gov subsidies to keep them afloat and get special tax benefits too.

The USPS has its own version of SS so your point is ignorant and inane. They are the only union/company that has t pay forward in vast amount to pay for the benefits of futre not existing employees. That is why they are unprofitable at this time

And before you talk about the coal miners, the companies that own them are some of the largest recipients of OSHA fines, they repeatly ignore the warning and put their employees at risk. Read about Bloody Harland county and know the history of the mining industry before making such a comment, now you are just showing fox style stupidity

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Postal Service is planning to drop Saturday delivery of first-class mail by August, a congressional source said on Wednesday.

The move is part of the mail carrier's larger effort to aggressively to cut costs amid rising use of email and the Internet as well as looming payments for future retiree's health benefits. USPS lost almost $16 billion last year.

The 237-year-old institution has already run into its legal borrowing limit and defaulted twice on required payments to the federal government.

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Author Topic: Unions kill another Company (Read 12558 times)

michaeldb

cathyslife

jbarber873

tab62

Milinz

EmberMike

VB inc

RacePhoto

shotupdave

JPSDK

ignard

lisafx

heywoody

RacePhoto

shotupdave

JPSDK

aspp

RacePhoto

Sean Locke Photography

Reaktori

shotupdave

djpadavona

gostwyck

RacePhoto

Batman

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