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Author Topic: Uniting contributors for better royalty, price control and safeguarding this industry  (Read 13883 times)

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Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #225 on: April 08, 2019, 13:33 »
+1
Quote
and less than 0.7% of their clips on Pond5 have sold, so what happened to "great visibility"? :)

Only 27 clips out of half a million have 5 sales or more, and they've been around for a while now.



Sorry, just curious. Is there a statistics page that we can check other people's sales?
Not interested in BB, asking in general, I didn't knew there is such an option.

?

Not immediately visible anymore, but the P5 search allows you to get a lot of information.

For example:

artist:blackboxguild

will show all clips from BlackBoxGuild. And artist:georgep7 would show all of your clips if that's your username.

salegt:0

will show clips with "sales greater than 0" = 1 sale or more.

So,

artist:blackboxguild salegt:0

in the search bar will show you all the clips by BlackBoxGuild that have 1 sale or more. Salegt:4 shows clips with 5 sales or more.

Very interesting to check some of the loud voices with strong opinions in the forums, with 3 sales from 2,000 clips... ;)

Great information and interesting.



swisschocolate

  • A girl from the Alps
« Reply #226 on: April 08, 2019, 14:15 »
+2
Watching closely SS "great news" for illustrators thread... https://forums.submit.shutterstock.com/topic/96928-shutterstock-has-made-uploading-vectors-easier-than-ever

Such moment may be a good opportunity to form a union, if someone would have a plan how to actually make it...

Otherwise looks scary. Wondering if illustrators will find a way to change the decision.
As for now, there is a petition and many many posts.

What else could help them? Stop uploading all together? But what is the instrument to organize such big virtual crowd?

That would be true, maybe someone can come up with an idea.

Posts on forum and petition worked.

Shutterstock:

"Hi everyone,

Thanks again for all your feedback, which we are closely reviewing! In light of the information that has been shared here, we are postponing the implementation of the 4MP requirement as we continue to look into ways to accommodate the needs of all artists and their artwork. We should have another update tomorrow."

« Reply #227 on: April 09, 2019, 00:21 »
0
Blackbox does take 15% of net sales however, so that's not for everybody.

...and less than 0.7% of their clips on Pond5 have sold, so what happened to "great visibility"? :)

Only 27 clips out of half a million have 5 sales or more, and they've been around for a while now.

But it is a great way to get lost in the mix. ;)

That's very interesting data, thanks for that.

Although, it would be even more interesting to compare it to total sales of P5 since BB has been implemented, cause the meaning of stats can be twisted easily when isolated. Who knows, maybe P5 has not been performing that well in the last 2 years - They did mention that they are losing clients to competitors.  8)

« Reply #228 on: April 09, 2019, 00:53 »
+1
On another note, we should petition SS, AS, IS and P5 to implement a new (or better) contributor level in order to reward long term contributors and/or video content that sells regularly.

Currently:
SS: contributor level does not apply to videos
AS: seems to be discontinuing FT contributor level
IS: only applicable to exclusive content
P5: doesn't exist


swisschocolate

  • A girl from the Alps
« Reply #229 on: April 09, 2019, 01:20 »
+2
IS: only applicable to exclusive content

With targets which they raise every year... It became just another instrument to pay less, unfortunately.

« Reply #230 on: April 09, 2019, 03:25 »
+1
Blackbox does take 15% of net sales however, so that's not for everybody.

...and less than 0.7% of their clips on Pond5 have sold, so what happened to "great visibility"? :)

Only 27 clips out of half a million have 5 sales or more, and they've been around for a while now.

But it is a great way to get lost in the mix. ;)

That's very interesting data, thanks for that.

Although, it would be even more interesting to compare it to total sales of P5 since BB has been implemented, cause the meaning of stats can be twisted easily when isolated. Who knows, maybe P5 has not been performing that well in the last 2 years - They did mention that they are losing clients to competitors.  8)

Then let me further brighten your day! :)

I cannot give you the data for ALL clips since BlackBoxGuild started selling, but I can give you the data for all clips uploaded since BlackBoxGuild started selling, which might even be a better comparison. Although 0.7% of clips sold is absolutely terrible by almost any time frame (down to a month or so), let's dive deeper.

---

Pond5 make it incredibly difficult to browse a large portfolio like BlackBoxGuild's (another reason for not selling with others), but this is the first clip they uploaded:

https://www.pond5.com/stock-footage/55100531/caribou-cross-frozen-tundra.html

This was around July of 2015.

---

itemgt:"item number" will show all items uploaded after that number, and the opposite is true for itemlt:"item number".

itemgt:55100530 artist:blackboxguild will show all clips uploaded by BlackBoxGuild (55100531 being the first one).

itemgt:55100530 will show ALL clips uploaded to Pond5 since BlackBoxGuild uploaded that first clip.

---

Feel free to do the sale searches yourself, but these are the results (hopefully I didn't screw anything up):

BlackBoxGuild:

0.68% of clips sold.

PRICE WAS SET TO $78 and above before any of the price activists freak out, but the results were very similar even with all price points. ;)

Pond5 total since July 2015, not counting clips uploaded before July 2015:

2.94% of clips sold.

BlackBoxGuild:

1 out of 20,000 clips sold 5 times or more.

Pond5 total:

1 out of 693 clips sold 5 times or more.

---

Decent portfolios should have MUCH better results, at least 10-15% of all clips sold after a couple of years. Even that I think is low...

---

So we can clearly see that the BlackBoxGuild results were absolutely terrible compared to the overall average, and that's even with the BlackBoxGuild clips pulling the average DOWN.

---

I had to run the numbers again WITHOUT the BlackBoxGuild clips pulling down the P5 average (using !artist:BlackBoxGuild to exclude those clips):

3.2% of clips sold.

0.16% or 1 out of 620 clips sold 5 times or more. An even bigger difference.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 03:39 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #231 on: April 09, 2019, 03:49 »
0
Blackbox does take 15% of net sales however, so that's not for everybody.


...and less than 0.7% of their clips on Pond5 have sold, so what happened to "great visibility"? :)

Only 27 clips out of half a million have 5 sales or more, and they've been around for a while now.

But it is a great way to get lost in the mix. ;)


That's very interesting data, thanks for that.

Although, it would be even more interesting to compare it to total sales of P5 since BB has been implemented, cause the meaning of stats can be twisted easily when isolated. Who knows, maybe P5 has not been performing that well in the last 2 years - They did mention that they are losing clients to competitors.  8)


Then let me further brighten your day! :)

I cannot give you the data for ALL clips since BlackBoxGuild started selling, but I can give you the data for all clips uploaded since BlackBoxGuild started selling, which might even be a better comparison. Although 0.7% of clips sold is absolutely terrible by almost any time frame (down to a month or so), let's dive deeper.

---

Pond5 make it incredibly difficult to browse a large portfolio like BlackBoxGuild's (another reason for not selling with others), but this is the first clip they uploaded:

https://www.pond5.com/stock-footage/55100531/caribou-cross-frozen-tundra.html

This was around July of 2015.

---

itemgt:"item number" will show all items uploaded after that number, and the opposite is true for itemlt:"item number".

itemgt:55100530 artist:blackboxguild will show all clips uploaded by BlackBoxGuild (55100531 being the first one).

itemgt:55100530 will show ALL clips uploaded to Pond5 since BlackBoxGuild uploaded that first clip.

---

Feel free to do the sale searches yourself, but these are the results (hopefully I didn't screw anything up):

BlackBoxGuild:

0.68% of clips sold.

PRICE WAS SET TO $78 and above before any of the price activists freak out, but the results were very similar even with all price points. ;)

Pond5 total since July 2015, not counting clips uploaded before July 2015:

2.94% of clips sold.

BlackBoxGuild:

1 out of 20,000 clips sold 5 times or more.

Pond5 total:

1 out of 693 clips sold 5 times or more.

---

Decent portfolios should have MUCH better results, at least 10-15% of all clips sold after a couple of years. Even that I think is low...

---

So we can clearly see that the BlackBoxGuild results were absolutely terrible compared to the overall average, and that's even with the BlackBoxGuild clips pulling the average DOWN.

---

I had to run the numbers again WITHOUT the BlackBoxGuild clips pulling down the P5 average (using !artist:BlackBoxGuild to exclude those clips):

3.2% of clips sold.

0.16% or 1 out of 620 clips sold 5 times or more. An even bigger difference.


Thanks, still raining over here thou ;)

Did some digging in the forum and we'd need the calculations from end 2016 - beginning 2017 to be as accurate as possible :-[

"BlackBoxPat
I shoot video
Reply #32 on: December 05, 2017, 20:56
Quote #link0  Vote Up
Hey there, I'm the Founder of newbielink:http://www.BlackBox.global [nonactive]. We've been up for almost a year and creators that are using the platform seem very happy. BB is an "upload once get to many" platform that also afford members the ability to collaborate and share in the revenue streams that the footage generates. We try to make the process simple so you can stop dealing with the agencies and concentrate on making great footage. Have a look for yourself. Thank you."


Anyway, I wasn't advertising for them, just that some people mentioned a coop or virtual agency within an agency so I've used BB as an example of what is currently around, so if someone wants to start something similar but do it differently, they can check what works and what doesn't.

« Reply #232 on: April 09, 2019, 04:09 »
0
Thanks, still raining over here thou ;)

Did some digging in the forum and we'd need the calculations from end 2016 - beginning 2017 to be as accurate as possible :-[

"BlackBoxPat
I shoot video
Reply #32 on: December 05, 2017, 20:56
Quote #link0  Vote Up
Hey there, I'm the Founder of newbielink:http://www.BlackBox.global [nonactive]. We've been up for almost a year and creators that are using the platform seem very happy. BB is an "upload once get to many" platform that also afford members the ability to collaborate and share in the revenue streams that the footage generates. We try to make the process simple so you can stop dealing with the agencies and concentrate on making great footage. Have a look for yourself. Thank you."


Anyway, I wasn't advertising for them, just that some people mentioned a coop or virtual agency within an agency so I've used BB as an example of what is currently around, so if someone wants to start something similar but do it differently, they can check what works and what doesn't.


Fair enough, I did those numbers, and it's not looking much better for BlackBoxGuild...

BlackBoxGuild numbers since beginning of 2017:

0.61% sold at least once.

1 out of 57,000 sold 5 times or more. That's 10 clips.

---

Pond5 total since beginning of 2017 (without BlackBoxGuild, price set to $78 and above):

2% of clips sold at least once.

1 out of 1,752 sold 5 times or more.

---

So, the Pond5 average was 3.27 times better for 1+ sales, and 32-33 times better for 5+ sales. Remove 15% from BlackBoxGuild sales and it's not getting any better...

---

I didn't accuse you of advertising for them, you just inspired me to run the numbers since several people (here and on YouTube etc.) did promote them intensely, because they were promised that nice referral $$$.

The only winner here is of course BlackBoxGuild. They got half a million clips they didn't have to film themselves, or even pay for, awesome!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 04:12 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #233 on: April 09, 2019, 04:14 »
0
Quote
Then let me further brighten your day! :)

Well, it was informational but not brightening for some of us :P
Following your instructions I applied those "commands" to me and
got a return of only 12 clips curator rated 3, all 450 others are below this from 2 to zero.
(like I didn't knew my clips suck...)


« Reply #234 on: April 09, 2019, 04:19 »
+1
Quote
Then let me further brighten your day! :)

Well, it was informational but not brightening for some of us :P
Following your instructions I applied those "commands" to me and
got a return of only 12 clips curator rated 3, all 450 others are below this from 2 to zero.
(like I didn't knew my clips suck...)

Sorry about that! But at least in Greece you get plenty of sun!

Anyway, I don't know how much those ratings really mean. My bestseller has a lower rating than most of my other clips. It might matter when they pick clips for their collections.

...and there are plenty of BlackBox clips with the highest rating that are quite bad, with 0 sales.

For example, this clip has the highest rating: https://www.pond5.com/stock-footage/105008987/duck-swimming-day.html

You might almost think that the reviewer might be using BlackBox. ;)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 04:25 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #235 on: April 09, 2019, 04:27 »
0
Yeah BB is definitely the winner, but also people sharing revenue.

It's nice to try and unite all photographers for better royalties, but I think it's nicer when we involve all other people working in the same industry, people that we hire and work with (actors, make up artists, location scouts, editors and so on...). That's the big plus that only BB offers (for the time being), and I'm really fond of this, giving people I work with the choice to get either a % or a flat fee. With a %, they also give a better performance as otherwise they might not care as much if it sells or not.

We can also reach a broader audience by involving them and then have more weight on agencies great and exciting news.


« Reply #236 on: April 09, 2019, 04:39 »
+3
Yeah BB is definitely the winner, but also people sharing revenue.

It's nice to try and unite all photographers for better royalties, but I think it's nicer when we involve all other people working in the same industry, people that we hire and work with (actors, make up artists, location scouts, editors and so on...). That's the big plus that only BB offers (for the time being), and I'm really fond of this, giving people I work with the choice to get either a % or a flat fee. With a %, they also give a better performance as otherwise they might not care as much if it sells or not.

We can also reach a broader audience by involving them and then have more weight on agencies great and exciting news.

BlackBox are great at marketing (their service, not your clips). In fact, they were phenomenal at marketing themselves. And taking your money. :)

I'm sorry, but that's how it is (in my opinion). I share revenue just fine without them.

If you want to maximize revenue, control your assets as much as you can. We must work with middlemen to some extent, but I think it's really important to minimize it.

What happens when you want to update tags or descriptions? I do this pretty much WEEKLY to optimize performance in the various search engines.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 04:47 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #237 on: April 09, 2019, 07:50 »
0
I have about the same sales ratio with bb or selling direct, although I am still new there and only have 160 files listed sofar. Started uploading last autumn, got sales pretty quickly.

On pond5 roughly 12% of my files have sold at least once, but it did take 18 months before my portfolio really started selling.

I think you are underestimating BB, they really are new.

When I joined last autumn, they had 4000 contributors, now they have over 30 000. So the majority of the content is extremly fresh.

Look again in 2-3 years and then see what the community says.

It also depends how much stock experience you have. I am now much better at producing saleable content then I was 6 years ago when I started with video.

Interesting to see that so many of the more loud mouthed contributors on pond5 with extremly large portfolios have very low sell rates, often below 3%.

Some of them are probaly balancing that out with high prices, but the upload time alone with such a result would frustrate me.

I am still learning about different themes, completly new to editorial video. Also surprised that simple walk around clips of animals, flowers are actually selling.

Video is an interesting journey, hoping to add 2000 clips in total this year.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 07:57 by cobalt »

« Reply #238 on: April 09, 2019, 08:04 »
+1
When I joined last autumn, they had 4000 contributors, now they have over 30 000. So the majority of the content is extremly fresh.

Like I said, their marketing toward producers is very good.

If you're happy with it, that's all that matters, but people should just be aware that:

Advantages = Less upload time.

Disadvantages = Everything else.

---

When your clips are lost in a portfolio pool of half a million other clips it is virtually impossible for a buyer to find clips they didn't happen to find with a very exact search.

On the other hand, if you have 500 clips, and a buyer finds your style interesting, they might just go to your portfolio and find clips they wouldn't have searched for.

And their title strategy is just sad - copying the description, while cutting it off mid-word or mid-sentence. It makes me cry inside. ;(

« Reply #239 on: April 09, 2019, 08:22 »
0
It works for me.

I am treating blackbox as an additional agency and in time I will find content that I prefer to send there.

But so far I am really happy, it makes quite a big difference to my workflow, uploading costs a lot of time.

I agree that customers cannot bookmark you and you cannot sort your content by theme like on pond5 and now on shutterstock.

But I have a lot of files that are really generic.

Also, it does have the advantage that people cannot see all you have. While on pond5 you can see the bb bestsellers, the personal strategy gets lost in the collection. So part of my portfolio will be a more hidden moneymaker.

It is similar to working with image distributors like cavan or westend or eyeem. Although these places also offer direct sales, most sales come from a wide range of partners.

Again, everyone has to decide what is best for them. This works for me.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 08:28 by cobalt »

« Reply #240 on: April 09, 2019, 08:57 »
+2
I don't get why anyone would pay 15% of their sales to get videos uploaded to Shutterstock, Adobe Stock, Pond5, Storyblocks and VimeoStock? 

« Reply #241 on: April 09, 2019, 09:23 »
+1
I don't get why anyone would pay 15% of their sales to get videos uploaded to Shutterstock, Adobe Stock, Pond5, Storyblocks and VimeoStock?
I'm kind of lost too....its actually 18% it seems "BlackBox charges a 15% commission plus a transaction fee (approximately 3%) on a back end basis. ". For doing hugely less than an agency. Isn't this just adding a link to feed in the food chain? Or am I missing something?


« Reply #242 on: April 09, 2019, 09:42 »
+1
It saves a lot of time.

Those 30 000 people who signed up are not stupid.

BB has excellent collaboration tools for people who work in teams or want to pay talent, location owners, post processors with a percentage.

It is a collaboration plattform, have a look at the excellent and helpful community vibe in their facebook group.

And the place is new, who says that 2 years down they dont open their own store or offer a premium collection or a plattform for more than stock clips?

They also offer a network of curators and post processors, so if you have hard drives full of files, but no time, you can turn it over to them and they will extract and process and upload it all for you. They then again get paid a percentage that you are free to negotiate.

Some people just want to shoot and not everyone has a team at home with assistants...or a wife or other magical house elf...:)

I am too stingy to give my files to a processor, but I can see myself teaming up with talent or for projects that I am not sure I would commit cash too.

Image distributors often take 50%, so I think this is a very affordable offer.

But it is not for everyone, I agree.

ETA: BB has their own contracts with agencies for better royalty and placements, so you dont always lose the full 15%.

So var my results are good.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 09:45 by cobalt »

« Reply #243 on: April 09, 2019, 09:53 »
0

ETA: BB has their own contracts with agencies for better royalty and placements, so you dont always lose the full 15%.

What rates with what sites?

« Reply #244 on: April 09, 2019, 09:54 »
+1
It works for me.

I am treating blackbox as an additional agency and in time I will find content that I prefer to send there.

But so far I am really happy, it makes quite a big difference to my workflow, uploading costs a lot of time.

I agree that customers cannot bookmark you and you cannot sort your content by theme like on pond5 and now on shutterstock.

But I have a lot of files that are really generic.

Also, it does have the advantage that people cannot see all you have. While on pond5 you can see the bb bestsellers, the personal strategy gets lost in the collection. So part of my portfolio will be a more hidden moneymaker.

It is similar to working with image distributors like cavan or westend or eyeem. Although these places also offer direct sales, most sales come from a wide range of partners.

Again, everyone has to decide what is best for them. This works for me.

Same here I'm using it as an additional agency that I use for partnerships. For my other work, I'm still uploading directly to each website.

With the 15%, you just upload to one website, and they re-distribute to all of them, which is good if you don't have a speedy internet connection. They also take care of the royalty split when involved with others, as this would be too much of a headache to deal with. And they provide a platform where you can upload your footage, and look for people to edit and/or keyword for a share of the footage in return. So basically you can just focus on what you like and do best, and leave the tasks you don't enjoy to others.

I agree thou with the 15% being excessive and I'd be happy to collaborate somewhere cheaper but haven't found any other place just yet.

If you like shooting & editing alone and have a fast internet, then you probably have no use for them.



« Reply #245 on: April 09, 2019, 10:04 »
0

I agree thou with the 15% being excessive and I'd be happy to collaborate somewhere cheaper but haven't found any other place just yet.

If you like shooting & editing alone and have a fast internet, then you probably have no use for them.
Doesn't "collaboration" cost more than 15%?

« Reply #246 on: April 09, 2019, 10:13 »
0

ETA: BB has their own contracts with agencies for better royalty and placements, so you dont always lose the full 15%.

What rates with what sites?

You will have to ask the BB management, just like everywhere.

I also dont know what deals eyeem has with getty or alamy or wherever else they send files.

Or any other distribution program...I also found some of my pond5 files on vimeo, I have no idea what their deal is and what percentage I am getting as a result.

« Reply #247 on: April 09, 2019, 10:16 »
0

ETA: BB has their own contracts with agencies for better royalty and placements, so you dont always lose the full 15%.

What rates with what sites?

You will have to ask the BB management, just like everywhere.

I also dont know what deals eyeem has with getty or alamy or wherever else they send files.

Or any other distribution program...I also found some of my pond5 files on vimeo, I have no idea what their deal is and what percentage I am getting as a result.
Are you saying you don't know what rates they get?

« Reply #248 on: April 09, 2019, 10:18 »
0

I agree thou with the 15% being excessive and I'd be happy to collaborate somewhere cheaper but haven't found any other place just yet.

If you like shooting & editing alone and have a fast internet, then you probably have no use for them.
Doesn't "collaboration" cost more than 15%?


Of course, but that is entirely up to you and your project partners. How much you want to pay actors, camera people, post processor...that is entirely up to you.

Or, you pay them cash, which is what I have been doing so far with people.

Some people have assistants they pay a monthly wage to, quite a few of my friends have that.

This way I could find people to team up with and we share the results.

It is an option that you can use.

Of course you can do the sharing right now yourself, but if the tool is built in, you dont have to worry about it.

« Reply #249 on: April 09, 2019, 10:21 »
0

I agree thou with the 15% being excessive and I'd be happy to collaborate somewhere cheaper but haven't found any other place just yet.

If you like shooting & editing alone and have a fast internet, then you probably have no use for them.
Doesn't "collaboration" cost more than 15%?


Of course, but that is entirely up to you and your project partners. How much you want to pay actors, camera people, post processor...that is entirely up to you.

Or, you pay them cash, which is what I have been doing so far with people.

Some people have assistants they pay a monthly wage to, quite a few of my friends have that.

This way I could find people to team up with and we share the results.

It is an option that you can use.

Of course you can do the sharing right now yourself, but if the tool is built in, you dont have to worry about it.
In those agreements what happens if you take your videos off Black box and put them up on the sites yourself?  What's the copyright situation with these works?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 10:24 by tickstock »


 

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