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Author Topic: Uniting contributors for better royalty, price control and safeguarding this industry  (Read 14027 times)

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« Reply #250 on: April 09, 2019, 10:23 »
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I ave absolutely no idea what pond5 has negotiated with vimeo or any other partner, or eyeem with getty.

I get 50% of whatever eyeem gets and with pond5 now 40% for non exclusive content.

Have you NEVER worked with distribution?

It is also not just about royalties, on many agencies large studios or aggregators also negotiate placement of files in differntly tiered rankings.

Have a look at gettyimages, they have over 200 feeder partners plus their own artists and those from istock.

What shows up on the first page is mix of negotiated rankings plus search algorythms.

Some collections or partners always show up on page 1, others are always way back.

They keep shifting these things around and renegotiate with partners all the time.

The only way to avoid this, is if you only upload to agencies that have no partners or if you always opt out of partner distribution.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 10:29 by cobalt »


« Reply #251 on: April 09, 2019, 10:28 »
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- In those agreements what happens if you take your videos off Black box and put them up on the sites yourself?  What's the copyright situation with these works?



That is something you negotiate with your partners. Blackbox does not own the copyright. They just offer a money sharing tool, the legal stuff is always your responsibility.

You also still need releases, like always.

Dont like BB, dont work with them.



« Reply #252 on: April 09, 2019, 10:29 »
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You said they get a higher royalty rate so I'm asking what that is? 
You talk about benefits of collaboration so I'm asking how copyright is handled, what if decide to pull that content from Black box and upload it on your own?
I'm not criticizing distributions deals on their own I'm trying to figure out how this one works.

« Reply #253 on: April 09, 2019, 10:31 »
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- In those agreements what happens if you take your videos off Black box and put them up on the sites yourself?  What's the copyright situation with these works?



That is something you negotiate with your partners. Blackbox does not own the copyright. They just offer a money sharing tool, the legal stuff is always your responsibility.

You also still need releases, like always.

Dont like BB, dont work with them.
So you have to negotiate how long you'll keep the file on black box and all the other terms for each project?  One of their selling points is that you don't need a lawyer to handle that kind of boring business drudgery. 
"Pay somebody else to do it.
Yes, you can pay lawyers and accountants and managers and administrators and marketers to take care of the business drudgery for you, if you have the money up front, before your creative product has started generating revenue for you. And even if you can afford to pay someone else up front, you cant escape the business drudgery entirely because you still have to stay on top of all the people youre paying to make sure things are getting done and getting done the right way.

FACT: The business drudgery takes money and it takes time.

So, youre not going to do it yourself and you have no money or time to have somebody else do it? Theres one more option and its a pretty good one.

Use BlackBox"

« Reply #254 on: April 09, 2019, 10:40 »
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Why dont you ask BB directly? It is a very valid question.

Personally I would always do my own contract when it comes to copyright and otherwise people would simply be paid in royalties instead of cash, the way it is done now.

You also need to consider what happens if BB disappears?

How will sales be handled then?

The place is new, nothing is perfect. I think it is an excellent option for what I do.

But I havent done any collaborations yet, too stingy :)


« Reply #255 on: April 09, 2019, 10:48 »
+1

I agree thou with the 15% being excessive and I'd be happy to collaborate somewhere cheaper but haven't found any other place just yet.

If you like shooting & editing alone and have a fast internet, then you probably have no use for them.
Doesn't "collaboration" cost more than 15%?


Of course, but that is entirely up to you and your project partners. How much you want to pay actors, camera people, post processor...that is entirely up to you.

Or, you pay them cash, which is what I have been doing so far with people.

Some people have assistants they pay a monthly wage to, quite a few of my friends have that.

This way I could find people to team up with and we share the results.

It is an option that you can use.

Of course you can do the sharing right now yourself, but if the tool is built in, you dont have to worry about it.
In those agreements what happens if you take your videos off Black box and put them up on the sites yourself?  What's the copyright situation with these works?

I don't think it is possible to delete your content once uploaded to all websites otherwise it would be too easy to have your editing and metadata done by someone for a %, and then remove it all and upload to your own websites (but probably if all 'sharers' agree to have it removed and message support that should be possible).

As for the copyright situation, it is split between the 'sharers'.
''BlackBox will not own any content, only members can own content. we offer creators the ability to collaborate and share in the ownership of content.

What are "Shares"?
Shares are the percentage of a given piece of content that you own and therefore, the portion of revenue that you will make when the content sells, often for years.''

For a collaborative project, each creator that contributes to the creation of the content becomes a Sharer.

More info here: https://www.blackbox.global/faq

« Reply #256 on: April 09, 2019, 10:55 »
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I don't think it is possible to delete your content once uploaded to all websites otherwise it would be too easy to have your editing and metadata done by someone for a %, and then remove it all and upload to your own websites (but probably if all 'sharers' agree to have it removed and message support that should be possible).

As for the copyright situation, it is split between the 'sharers'.
''BlackBox will not own any content, only members can own content. we offer creators the ability to collaborate and share in the ownership of content.

What are "Shares"?
Shares are the percentage of a given piece of content that you own and therefore, the portion of revenue that you will make when the content sells, often for years.''

For a collaborative project, each creator that contributes to the creation of the content becomes a Sharer.

More info here: https://www.blackbox.global/faq
I see you need to get permission to take down "jointly created content" which seems to include videos that someone else just keyworded.  It doesn't say anything about how that is determined or if they will ever agree to it.  Seems like a huge risk if something happens and all your work is stuck there.

« Reply #257 on: April 09, 2019, 11:21 »
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I see you need to get permission to take down "jointly created content" which seems to include videos that someone else just keyworded.  It doesn't say anything about how that is determined or if they will ever agree to it.  Seems like a huge risk if something happens and all your work is stuck there.

It is the same risk you have when uploading to Gettyimages directly as a house contributor or to many other places. They also don't allow you to remove individual files, you can just delete your account. Same for any other macro distributor that takes exclusive content. BB works the same way.

Getting a sharer permission is an additional step, but logical.

You need a large team to be able to chase down individual deactivations at partner agencies, it is not that easy. It has to be done manually from what I have heard elsewhere (not BB). With 40 000 contributors I understand that this would be expensive to do. Might also lead to what is described above, BB gets used for processing and metadata, then content gets deleted and goes elsewhere.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 11:28 by cobalt »

« Reply #258 on: April 09, 2019, 11:35 »
+1

I see you need to get permission to take down "jointly created content" which seems to include videos that someone else just keyworded.  It doesn't say anything about how that is determined or if they will ever agree to it.  Seems like a huge risk if something happens and all your work is stuck there.

It is the same risk you have when uploading to Gettyimages directly as a house contributor or to many other places. They also don't allow you to remove individual files, you can just delete your account. Same for any other macro distributor that takes exclusive content. BB works the same way.

getting a sharer permission is an additional step, but logical.

You need a large team to be able to chase down individual deactivations at partner agencies, it is not that easy. It has to be done manually from what I have heard elsewhere (not BB). With 30 000 contributors I understand that this would be expensive to do. Might also lead to what is described above, BB gets used for processing and metadata, then content gets deleted and goes elsewhere.
I didn't know you needed to get permission from most sites to leave?  I haven't heard of that before.  What if they don't give you permission, it seems clear they could just say no.  "The above licenses will continue unless and until you receive agreement to, and remove, Jointly Created Content from the Site, in which case the licenses will terminate within a commercially reasonable period of time."  It's not even clear who the permission needs to come from, the site or the keyworder, the model, the studio, all of them?   What is a "commercially reasonable" time, a day, a year, a decade?

« Reply #259 on: April 09, 2019, 11:54 »
+1
Many agencies have provisions in case you delete content. Usually to let customers who have light boxed the file have a grace period where they can still license it, even if you have left.

How long that period lasts is not always clear. Getty apparently licenses files years after people have left, but there might be real reasons for it.

Again, if you have any questions, talk to the agencies, or in this case BB.

But it is really not new. "Reasonable commercial period" will if in doubt be decided by the courts...

But you probably have that risk also in some places you are currently uploading to. After the mass deactivations we did in protest, many agencies changed the small print, making deactivations very difficult.

On Istock you can delete nothing, Getty and many macro houses also nothing. You can just close your account and then hope your content gets removed fast. But Getty has hundreds of partners and api users...it can take ages.

Just talk to people who want to go artist exclusive somewhere, how hard it is and how long it takes to have all your files removed.

If you have partner distribution enabled, it becomes even worse, even if you close your account with agency A, or just delete one file, if they have hundreds of partners, you have to keep checking yourself that it gets deleted. even if they themselves send a deactivation notice in time, nobody can tell you how long it will take for their partners to react.

Dealing with deleting content is not high on any agencies agenda.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 11:58 by cobalt »

« Reply #260 on: April 09, 2019, 11:58 »
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But it is really not new. "Reasonable commercial period" will if in doubt be decided by the courts...

On Istock you can delete nothing, Getty and many macro houses also nothing. You can just close your account and then hope your content gets removed fast. But Getty has hundreds of partners and api users...it can take ages.
I can always go to court is not reassuring. 

On iStock you can delete everything, on Black Box it's not at all clear if you can ever delete your videos even if all that was added was keywords.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:01 by tickstock »

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #261 on: April 09, 2019, 11:59 »
+1

Just talk to people who want to go artist exclusive somewhere, how hard it is and how long it takes to have all your files removed.

I think we have seen that over the years. Getty sure makes the rest look easy and more adaptable. All or nothing, no kidding.  :-\

But it is really not new. "Reasonable commercial period" will if in doubt be decided by the courts...

On Istock you can delete nothing, Getty and many macro houses also nothing. You can just close your account and then hope your content gets removed fast. But Getty has hundreds of partners and api users...it can take ages.
I can always go to court is not reassuring. 

On iStock you can delete everything.

Also right!

« Reply #262 on: April 09, 2019, 12:04 »
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Just talk to people who want to go artist exclusive somewhere, how hard it is and how long it takes to have all your files removed.

I think we have seen that over the years. Getty sure makes the rest look easy and more adaptable. All or nothing, no kidding.  :-\
I wouldn't say all the rest but it's good to understand the terms before you contribute.

« Reply #263 on: April 09, 2019, 12:08 »
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On iStock you can delete everything, on Black Box it's not at all clear if you can ever delete your videos even if all that was added was keywords.

Since when?? I was told, you can only delete your full account, not individual files. We used to be able to delete files, but they took that right away in 2013 when so many people walked out.

Did they give artists the right back, to delete a file?

I haven't been on Istock in ages, you mean artists can now have mass deletions again whenever they want to?

As for BB, it works the same way like Gettyimages. Don't like it, don't upload, very, very simple. And if you make a contract with people to share revenue it is logical you need their permission if you want to delete content. Otherwise you have to pay them upfront, like any assistant.

I really don't see the problem. Add your own keywords, if that worries you.

You can work with whoever you like. If you have an assistant already, you can ask them to sign up and then work with your own people. You don't have to work with strangers. BB doesn't have a fixed team of curators that you are forced to use, you can chose whoever you like. That is the whole point.

And a community of 40 000 will give a huge choice, in case you want to team up with a specialist for something.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:14 by cobalt »

« Reply #264 on: April 09, 2019, 12:11 »
+1
On iStock you can delete everything, on Black Box it's not at all clear if you can ever delete your videos even if all that was added was keywords.

Since when?? I was told, you can only delete your full account, not individual files. We used to be able to delete files, but they took that right away in 2013 when so many people walked out.

Did they give artists the right back, to delete a file?

I haven't been on Istock in ages, you mean artists can now have mass deletions again whenever they want to?

As for BB, it works the same way like Gettyimages. Don't like it, don't upload, very, very simple. And if you make a contract with people to share revenue it is logical you need their permission if you want to delete content. Otherwise you have to pay them upfront, like any assistant.

I really don't see the problem.
I'm not sure why you are making this about Getty?  You can close your account and take all your videos down there.  At Black Box it's not at all clear that you can ever take down your videos.   You need permission from someone but who?  If it's the site will they let you leave ever?  If it's a keyworder will they let you?  What if they die, quit the site, or just don't want to?
It's not about not liking it, it's about what do the terms even mean?  You said they were great for collaboration but don't seem to know how that even works.  You said they get better royalty rates but don't seem to know what they are. 

I'll also add that if I agree to give a % to someone I work with doesn't mean that I agree that they control where I put my work.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:20 by tickstock »

« Reply #265 on: April 09, 2019, 12:20 »
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If you don't share, you can close your account like just like anywhere else.

If you share you have a contract with partners, just like if you make the contract outside of BB. They expect to be paid, obviously. You can't cheat people out of their money whenever you like. they put their time and effort into it.

Nobody is forcing you to share anything. Pay your assistants with a salary, like always. Or do it all yourself...

On Getty you cannot delete individual files. Same on many other places. I thought you were worried about individual deactivations.

So...on Istock you still cannot delete individual files, right?

Where exactly is the problem??

« Reply #266 on: April 09, 2019, 12:21 »
+1
If you don't share, you can close your account like just like anywhere else.

If you share you have a contract with partners, just like if you make the contract outside of BB. They expect to be paid, obviously. You can't cheat people out of their money whenever you like. they put their time and effort into it.
If I ever had an agreement with someone to give them a percentage of my sales I would not let a keyworder, or model, or studio determine where I put the work.  Giving up control of your work to someone who just does keywording seems like a very bad idea.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:23 by tickstock »


« Reply #267 on: April 09, 2019, 12:30 »
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That is your personal decision.

BB is not taking anything away from you. They offer an additional option, again, why is that such a problem if you are not using that option??

I do everything myself. I also pay people, if I use their services.

But I can think of a few projects where the BB sharing model might be really useful. Especially projects that would usually be too expensive for me to even attempt.

There are people on BB who do larger projects, real films, not just simple stock clips. They have other needs and use collaboration contracts all the time already.

Other people have hard drives full of content from years of travel. They just turn it over to someone and let them sort it out. If they have to pay for that in advance, it would be really expensive, especially if they don't know if the content sells.

BB is one more option in the stock world

40 000 people seem to like it the idea and are trying it.

Nobody is forcing them.

I don't quite understand what worries you so much, sounds like the place is simply not a solution for you. Just stay away from it :)

« Reply #268 on: April 09, 2019, 12:31 »
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I was curious when you said they are great for collaboration and they get higher royalty rates.  The collaboration part looks very risky at best and I haven't seen any evidence of higher royalty rates so I'm sure it's not for me.  It looks a lot more like giving up control of your work and paying alot extra to save a couple minutes.

Besides giving up control of your work it's hard to see how paying someone nearly 20% to upload to a few sites you can do yourself would help the industry or contributors?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:33 by tickstock »

« Reply #269 on: April 09, 2019, 12:40 »
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On Getty I paid 80% to have my files distributed, on Istock my files are paying 85% for that honor...eyeem takes 50% etc...so BB really is very, very cheap...

Distributors are not new, they have been around since forever. That they negotiate other royalties and rankings than individual artists is standard.

Are you really just learning about them now??

Don't you have a Getty house contract? They distribute over hundreds of partners. They keep 80% and you have no idea what royalty or ranking they negotiated.




« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:47 by cobalt »

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #270 on: April 09, 2019, 12:46 »
+1
I was curious when you said they are great for collaboration and they get higher royalty rates.  The collaboration part looks very risky at best and I haven't seen any evidence of higher royalty rates so I'm sure it's not for me.  It looks a lot more like giving up control of your work and paying alot extra to save a couple minutes.

Besides giving up control of your work it's hard to see how paying someone nearly 20% to upload to a few sites you can do yourself would help the industry or contributors?

Interesting how this thread has taken a turn again from the original. I'm not sure that BB is a virtual agency anyway but assuming it's as close as we get, and allows partners, or group publishing, interesting.

No I'm not going to pay anyone 15% to distribute for me, and I don't want to grant a further percentage to new shares, based on their data work. At least you questions have brought out some interesting answers about the program and how it works.

Now... anyone doing this for stills? Are they? I can't find the site.

When I search, I'm reminded how I wish BB had picked a different name.  ;)

« Reply #271 on: April 09, 2019, 12:47 »
0
On Getty I paid 80% to have my files distributed, on Istock my files are paying 85% for that honor...so BB really is very, very cheap...

Distributors are not new, they have been around since forever...

Are you really just learning about them now??
You realize you don't need to pay them an extra 20% to upload to Shutterstock, Adobe, and Pond5 right?  You can do that all on your own.  Instead of uploading to one site you can upload to five and keep 20% more money.  I can't see how that makes sense if you expect your videos to get a couple sales in the next decade and if you don't why bother shooting, editing, and uploading in the first place?

« Reply #272 on: April 09, 2019, 12:51 »
0
I was curious when you said they are great for collaboration and they get higher royalty rates.  The collaboration part looks very risky at best and I haven't seen any evidence of higher royalty rates so I'm sure it's not for me.  It looks a lot more like giving up control of your work and paying alot extra to save a couple minutes.

Besides giving up control of your work it's hard to see how paying someone nearly 20% to upload to a few sites you can do yourself would help the industry or contributors?

Interesting how this thread has taken a turn again from the original. I'm not sure that BB is a virtual agency anyway but assuming it's as close as we get, and allows partners, or group publishing, interesting.

No I'm not going to pay anyone 15% to distribute for me, and I don't want to grant a further percentage to new shares, based on their data work. At least you questions have brought out some interesting answers about the program and how it works.

Now... anyone doing this for stills? Are they? I can't find the site.

When I search, I'm reminded how I wish BB had picked a different name.  ;)
If you want I'll keyword your shots and upload them to five sites and keep 30% and decide if you can take them down in the future.   "Dream big, work hard, make professional grade content, and the trust the Power of BlackBox tickstock."

ETA:  They need to edit their marketing too, there is an extra "the" in the sentence.

« Reply #273 on: April 09, 2019, 12:57 »
0
-  You realize you don't need to pay them an extra 20% to upload to Shutterstock, Adobe, and Pond5 right?  You can do that all on your own.  Instead of uploading to one site you can upload to five and keep 20% more money.  I can't see how that makes sense if you expect your videos to get a couple sales in the next decade and if you don't why bother shooting, editing, and uploading in the first place?



My time is valuable.

Uploading and distributing videos is a lot of work. If I didn't believe this would make me money, do you seriously think I would be doing it??

I am still uploading to all the places, except Vimeo. Does Vimeo take individual artists?

But I am trying to optimize my uploads, some stuff goes into my personal ports, the others go into the Blackbox. I think they are very aptly named.

It works really well for me.

I can understand that it looks strange, but like I said, please avoid them if you don't see any value in it. It is just an option.

I also signed up for an additional exclusive port on pond5...still need to come up with a good concept for that as well.

More options are good, at least for me.

But if people think 15% is too expensive...what are they expecting a stock union site is supposed to cost?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:59 by cobalt »

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #274 on: April 09, 2019, 12:57 »
+2
I was curious when you said they are great for collaboration and they get higher royalty rates.  The collaboration part looks very risky at best and I haven't seen any evidence of higher royalty rates so I'm sure it's not for me.  It looks a lot more like giving up control of your work and paying alot extra to save a couple minutes.

Besides giving up control of your work it's hard to see how paying someone nearly 20% to upload to a few sites you can do yourself would help the industry or contributors?

Interesting how this thread has taken a turn again from the original. I'm not sure that BB is a virtual agency anyway but assuming it's as close as we get, and allows partners, or group publishing, interesting.

No I'm not going to pay anyone 15% to distribute for me, and I don't want to grant a further percentage to new shares, based on their data work. At least you questions have brought out some interesting answers about the program and how it works.

Now... anyone doing this for stills? Are they? I can't find the site.

When I search, I'm reminded how I wish BB had picked a different name.  ;)
If you want I'll keyword your shots and upload them to five sites and keep 30% and decide if you can take them down in the future.   "Dream big, work hard, make professional grade content, and the trust the Power of BlackBox tickstock."

ETA:  They need to edit their marketing too, there is an extra "the" in the sentence.

Unless the word is then? I don't know, I'm going to try to avoid anything more on this topic until the next round, when it changes costumes again.  ;D

If someone can come up with a union, co-op, association or anything else, by any other name, that can stand up for the artists, maybe make for better treatment and of course, most of all, better percentages. They have my full support and best wishes. I'd love to see someone make that work.


 

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