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Author Topic: use two words in one keyword ?  (Read 2797 times)

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« on: February 24, 2022, 07:22 »
0
Hello everyone 
Would it be a problem to use two words or more in one keyword ?
As an example  " united states "  "Made in France" , ?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 07:26 by Souf10 »


« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2022, 12:55 »
+2
Dreamstime usually breaks them up, but SS and others accept them, sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. One minor site decided at some point that per your example if you had "united" and "states" and "united states" those were duplicate keywords and rejected it.  How the search deals with those varies from site to site. I used to try to pay attention to that but I don't much anymore. Certainly for something like "christmas tree" I think a 2 word keyword makes sense.

« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2022, 13:16 »
+1
Dreamstime usually breaks them up, but SS and others accept them, sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. One minor site decided at some point that per your example if you had "united" and "states" and "united states" those were duplicate keywords and rejected it.  How the search deals with those varies from site to site. I used to try to pay attention to that but I don't much anymore. Certainly for something like "christmas tree" I think a 2 word keyword makes sense.

or for otherwise 'spamming' if separate- 'red river', 'monkey flower', 'french fries'...

« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2022, 13:57 »
+2
There is no single correct answer to your question.
As already mentioned as an example, it certainly makes sense to take "red lake" together.

But if we take Las Vegas, for example, the terms should be separated.
From my Alamy statistics, for example, I know that many buyers search only for "Vegas Strip" or "Vegas Hotel". If then took "Las Vegas" together, you're out of the search.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2022, 05:12 »
+2
There is no single correct answer to your question.
As already mentioned as an example, it certainly makes sense to take "red lake" together.

But if we take Las Vegas, for example, the terms should be separated.
From my Alamy statistics, for example, I know that many buyers search only for "Vegas Strip" or "Vegas Hotel". If then took "Las Vegas" together, you're out of the search.
No, that's not how search works on Alamy.
Any word in the caption or keywords can be combined with any other to make a false search hit. It's one of Alamy's most annoying features - just look through your own searches.
So for example, say you have a photo of two people, correctly tagged "Joe Bloggs" and "Jane Doe"
These will turn up in searches for "Joe Doe", "Jane Bloggs", "Joe Jane" and "Jane Joe".

Depending on the particular algorithm at the time, these 'wrong' results may or may not rank higher than the phrases. So, for example, in some phases of the algorithm, if you search for "Jane Bloggs", you might get a lot of photos of Joe Bloggs and Jane Doe high up in the mixture above genuine photos of Jane Bloggs, which could be due to photographer sales ranking higher in that particular algorithm iteration.  In the real world, I check-search on "Leonard Cohen". At this particular moment, having just checked, the first page of that search is impressively 'clean', but in previous times, fewer than half of the first page results, sorted by 'Relevant' have been of the man himself.

For example, a few days back, I see via Customer Search, I had three 'hits' on a search for Will Young, a UK singer of whom I have no photos.
Two of them were live news photos for which the caption reads:
"Glasgow, Scotland, UK. Young people skating in George Square in central Glasgow where an ice-rink was opened on 24th November 2012 and will continue until 6th January 2012. ..."
The other was also LN, with the caption:
"Glasgow, Scotland, UK. 02nd August, 2018. Two young boys having their photos taken wearing 'Big Hands' at the Sir Chris Hoy Velodrome (Emirates Arena) in the Dalmarnock area of Glasgow before the first cycling events of the Glasgow 2018, a multi-sport event. Most of the sports will be hosted in Scotland, with the Velodrome hosting the Track Cycling events. "

Customer search shows that all of my three irrelevant pics were in the 'top' 800 searches, i.e. I can see that the customer looked through 800 pics. Searching Will Young on Alamy shows 68,667 hits. The first page is very relevant to the singer, but my totally irrelevant hits based on the caption indicate that it deteriorates pretty quickly.

So, as long as you had "Las Vegas" and "hotels" you'd still show up in a search for "Vegas Hotels", how high or low depending on the particular algorithm at the time and possibly your own personal ranking. You could also hedge your bets by tagging "Las Vegas" "hotels", and "Vegas Hotels".

« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2022, 07:36 »
0
Sue, I am not a fan of long texts and I must have misunderstood.
As far as I know, Alamy is the only agency where you can see for which search terms images are seen. Thats the only reason, I mentioned Alamy. I find the function very instructive, because you can see how the buyers tick in the search. The choice of search terms by buyers does not always correspond to my logic as a contributor.
 
Back to the two words in one keyword question. As an example, if I list "Las Vegas" as a double word only in the keywords, my image will not show up when someone searches for "Vegas" only. With this knowledge it makes sense to list the terms individually in the keywords. Or do I have a knot in my head somewhere?  ;)

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2022, 09:04 »
0
Sue, I am not a fan of long texts and I must have misunderstood.
As far as I know, Alamy is the only agency where you can see for which search terms images are seen. Thats the only reason, I mentioned Alamy. I find the function very instructive, because you can see how the buyers tick in the search. The choice of search terms by buyers does not always correspond to my logic as a contributor.
 
Back to the two words in one keyword question. As an example, if I list "Las Vegas" as a double word only in the keywords, my image will not show up when someone searches for "Vegas" only. With this knowledge it makes sense to list the terms individually in the keywords. Or do I have a knot in my head somewhere?  ;)

I had to write a long post to give examples to show that your sweeping generalisation isn't accurate re Alamy.

I don't know why you think it wouldn't show up*.
I occasionally have searches for Margaret or William (etc) (yes I know, weird search unless they were writing a book about famous Margarets) where I do not have Margaret or William as single keywords, only as Margaret Surname or William Surname.

Of course it may be, as in the examples I have given, that Alamy's search picked up Margaret or William from the caption. Because as I showed in my example of Will Young, the search can be based totally on the caption, not from keywords at all.

In these cases, you'd presumably normally have Las Vegas in the caption, so your file would still be found on a search. Because in the case that Las Vegas and hotel weren't sufficiently significant in the file for you to write in the caption, it's not likely that it would be what a buyer was looking for on a search for "Vegas Hotel"

*if the search was working as they claim it works, your file keyworded "Las Vegas" and "hotel" would still show up under those returned for "Vegas Hotel", even if Las Vegas and hotel weren't in the caption.

But as I said, with a belt and braces approach, you could correctly tag "Las Vegas", "Hotel" and "Vegas Hotel".

« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2022, 09:51 »
0
Sue, I am not a fan of long texts and I must have misunderstood.
As far as I know, Alamy is the only agency where you can see for which search terms images are seen. Thats the only reason, I mentioned Alamy. I find the function very instructive, because you can see how the buyers tick in the search. The choice of search terms by buyers does not always correspond to my logic as a contributor.
 
Back to the two words in one keyword question. As an example, if I list "Las Vegas" as a double word only in the keywords, my image will not show up when someone searches for "Vegas" only. With this knowledge it makes sense to list the terms individually in the keywords. Or do I have a knot in my head somewhere?  ;)

I had to write a long post to give examples to show that your sweeping generalisation isn't accurate re Alamy.

I don't know why you think it wouldn't show up*.
I occasionally have searches for Margaret or William (etc) (yes I know, weird search unless they were writing a book about famous Margarets) where I do not have Margaret or William as single keywords, only as Margaret Surname or William Surname.

Of course it may be, as in the examples I have given, that Alamy's search picked up Margaret or William from the caption. Because as I showed in my example of Will Young, the search can be based totally on the caption, not from keywords at all.

In these cases, you'd presumably normally have Las Vegas in the caption, so your file would still be found on a search. Because in the case that Las Vegas and hotel weren't sufficiently significant in the file for you to write in the caption, it's not likely that it would be what a buyer was looking for on a search for "Vegas Hotel"

*if the search was working as they claim it works, your file keyworded "Las Vegas" and "hotel" would still show up under those returned for "Vegas Hotel", even if Las Vegas and hotel weren't in the caption.

But as I said, with a belt and braces approach, you could correctly tag "Las Vegas", "Hotel" and "Vegas Hotel".

Sue, the long text was not related to your post, but to my own laziness in writing  ;)

I also thought I had contributed something intelligent to the topic. 
I have now tested the whole thing with a few of my pictures in your sense and you're right - it does not matter. Thank you, I have learned something again.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2022, 10:06 »
0
I have now tested the whole thing with a few of my pictures in your sense and you're right - it does not matter. Thank you, I have learned something again.
It's not your fault, Ralf.
The system doesn't work in the way that Alamy says it works, and it hasn't since I joined c2009.

However, different algorithms can thow up vastly different results, and at least at the moment, the first page results look good. (but I just searched my usual Leonard Cohen and because of my recent mis-hit, Will Young.)

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2022, 11:45 »
+1

As far as I know, Alamy is the only agency where you can see for which search terms images are seen. Thats the only reason, I mentioned Alamy. I find the function very instructive, because you can see how the buyers tick in the search. The choice of search terms by buyers does not always correspond to my logic as a contributor.
 
Back to the two words in one keyword question. As an example, if I list "Las Vegas" as a double word only in the keywords, my image will not show up when someone searches for "Vegas" only. With this knowledge it makes sense to list the terms individually in the keywords. Or do I have a knot in my head somewhere?  ;)





Downloads per Keyword: danica (27.3%), patrick (22.7%), car (18.2%)
(then it says show more)   

    danica
    27.3%
    patrick
    22.7%
    car
    18.2%
    indy
    18.2%
    daddy
    4.5%
    go
    4.5%
    godaddy
    4.5%

SS
163,067 las vegas stock photos
371,732 vegas stock photos

Getty
11,110 Las Vegas Premium High Res Photos
11,110 Vegas Premium High Res Photos

Alamy
Las+vegas
 Stock Photos and Images (707,743)
Vegas
 Stock Photos and Images (776,238)

Adobe
79,485 results for las vegas
206,329 results for vegas in all

Just a quick survey, I don't think anyone should assume anything, and two words that are specific, can't hurt. Also not that Alamy does produce different results, not all for one.

iStock has controlled vocabulary and still someone gets this? Because everything is the same with CV.
Las Vegas = 57,444 Images
Vegas = 57,444 Images

« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2022, 18:26 »
0
or just list 'vegas' AND 'las vegas' (as some sites dont search the title or description) - a very venial sin compared to massive spamming

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2022, 09:46 »
+1
or just list 'vegas' AND 'las vegas' (as some sites dont search the title or description) - a very venial sin compared to massive spamming

Yes and simply put, we are trying to get our work seen, for what it really is, so just what you said, because every site can potentially be different. It's not spam if it's really in there.  :)

« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2022, 12:19 »
+1
Then there are images that make no sense in the search if you separate the compound keywords. Like Golden Gate Bridge. You could separate and have bridge as a separate keyword but golden and gate by themselves wouldn't apply at all. FWIW.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2022, 13:18 »
0
Then there are images that make no sense in the search if you separate the compound keywords. Like Golden Gate Bridge. You could separate and have bridge as a separate keyword but golden and gate by themselves wouldn't apply at all. FWIW.
That's totally correct.

At least one of the micros, can't remember which (Adobe? not sure), actually splits the phrases. At least, on a file page I can see keywords alphabetised so that Bridge, Gate and Golden would appear like that, maybe with intervening keywords, when it's the Golden Gate Bridge.
(Unless by weird coincidence, the authors of the random files I clicked on all separated their 'phrase keywords'.)
I have no idea if some IT magic imn the background somehow holds the original 'phrase tag' together for searches.

« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2022, 19:39 »
0
SS separates them but for Adobe, my compound keywords don't get separated as far as I have noticed.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2022, 20:10 »
0
SS separates them but for Adobe, my compound keywords don't get separated as far as I have noticed.

Ok, thanks for the info.  I've just looked and it seems that a lot of Alamy contributors must split their own keywords.  ::) Though 'no people' always seems to be 'stuck together'!

It also seems that files on SS can have 'phrase keywords'.

Hmmmm.

« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2022, 22:05 »
0
SS separates them but for Adobe, my compound keywords don't get separated as far as I have noticed.

Ok, thanks for the info.  I've just looked and it seems that a lot of Alamy contributors must split their own keywords.  ::) Though 'no people' always seems to be 'stuck together'!

It also seems that files on SS can have 'phrase keywords'.

Hmmmm.

How would you have them do the keywords to make this right?


« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2022, 22:53 »
0
SS separates them but for Adobe, my compound keywords don't get separated as far as I have noticed.

Ok, thanks for the info.  I've just looked and it seems that a lot of Alamy contributors must split their own keywords.  ::) Though 'no people' always seems to be 'stuck together'!

It also seems that files on SS can have 'phrase keywords'.

Hmmmm.

Dreamstime splits up the keywords to single words and puts them in alphabetical order. I think there is a way to make compound keywords - maybe in quotes, but I haven't bothered much.

As to how it should be done - compound keywords should stick together, you should for example keyword the Golden Gate Bridge "golden gate bridge, bridge" so it shows up in a search for the actual named bridge plus any old bridge.

« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2022, 03:38 »
0
I experimented with long tail keywords some time back, but couldn't really notice any difference in sales. So I - generally - don't use them, except for keywords that really belong together and don't make sense in having them separated. No people or blue sky for instance.

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2022, 10:36 »
0
I experimented with long tail keywords some time back, but couldn't really notice any difference in sales. So I - generally - don't use them, except for keywords that really belong together and don't make sense in having them separated. No people or blue sky for instance.

Also smart thinking. I did some of that as well, but I don't track close enough and really don't know. But like everything else, it can't hurt!

Yes for all the complaints about how the searches work, and the variety, words are words, and if the buyers aren't smart, they can create poor results. Same with the agencies. Is it just words or should phrases matter? If someone uses a phrase, should that ignore single words? And searching titles or descriptions creates a whole new set of problems, because they are just words or are they phrases?

Right DT sorts alpha, SS kind of does that, but I've seen words move if they were used for a download. IS we can't alter words, they used to move by relevance, I don't know what now? AS top ten have stronger weight.

Alamy, we have the SuperTags, which I make use of, because it's a tool for our benefit. Words are in the order uploaded, I don't know if word order matters. I did all kinds of tests to see if I could force an image I thought was best, to the front of my own images of that specific search. Remember the crazy boxes? Yes we could, but only by putting the word in every box and the title and the description. That's history.

That's about the extent of my looking and watching and caring. We can't control most of that, and because all of us are playing by the same rules, for the search, what's the difference. We're all treated equally, whether the search or keywords or phrases or whatever is "right" in our opinion, or "wrong".

It is the way it is. Live with it? We don't have the power to change what the agencies have designed because they think that's what's best.

Yes use, two words, single words, use related phrases, long tail search terms, and let the Gods of the search roll their dice.  ;D Yes to all, including intentional spelling errors or anything else.



nazlisart

  • I create therefore I AM
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2022, 09:21 »
0
After a long time in this industry, I have concluded that individual
words works much better than any kind of phrases.

This realization was made more by instinct and less by data - and let's
admit it, NOBODY really knows how the different search engines
work and, even if he did, NOBODY can optimize their keywording process
to satisfy them all.

Personally, I rarely have phrases and my process follows the AS guidelines.
I have the 3-5 most important keywords on top and I try to also include them
in the Title and the Description.

Also, I'd like to add that something similar is going on with illustrations
(I can't see how this applies to photography). Sales are much better when
you upload a theme that has several variations as individual items instead
of packing all the variations in one, even if there are very small differences*
(like different colors or a simple rearrangement). 

*Exception to that is Envato's Graphic River.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 12:11 by nazlisart »

zeljkok

  • Non Linear Existence
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2022, 22:36 »
0
Great post nazlisart & agreed with everything you said

One thing about Alamy:  They index the heaviest image title,  then 10 super tags, then the rest.  So picking for super tags words that are already in the title is redundant.  Most Alamy uploads can be fully described with title + 15-20 tags only, so inventing 40 tags just to satisfy discoverability criteria is not really necessary.

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2022, 09:21 »
0
Great post nazlisart & agreed with everything you said

One thing about Alamy:  They index the heaviest image title,  then 10 super tags, then the rest.  So picking for super tags words that are already in the title is redundant.  Most Alamy uploads can be fully described with title + 15-20 tags only, so inventing 40 tags just to satisfy discoverability criteria is not really necessary.

Really, is that the new system? Title is the heaviest weighting. I'll need to pay better attention. I remember all the boxes and what was what and how they valued them, but that's all changed now. Is there someplace where Alamy explains and discloses the data weighting like they used to have?

zeljkok

  • Non Linear Existence
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2022, 15:37 »
0
Pete - this is conclusion I made based on Alamy Measures when photo gets returned in search for search term I had in title, but not in keywords.  Since keywords are obviously 2 level (10 super then rest) it is logical to assume title might have the heaviest weight for search engine.  It also fits overall Alamy model where phrases are not supported, in other words title string is parsed and indexed as array of individual words 

It is interesting to note how different agencies treat indexing;   IS does not index title/description at all, neither does AS.  DT on the other level puts by far the heaviest weight on Title, then Description.  I believe SS indexes title and supports phrases, but does not have "super" tags like AS (first 10) and Alamy.  IS on the other hand has this "managed dictionary" which is IMHO as wrong as it gets.  But IS will index tag that is not recognized, at least this is what their support told me once. So for instance if "landscape" is not recognized and they want you to pick "landscape - scenery" instead - don't bother.  Just "landscape" will get indexed fine.

« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2022, 17:11 »
0
I saw searches by Alamy users for 'central park' where my photos showed up but that was for New York, mine was for central park in Boston UK so I had to change it to 'park' only.   

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2022, 09:06 »
0
Pete - this is conclusion I made based on Alamy Measures when photo gets returned in search for search term I had in title, but not in keywords.  Since keywords are obviously 2 level (10 super then rest) it is logical to assume title might have the heaviest weight for search engine.  It also fits overall Alamy model where phrases are not supported, in other words title string is parsed and indexed as array of individual words 

It is interesting to note how different agencies treat indexing;   IS does not index title/description at all, neither does AS.  DT on the other level puts by far the heaviest weight on Title, then Description.  I believe SS indexes title and supports phrases, but does not have "super" tags like AS (first 10) and Alamy.  IS on the other hand has this "managed dictionary" which is IMHO as wrong as it gets.  But IS will index tag that is not recognized, at least this is what their support told me once. So for instance if "landscape" is not recognized and they want you to pick "landscape - scenery" instead - don't bother.  Just "landscape" will get indexed fine.

Yes, many places don't use Title (the field) at all, just Description. For Adobe, they read Title and don't use Description, unless Title is Blank. SS reads Description (and calls it title) but ignores Title. I don't know if anyplace even looks at file name anymore? Kind of senseless since it could be ccws06-985 or nothing of use.

I don't know what IS sees or uses or if they know? The whole CV thing leaves blanks for words that aren't in their Vocabulary. I'd have to do a modern test and add a word, then see it it comes up in the search. Just like you, the best information is from personal testing.

So now I need to see what's up at Alamy this year. They changed things. I had to go through and alter over 2000 images, when they decided to stop searching Description, because people were writing a short story in there and all kinds of bad search results. Instead of saying, hey artists, stop spamming the field, they just stopped using it. Well thank you, now I'm screwed because I had names and places in the descriptions.

Next when they still had that terrible three box system, I'd put the major words in the first, like were were supposed to do. Then more general in the second and the third box, which was not displayed, was still searched. I used that for Names and locations, teams and specifics, which made the results less likely to have false hits. (If all that rank bs clicks, views, zooms was real?)

What happened? They changed and made the third box visible and made the second box invisible. No reason why? I wanted those box three details so be hidden?

Right, now the new system, no more boxes, Supertags and the bogus discoverability. Wonderful they just merged all the boxes = so now many of my images have spammed up keywords. Gee thanks again Alamy, now I can go through thousands of images, yet another time to make them right?

Maybe during the week, I'll take some files and play the tag/caption game?  ;)

https://www.alamy.com/blog/captions-and-tags

Official position:

What are supertags? These are the tags that you feel are the most relevant to the image. In Alamy Image Manager, you can add up to 10 supertags and the search engine will place extra priority to these. Make sure you select the most relevant words only and use them wisely.

Ive tagged my image Banff National Park, will my image show if someone searches Park? Our tagging system does not exclude constituent words of a tag from being searched. For example, Banff National Park will still show up for banff, national park and park searches. This also means that Rhinoceros Beetle will show up in Rhinoceros searches, but the search engine tries to make sure that the beetle image does not appear too high up.

What about plurals and stemming? The Alamy search engine doesnt stem search words. This means that if a customer searches for Cat, the search engine does not extend this to Cats. If the plural is important to the image, then you should add it as an additional tag. Consider this carefully though you could potentially be giving the customer irrelevant results which can harm your ranking in the future. If you have a lifestyle shot of a child playing on a swing, Child is a perfectly acceptable tag, but Children is not a customer searching for Children will likely want to see just that: more than one child.


I saw searches by Alamy users for 'central park' where my photos showed up but that was for New York, mine was for central park in Boston UK so I had to change it to 'park' only.   

That's right. But they also don't stem, while others do.

So if @zeljkok  is correct, I'll need to pay much closer attention to the Description field on Alamy. (which they call Captions) And it's limited to 150 characters, on Alamy, by the way.

Oh Edit: DT uses all the fields. Title, Description and the Tags
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 09:18 by Uncle Pete »

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2022, 09:18 »
0
Here just to make it clear, these are the actual names of the fields according to the set standards.



It's Caption, no it's description?  :) OK officially it's Description AKA Caption



zeljkok

  • Non Linear Existence
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2022, 14:39 »
0
Pete - bottom line is every agency is free to use whatever model they want.  Personally I find the simpler the better.  This is why ultra convoluted and unnecessary IS managed dictionary is the worst IMHO.  AS in other hand took minimalist approach, which is in line with overall UI philosophy of their products. Too minimalist perhaps

Forums like this are good though for us to exchange information and learn things. I am happy to share whatever I found playing with my port, regardless of fact that it might help direct 'competition'

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2022, 15:08 »
0
Pete - bottom line is every agency is free to use whatever model they want.  Personally I find the simpler the better.  This is why ultra convoluted and unnecessary IS managed dictionary is the worst IMHO.  AS in other hand took minimalist approach, which is in line with overall UI philosophy of their products. Too minimalist perhaps

Forums like this are good though for us to exchange information and learn things. I am happy to share whatever I found playing with my port, regardless of fact that it might help direct 'competition'

So true, they can do what they want, I was just pointing out the real names for the IPTC standards of the industry. In some ways, CV is a good idea, in others it's too restrictive for accurate descriptions.

I just edited a set of four images on Alamy, maybe by tomorrow the system will update and I can see if the "secret word" makes them appear in an order I could control. If Caption is first on Alamy that is very useful to know. One has the two words in the caption, another in the Super tag words, as a compound word and as singles, another has the single two words only Supertag and the last has the two words as standard words.

Then I also added a code word that shows no results, so I can see when the database has been updated.


 

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