Author Topic: very low sales - opinions of experienced photographers (Read 28556 times)

RacePhoto · « **Reply #50 on:** January 22, 2009, 15:44 »

Quote from: sjlocke on January 21, 2009, 20:22

Quote from: RT on January 21, 2009, 18:47
are these the same people that have just shared their money making tips with others?

What are you saying? ! ?

Just like cooking. You can give all your friends your recipes, but make sure you leave out at least one key "secret" ingredient, or how you process the food.

I'm more of the opinion (note that!) that telling people what sells, or how to shoot, doesn't do much. Most don't follow up, many don't listen, some don't have the experience to use what they are told, and most of the time, lighting is key to making a great photo. It's expensive to control the light and have the equipment necessary to manipulate lighting on a professional level. 1) Lighting is more important than the camera in many cases.

2) Editing what you have is a whole different venture. Not that I can turn a silk purse into a sows ear (or is it supposed to be the other way around?

) But learning how to use the photo editing software correctly, is often just as important for making a good photo as the source equipment that took the picture.

3) An eye for composition. This you can't give away, sell or tip off as a secret, because it's either learned through exposure to art, or in some very rare cases, have some natural ability to see things in a wonderful and creative way, in their minds eye, before they shoot the picture.

What I'm heading for is this. All the tips on the Microstock forums, if every one was true and accurate, applied with the best camera equipment. Won't make as much difference as learning essentials of how a photo is created (mechanics and physics), lighting, understanding editing and experience to be able to shoot a well composed photo.

There are no secret tricks for making photos or sales, just hard work and education. (except those very very few who appear to be "naturals", and that can't be posted on a forum)

On the original topic. More photos, more choices, dilution of the market in a way the allows the buyers more choices and means less individual sales per photographer. The agencies could be selling at record highs, but we would still see a general lower sales volume. Buyers market.

And what FlemishDreams said about people doing research and reproducing best selling images. Still not something you just find on a forum.

avava · « **Reply #51 on:** January 22, 2009, 15:50 »

Well said RacePhoto,

I couldn't have put it better myself. And two cooks can do the same dish but oh my, not even close.

Best,
AVAVA

null · « **Reply #52 on:** January 22, 2009, 16:56 »

Quote from: lisafx on January 22, 2009, 15:41

Although of course I didn't take it, here's the Worst Toilet in Scotland (from one of my favorite movies of all time):

Trainspotting?

tan510jomast · « **Reply #53 on:** January 22, 2009, 17:07 »

to help or not to help, that is a question... and i can see both side now ...

I suppose you can blame the newbies you helped for stealing your income,
or stop making copiable images . But if we look at the most obvious, ie. how many Yuri clones do you see? You don't see Yuri screaming plagiarism.

It's too soon to know, but what goes around comes around, like zeus and epantha and lisa hinted. I, being an optimist , go with them .There's enough to share

Tuilay · « **Reply #54 on:** January 22, 2009, 17:15 »

You will always find nurturers and protectionists in any art-form. I would say that those with the most confidence in their ability will be more willing to share their ideas , and those who doubt their uniqueness will keep all to themselves. Thank goodness we have enough who are willing to share. But, don't change, you can be the toad under a toadstool, or an oyster keeping all to yourself. The world needs you too

PeterChigmaroff · « **Reply #55 on:** January 22, 2009, 17:16 »

Some years ago I asked my editor why they stopped putting out wants lists. List of images that were not in the library and that the agency felt would sell well. His reply was simple enough, "no one ever produces anything from it except the time we asked for a pretty model doing a breast self examination"; which apparently they were deluged with.

Peter

tan510jomast · « **Reply #56 on:** January 22, 2009, 17:19 »

Quote from: Zeus on January 22, 2009, 17:16

Some years ago I asked my editor why they stopped putting out wants lists. List of images that were not in the library and that the agency felt would sell well. His reply was simple enough, "no one ever produces anything from it except the time we asked for a pretty model doing a breast self examination"; which apparently they were deluged with.

Peter

Awww shoot Zeus , I was just about to submit one of those , lol

RT · « **Reply #57 on:** January 22, 2009, 17:34 »

Quote from: RacePhoto on January 22, 2009, 15:44

Just like cooking. You can give all your friends your recipes, but make sure you leave out at least one key "secret" ingredient, or how you process the food.

I agree but a lot of people can't help themselves, I guess it's an ego thing wanting others to think they're the best or something. By the way can I have your recipe for lemon ice cream.

Quote from: RacePhoto on January 22, 2009, 15:44

I'm more of the opinion (note that!) that telling people what sells, or how to shoot, doesn't do much. Most don't follow up, many don't listen, some don't have the experience to use what they are told, and most of the time, lighting is key to making a great photo. It's expensive to control the light and have the equipment necessary to manipulate lighting on a professional level. 1) Lighting is more important than the camera in many cases.

Totally agree

Quote from: RacePhoto on January 22, 2009, 15:44

2) Editing what you have is a whole different venture. Not that I can turn a silk purse into a sows ear (or is it supposed to be the other way around? ) But learning how to use the photo editing software correctly, is often just as important for making a good photo as the source equipment that took the picture.

3) An eye for composition. This you can't give away, sell or tip off as a secret, because it's either learned through exposure to art, or in some very rare cases, have some natural ability to see things in a wonderful and creative way, in their minds eye, before they shoot the picture.

I agree with both these points to an extent, but a lot of stock on microstock sites "ain't no art" and a blind monkey could do it if they were shown the way, I'm just saying don't take bubbles by the hand and lead him down the path.

I'm not saying don't share information and Pete you of all people know I quite often share info albeit not generally in a public forum, but my point is, this thing we call the micrstock community is fast turning into a marketplace for the lazy f*****rs who aren't interested in learning the 'art' but just want the quick way to screw those of us that do, and I see far too many people who are willing to help them do it.

And on that note watch out for threads like this and many others:

http://submit.shutterstock.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54659

It will be interesting to see how many responses it gets, am I right in thinking the OP's hidden message is clear?

Now it appears I've taken the Mr Nasty mantle away from Sean, sorry Sean.

Pixart · « **Reply #58 on:** January 22, 2009, 17:54 »

Quote from: lisafx on January 22, 2009, 15:41

Although of course I didn't take it, here's the Worst Toilet in Scotland (from one of my favorite movies of all time):

One of my all-time faves too. I took it to a friend's recently and they were both utterly revolted and wouldn't watch it past the first 15 minutes. Me-artist. Them-normal.

maigi · « **Reply #59 on:** January 22, 2009, 17:57 »

Quote from: Peter on January 22, 2009, 03:41

If you help a newbie, you loose money. Simple as that.

You don't see the bigger picture, don't you?

Perrush · « **Reply #60 on:** January 22, 2009, 18:11 »

Quote

and how you consider your future on stock ?

I stopped with micro's in 2007 after doing it for one year. Why ? because I was shooting for stock instead of shooting out of love for photography. I became bored with the 'objects on white' and sold all my gear ...

... now I bought back all my stuff and made myself one promise. Only shoot images you want to shoot because you like them and not because they would sell. Now I'm much more orientated towards art. I shoot mainly images of my kids and do projects I wanted to do. I'm much more proud of the images I make now then those I made in my last micro year. But yes, they will probably sell less.

Does this make me sad ?? (I mean that they sell less)

Well actually not really. Why did the majority of us entered the micromarket ? Because the images they shot could make them some money to buy some extra gear.

Some (most ?) are now shooting for stock because it makes them some money. But does it bring them pride too ? Are they happy with their images ? Does shooting make their lives more pleasant ? I don't know , but I doubt it.

So I went back to the original idea. Sell what you shoot and if it sell, be happy and buy some gear. In my case, I always wanted to do high speed photography. Well I will use micro money to buy me a dozen flashes and see what I can produce. Will it sell ? maybe some. Will I use my time in the most productive way ? certainly not ! Will I be proud of my images ? probably well

I hope you see the point. Just shoot and be happy. Once you start shooting for money it takes away the magic of photography.

RT · « **Reply #61 on:** January 22, 2009, 18:20 »

Quote from: lisafx on January 22, 2009, 15:41

Although of course I didn't take it, here's the Worst Toilet in Scotland (from one of my favorite movies of all time):

You've never been to Scotland have you!

maigi · « **Reply #62 on:** January 22, 2009, 18:24 »

Quote from: Perrush on January 22, 2009, 18:11

Just shoot and be happy. Once you start shooting for money it takes away the magic of photography.

So true!!
But here you are talking from hobbyist point of view. Some make living from microstock and when it comes to living, sometimes you need to do things you don't like, but have to, when you think about your family.
I see future stock industry with several high professionals and lots of hobbyist who are doing it for fun. And all current middle shooters/illustrators (who almost make a living from stock) get tired and bored and quit.

XeniaII · « **Reply #63 on:** January 22, 2009, 18:29 »

here in germany we have a good forum where newbies aks.. and i help why not... if they sell pics its ok for me...

I dont affraid of any user fotographs.. they mad other pics...

gostwyck · « **Reply #64 on:** January 22, 2009, 18:38 »

Quote from: Perrush on January 22, 2009, 18:11

I hope you see the point. Just shoot and be happy. Once you start shooting for money it takes away the magic of photography.

No, I can't agree.

When I was shooting for a hobby I almost entirely concentrated on landscapes and sports. The problem with that was you were so utterly dependent on things outside of your control, like the weather.

One of the beauties of stock is that it has opened my eyes to a whole range of subjects and styles of shooting that I'd never even considered before and, as a result, some the images I'm now proudest of I would never even have thought of photographing before. Because of the range of subjects and the sheer quanity of photography and all the learning involved in understanding stock I'm 10x better at photography now than I ever was before.

Nowadays I can get just as much pleasure and satisfaction out of shooting a plate of food or an industrial concept as I've ever got out of landscapes. Yes, shooting for money is supposedly still 'a job' ... but it doesn't feel like one.

I can start when I want, stop when I want and I also get to choose what and where I want to do it. I can pretty much buy all the equipment I want, travel where I want to go and then subtract all those expenses from my tax return. Does it beat climbing into a suit and driving to the same industrial estate every day? You bet it does __ I've never been happier.

thesentinel · « **Reply #65 on:** January 22, 2009, 18:51 »

Quote from: gostwyck on January 22, 2009, 18:38

Quote from: Perrush on January 22, 2009, 18:11
I hope you see the point. Just shoot and be happy. Once you start shooting for money it takes away the magic of photography.

No, I can't agree.

When I was shooting for a hobby I almost entirely concentrated on landscapes and sports. The problem with that was you were so utterly dependent on things outside of your control, like the weather.

One of the beauties of stock is that it has opened my eyes to a whole range of subjects and styles of shooting that I'd never even considered before and, as a result, some the images I'm now proudest of I would never even have thought of photographing before. Because of the range of subjects and the sheer quanity of photography and all the learning involved in understanding stock I'm 10x better at photography now than I ever was before.

Nowadays I can get just as much pleasure and satisfaction out of shooting a plate of food or an industrial concept as I've ever got out of landscapes. Yes, shooting for money is supposedly still 'a job' ... but it doesn't feel like one.

I can start when I want, stop when I want and I also get to choose what and where I want to do it. I can pretty much buy all the equipment I want, travel where I want to go and then subtract all those expenses from my tax return. Does it beat climbing into a suit and driving to the same industrial estate every day? You bet it does __ I've never been happier.

Indeed, if you get paid for doing something you enjoy it only serves to expand magic as you explore further possibilities and horizons, the old magic of playing with chemicals in a darkroom is just as present in the excitement of sitting down in front of a new batch raw files.... being paid for doing something creative which you enjoy is a gift few people have in this day and age.

tan510jomast · « **Reply #66 on:** January 22, 2009, 18:59 »

Shoot for fun, or shoot for money. Well, microstock isn't getting anyone (except for a few who have been in the business long enough) rich. Rich perharps after the foreign exchange, as noted by someone in the other topics.
I think it's a bit of both. You start out thinking it's fun to shoot for microstock, but after the rejections, it takes away the fun. Then you sell a couple and sell another couple, and realise there is a fine line between what is good photograph and what is a good stock photograph. This is where you decide whether to face reality of being a stock photographer, and quit if you feel it's against everything you've studied in photography, or decide that it's marketing and economics. It's all a business, like shooting for press. The editor says this is not time to think about being Ansel Adams, and you say, "Ya ma'am, and you go get the picture!"
But , the lucky ones are the ones who make enough money so that they don't have to work a 9 - 9 job or do some boring accounting job or whatnot.
And if you're in a country that earns very little, this is the best job you can have.
So really, it is good, great, amazing, for some people... all depending on your situation. But yes, it's not all about money, especially if you have a job that pays
one heck of a lot more just sitting not doing anything other than giving order, lol

Perrush · « **Reply #67 on:** January 22, 2009, 19:09 »

Quote

Indeed, if you get paid for doing something you enjoy it only serves to expand magic as you explore further possibilities and horizons, the old magic of playing with chemicals in a darkroom is just as present in the excitement of sitting down in front of a new batch raw files.... being paid for doing something creative which you enjoy is a gift few people have in this day and age.

if you shoot for stock, there isn't any magic. You know what you will shoot and how it will look like even before you start shooting. It are not your own idea's because you need to see what sells and shoot those subjects.

I can see the magic in your eyes when, what you thought will be your best image, is rejected for whatever reason OR when your good selling subject is being copied by others whom are much higher in the search ranks.

Being paid for your images is not bad, changing your workflow to meet standards isn't either. Only shooting good selling subjects in mass IS imho. Depending on the money you earn is an other one imho.

gostwyck · « **Reply #68 on:** January 22, 2009, 19:19 »

Quote from: Perrush on January 22, 2009, 19:09

if you shoot for stock, there isn't any magic. You know what you will shoot and how it will look like even before you start shooting. It are not your own idea's because you need to see what sells and shoot those subjects.

I can see the magic in your eyes when, what you thought will be your best image, is rejected for whatever reason OR when your good selling subject is being copied by others whom are much higher in the search ranks.

Being paid for your images is not bad, changing your workflow to meet standards isn't either. Only shooting good selling subjects in mass IS imho. Depending on the money you earn is an other one imho.

Ouch! You have a painfully depressing attitude, clearly your glass will always be 'half-empty'.

Oh dear; how sad; never mind. Another potential competitor bites the dust.

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #69 on:** January 22, 2009, 19:37 »

Quote from: RT on January 22, 2009, 17:34

Now it appears I've taken the Mr Nasty mantle away from Sean, sorry Sean.

I thought I was Mr. Grumpy.

lisafx · « **Reply #70 on:** January 22, 2009, 19:45 »

Quote from: Pixart on January 22, 2009, 17:54

One of my all-time faves too. I took it to a friend's recently and they were both utterly revolted and wouldn't watch it past the first 15 minutes. Me-artist. Them-normal.

Unbelievable! You definitely need different friends. Trainspotting is brilliant!

tan510jomast · « **Reply #71 on:** January 22, 2009, 20:21 »

Quote from: sjlocke on January 22, 2009, 19:37

Quote from: RT on January 22, 2009, 17:34
Now it appears I've taken the Mr Nasty mantle away from Sean, sorry Sean.

I thought I was Mr. Grumpy.

it's 2009 , everybody needs a chg of scenery , Sean included

Elenathewise · « **Reply #72 on:** January 22, 2009, 20:32 »

In my opinion, helping doesn't hurt anyone. The thing is, if the person is talented and determined, he/she will achieve their goals no matter if you help them or not. They will find out about those "secrets" and "tricks" on their own, by trial and error, books, internet. By sharing some info you make their life a little bit easier, giving them a bit of a shortcut, but you're not changing a big picture. And for the people who are not able to find out about those "tricks" themselves, no amount of help will actually help. It's a no lose situation. And helping others actually makes you feel nice, instead of feeling like an a**hole:)

Tuilay · « **Reply #73 on:** January 22, 2009, 20:36 »

Quote from: Elenathewise on January 22, 2009, 20:32

In my opinion, helping doesn't hurt anyone. The thing is, if the person is talented and determined, he/she will achieve their goals no matter if you help them or not. They will find out about those "secrets" and "tricks" on their own, by trial and error, books, internet. By sharing some info you make their life a little bit easier, giving them a bit of a shortcut, but you're not changing a big picture. And for the people who are not able to find out about those "tricks" themselves, no amount of help will actually help. It's a no lose situation. And helping others actually makes you feel nice, instead of feeling like an a**hole:)

well said Elena. you can tell show them all you want, or not, the one with the talent will find it out for themselves eventually anyway. and if you consider them a threat as a newbie, they will be a bigger threat to you once they gain the experience. helping them will have them remember you as a helpful network, so you will have them as a peer rather than a rival. they will remember what you did for them as a newbie.

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #74 on:** January 22, 2009, 21:15 »

Quote from: Tuilay on January 22, 2009, 20:36

well said Elena. you can tell show them all you want, or not, the one with the talent will find it out for themselves eventually anyway. and if you consider them a threat as a newbie, they will be a bigger threat to you once they gain the experience. helping them will have them remember you as a helpful network, so you will have them as a peer rather than a rival. they will remember what you did for them as a newbie.

Just curious how this matters about anything. "Remember what you did for them as a newbie"... I've answered a lot of questions about various things to people's emails, and aside from getting the occasional "thanks", I'm not sure if any of them remember what I passed along, or how it is supposed to affect me now, aside from them competing with me.

So, what is their good memory supposed to do for me someday?

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Author Topic: very low sales - opinions of experienced photographers (Read 28556 times)

RacePhoto

avava

null

tan510jomast

Tuilay

PeterChigmaroff

tan510jomast

RT

Pixart

maigi

Perrush

RT

maigi

XeniaII

gostwyck

thesentinel

tan510jomast

Perrush

gostwyck

Sean Locke Photography

lisafx

tan510jomast

Elenathewise

Tuilay

Sean Locke Photography

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