"And drug safety is a great example: how many had to die while waiting for FDA to approve some blood pressure drug, already available in Europe and elsewhere?" So are you saying there should be no Drug Regulation....or better Drug Regulation? I think most people agree there should be better laws

As I said, I never advocated for anarchy. We need laws.

But when someone desperately sick has to wait 10 years for a drug to be approved, only to eventually die before having the chance to try it, we have to admit that something is wrong with a law that was initially meant to protect us.

Like this Photoshop law, too many such laws are unnecessary, excessive and counterproductive. Too many voters are indoctrinated to believe that an abstract benevolent entity (i.e. "nanny state") is looking out for their safety and well being, better than themselves.

This is the fallacy I want to address through these maybe way too long explanations.

Thats more interesting territory although of course straying way off topic (The things I do to avoid key wording). One of my issues with UK membership is that EU bureaucrats can initiate legislation. In the UK that role is reserved for Parliament who theoretically at least represent the people. Yes there may be too much and poor legislation but that doesn't been all of it is bad.

Sure! Agree.

And to stay on topic, after so many digressions, maybe we can also finally agree that this anti-Photoshop/skinny model law is one of the bad, unnecessary and counterproductive laws.

The topic of Getty banning the liquify action from their stock is certainly being widely discussed in many places on the net.

What I really don�t understand is, why nobody is talking about the main problem. The French cultural obsession with the "silhouette".

I don�t know that many countries, but in a different life in my early twenties I did go to France quite a bit to see friends. I weighed 66-68 kg, perfectly normal at 1.72m. But all the time I would be teased, in a very friendly and very loving way, about me being such a chubby girl and how I would be so much better looking if I lost at least 10 kg.

"Think of your silhouette", they would chime.

Some girls even suggested I should take up smoking, seemed to help many of them. It was weird, nobody ever suggested I should lose that much weight here. German students aren�t that focussed on elegance, at least my crowd wasn�t. Old T-shirts, jeans and the inevitable Birkenstock and a handknit pullover made from organic wool from a farm you had visited and maybe you even knew the sheeps name the wool came from...


I�ve been told the rest of France doesn�t necessarily share the obsession, but somewhere between ballet dance and a beauty ideal of having a childs body with incredibly huge eyes and lips, something went really wrong.

But to externalize blame on a photoshop action, instead of having a real cultural discussion about health and self esteemed, that a girls or womans value is not based on her outer shape alone.

So many cultures like healthy women, with volume coming out at the right places. Why not share the fun. It�s not like they don�t know how to party.

At least embrace some diversity, in the way you dress and in body shapes. people come in all forms and sizes, they are still human.

Banning photoshop is simply a way to avoid responsibilty and really tackle the issue of the French infatuation with a body type that simply looks underage and very vulnerable to me.

The topic of Getty banning the liquify action from their stock is certainly being widely discussed in many places on the net.

What I really don�t understand is, why nobody is talking about the main problem. The French cultural obsession with the "silhouette".

I don�t know that many countries, but in a different life in my early twenties I did go to France quite a bit to see friends. I weighed 66-68 kg, perfectly normal at 1.72m. But all the time I would be teased, in a very friendly and very loving way, about me being such a chubby girl and how I would be so much better looking if I lost at least 10 kg.

"Think of your silhouette", they would chime.

Some girls even suggested I should take up smoking, seemed to help many of them. It was weird, nobody ever suggested I should lose that much weight here. German students aren�t that focussed on elegance, at least my crowd wasn�t. Old T-shirts, jeans and the inevitable Birkenstock and a handknit pullover made from organic wool from a farm you had visited and maybe you even knew the sheeps name the wool came from...


I�ve been told the rest of France doesn�t necessarily share the obsession, but somewhere between ballet dance and a beauty ideal of having a childs body with incredibly huge eyes and lips, something went really wrong.

But to externalize blame on a photoshop action, instead of having a real cultural discussion about health and self esteemed, that a girls or womans value is not based on her outer shape alone.

So many cultures like healthy women, with volume coming out at the right places. Why not share the fun. It�s not like they don�t know how to party.

At least embrace some diversity, in the way you dress and in body shapes. people come in all forms and sizes, they are still human.

Banning photoshop is simply a way to avoid responsibilty and really tackle the issue of the French infatuation with a body type that simply looks underage and very vulnerable to me.

France didn't ban the photoshop action. Getty did.

Sometimes it takes more than talking about something to effect change. Obviously the French government felt that talking to fashion designers wasn't working, so they passed a law requiring models to have a healthier BMI...but if their images are then photoshopped to make it look as though they were just as skinny as before, it doesn't really change anything for all the other young women in the world who think that body is desirable and achievable.

I was skinny as a rail until my 40's and was approached to model for Elite Petites when in my early 20's (an agency for those of us under 5'8"). But I'd have to lose 10 pounds...even though I was already naturally underweight. You could see my ribs up to my clavicle and my hipbones could slice through a tin can, but I still was not thin enough to model for a minor agency. (I wasn't interested in modeling, so I didn't pursue it.)

That was 30 plus years ago, and the models are just getting thinner. It has to stop.

Quote from: Shelma1 on October 01, 2017, 16:30

Quote from: cobalt on October 01, 2017, 14:52

The topic of Getty banning the liquify action from their stock is certainly being widely discussed in many places on the net.

What I really don�t understand is, why nobody is talking about the main problem. The French cultural obsession with the "silhouette".

I don�t know that many countries, but in a different life in my early twenties I did go to France quite a bit to see friends. I weighed 66-68 kg, perfectly normal at 1.72m. But all the time I would be teased, in a very friendly and very loving way, about me being such a chubby girl and how I would be so much better looking if I lost at least 10 kg.

"Think of your silhouette", they would chime.

Some girls even suggested I should take up smoking, seemed to help many of them. It was weird, nobody ever suggested I should lose that much weight here. German students aren�t that focussed on elegance, at least my crowd wasn�t. Old T-shirts, jeans and the inevitable Birkenstock and a handknit pullover made from organic wool from a farm you had visited and maybe you even knew the sheeps name the wool came from...


I�ve been told the rest of France doesn�t necessarily share the obsession, but somewhere between ballet dance and a beauty ideal of having a childs body with incredibly huge eyes and lips, something went really wrong.

But to externalize blame on a photoshop action, instead of having a real cultural discussion about health and self esteemed, that a girls or womans value is not based on her outer shape alone.

So many cultures like healthy women, with volume coming out at the right places. Why not share the fun. It�s not like they don�t know how to party.

At least embrace some diversity, in the way you dress and in body shapes. people come in all forms and sizes, they are still human.

Banning photoshop is simply a way to avoid responsibilty and really tackle the issue of the French infatuation with a body type that simply looks underage and very vulnerable to me.

France didn't ban the photoshop action. Getty did.

Oh well... you persist in blaming the effect, instead the cause.

As per your logic, it's not the government of Venezuela starving its citizens with their failed laws and crumbling economic system, it's the greed of rich people, the evil foreign investors, etc.
Laws are good, people are bad!

Remove your horse blinders and look around. Getty would have never reacted like this in the absence of this stupid law.

Another clear example of an obtuse government hindering creativity.

As others have pointed out, Getty could have just added a line and a check mark to the model release.

Please don't drive dunk tonight, Mr. all laws are bad.

I am from Italy, which on this topic is much, much stricter than France (I have lived in France for about 12 years, so I know).
While leaving in Italy I always had a perfect silhouette, it is simply unthinkable there to be overweight: your friends would avoid you and your girl friends would laugh at you. Don't even think about it.
Now I have been leaving in England for about 16 years and I have put up a few kilos too many: who cares anyway, they are all obese here, I am still much thinner than most...
Recently I went on holiday in Italy and France and realised than I am not that popular anymore with my former friends, some of the good ones took me apart and told me: what is the matter with you? Why did you let yourself go, you used to be a legend around here.
Coming back to England I started going to the gym everyday and control again what I eat and drink and I keep losing weight.
Thank you Italy for once

Yes, I remember my italian friends, I mean some of those girls they would literally live on 4 grapes, a bit of cheese, tons of coffee and lots of cigarettes. Didn�t realise it was even worse than France, though.

I don�t mind being nagged to a healthy weight, but to do it with cigarettes, coffee and genuine starvation, fainting often, looking weak and ill, i am sorry that is just not an alternative for me.

It is fascinating what you report how people start to avoid you, like you are constantly and loudly drunk, or have a terrible disease they might catch.

But it is mostly women on women, right?

How can they be happy and have self esteem if everything is judged only on their weight and their looks?

Being healthy, eating well, going to the gym and relaxing often is one thing.

But the people I met were unbelievably nervous, often seriously depressed and very insecure. And yet always asking their female friends to critize them. A bit like ballet, the "favorite" girl was always the one most heavily scolded by the teacher. If they critique you, they care, if they don�t snipe at you, you are not worth their effort.

I really like France and French people, but I am glad I live in Germany, especially as a women it seems to be so much easier. Society expects you to work hard in your job but otherwise you can meet your friends in your pyjamas, enjoy eating large meals and relaxing in your hammock. At home you don�t pretend. And you would never abandon your friends over their looks. If you do, it would be more than weird. Obviously friendships have their ups and downs, but I don�t see weight issues being a problem. It would be like leaving someone because they changed their hair color, or preferred to wear jeans instead of skirts. Why would you do that?

French women seem to handle everything - their looks, the kids, the job, their family and their 5-7 affairs while looking perfectly slim, elegant and effortlessly floating on air. Literally super human. But home life was much stricter and more formal than what I am used to.

It�s their country, but overall I am really not surprised that girls have low self esteem and serious body image issues.

Just because there's a problem at one end of the spectrum (obesity) doesn't mean there isn't also a problem at the other (anorexia and bulimia).

It's possible to tackle both simultaneously. Saying one is worse so we should ignore the other is a false dichotomy. If you're concerned about obesity then do something about it, but don't tell others not to tackle the problem of models and young girls and women starving themselves.

It's much more important to save some people's lives and health than it is for a relatively small number of photographers to have to label some of their photos.

If you're angry with Getty for their reaction, I wonder why this, which will probably affect a small percentage of the photos taken by a very small percentage of their contributors, has you so much more upset than the million other nasty things they've done to screw us over.

After all, photographers can still shoot skinny people. They just can't "liquefy" them and submit to Getty.

Just because there's a problem at one end of the spectrum (obesity) doesn't mean there isn't also a problem at the other (anorexia and bulimia).

Let me paraphrase you: "Just because there's a problem at one end of the spectrum (alcoholism) doesn't mean there isn't also a problem at the other (hyponatremia)"

According to your logic, the "state" should also regulate drinking water sales and advertising, because some might end-up drinking too much water and die.
Such law could sound like: no one should buy more than, let's say 6 bottles of water, at once. How would you feel about such laws meant to protect YOU from the danger of hyponatremia?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318619.php

I'm fully aware this might be an extreme example but it highlights a principle.

As a friend of mine would say: "much ado about nothing"
:-)

Oh, you know Bill too? What a guy!

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on October 02, 2017, 10:45

Quote from: Brightontl on October 02, 2017, 06:34

As a friend of mine would say: "much ado about nothing"
:-)

Oh, you know Bill too? What a guy!

Good old Billy...

Beware of skinny people.

"Yond' Cassius has a lean and hungry look;
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous."

Quote from: Shelma1 on October 02, 2017, 10:38

Quote from: Zero Talent on October 02, 2017, 09:59

Quote from: Shelma1 on October 02, 2017, 05:40

Just because there's a problem at one end of the spectrum (obesity) doesn't mean there isn't also a problem at the other (anorexia and bulimia).

Let me paraphrase you: "Just because there's a problem at one end of the spectrum (alcoholism) doesn't mean there isn't also a problem at the other (hyponatremia)"

According to your logic, the "state" should also regulate drinking water sales and advertising, because some might end-up drinking too much water and die.
Such law could sound like: no one should buy more than, let's say 6 bottles of water, at once. How would you feel about such laws meant to protect YOU from the danger of hyponatremia?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318619.php

I'm fully aware this might be an extreme example but it highlights a principle.

The other end of the spectrum from alcoholism is abstaining from drinking alcohol, not hyponatremia. So your principle is out the window.

Ha, Ha! What a great argument!
Water is actually at the other end, if you consider the percentage of alcohol in a liquid. Pure alcohol is at one end of the spectrum, while water is, obviously, at the other end. But analogies, metaphors and principles work only for those able to cope with basic abstractions.

Nevertheless, even without being gifted with this power, according to your logic, you must ask your "nanny state" tot issue laws regulating selling and advertising water, because you can really die from water intoxication. Obviously you need that "benevolent entity" to protect you, from yourself.

"analogies, metaphors and principles work only for those able to cope with basic abstractions."

Says the genius who thinks alcoholism is created by drinking pure alcohol. And that consuming too much water is caused by it not containing alcohol. 

Quote from: Zero Talent on October 02, 2017, 13:16

Quote from: Shelma1 on October 02, 2017, 10:38

Quote from: Zero Talent on October 02, 2017, 09:59

Quote from: Shelma1 on October 02, 2017, 05:40

Just because there's a problem at one end of the spectrum (obesity) doesn't mean there isn't also a problem at the other (anorexia and bulimia).

Let me paraphrase you: "Just because there's a problem at one end of the spectrum (alcoholism) doesn't mean there isn't also a problem at the other (hyponatremia)"

According to your logic, the "state" should also regulate drinking water sales and advertising, because some might end-up drinking too much water and die.
Such law could sound like: no one should buy more than, let's say 6 bottles of water, at once. How would you feel about such laws meant to protect YOU from the danger of hyponatremia?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318619.php

I'm fully aware this might be an extreme example but it highlights a principle.

The other end of the spectrum from alcoholism is abstaining from drinking alcohol, not hyponatremia. So your principle is out the window.

Ha, Ha! What a great argument!
Water is actually at the other end, if you consider the percentage of alcohol in a liquid. Pure alcohol is at one end of the spectrum, while water is, obviously, at the other end. But analogies, metaphors and principles work only for those able to cope with basic abstractions.

Nevertheless, even without being gifted with this power, according to your logic, you must ask your "nanny state" tot issue laws regulating selling and advertising water, because you can really die from water intoxication. Obviously you need that "benevolent entity" to protect you, from yourself.

"analogies, metaphors and principles work only for those able to cope with basic abstractions."

Says the genius who thinks alcoholism is created by drinking pure alcohol. And that consuming too much water is caused by it not containing alcohol. 

Ok, take that, if you insist, since this was not the point. I admit alcoholism is not about drinking pure alcohol! Wow, how could I even think that?

Regardless of my "poor understanding"  of what alcoholism means and independent from the above paraphrase, to stay true to your logic, you still must ask your "nanny state" to issue laws regulating selling and advertising water.

You can really die from water intoxication. No metaphor, no paraphrase, no abstraction involved.

Obviously you need that "benevolent entity" to protect you, from yourself.

Quote from: Zero Talent on October 02, 2017, 14:08

Quote from: Shelma1 on October 02, 2017, 13:51

Quote from: Zero Talent on October 02, 2017, 13:16

Quote from: Shelma1 on October 02, 2017, 10:38

Quote from: Zero Talent on October 02, 2017, 09:59

Quote from: Shelma1 on October 02, 2017, 05:40

Just because there's a problem at one end of the spectrum (obesity) doesn't mean there isn't also a problem at the other (anorexia and bulimia).

Let me paraphrase you: "Just because there's a problem at one end of the spectrum (alcoholism) doesn't mean there isn't also a problem at the other (hyponatremia)"

According to your logic, the "state" should also regulate drinking water sales and advertising, because some might end-up drinking too much water and die.
Such law could sound like: no one should buy more than, let's say 6 bottles of water, at once. How would you feel about such laws meant to protect YOU from the danger of hyponatremia?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318619.php

I'm fully aware this might be an extreme example but it highlights a principle.

The other end of the spectrum from alcoholism is abstaining from drinking alcohol, not hyponatremia. So your principle is out the window.

Ha, Ha! What a great argument!
Water is actually at the other end, if you consider the percentage of alcohol in a liquid. Pure alcohol is at one end of the spectrum, while water is, obviously, at the other end. But analogies, metaphors and principles work only for those able to cope with basic abstractions.

Nevertheless, even without being gifted with this power, according to your logic, you must ask your "nanny state" tot issue laws regulating selling and advertising water, because you can really die from water intoxication. Obviously you need that "benevolent entity" to protect you, from yourself.

"analogies, metaphors and principles work only for those able to cope with basic abstractions."

Says the genius who thinks alcoholism is created by drinking pure alcohol. And that consuming too much water is caused by it not containing alcohol. 

Ok, take that, if you insist, since this was not the point. I admit alcoholism is not about drinking pure alcohol! Wow, how could I even think that?

Regardless of my "poor understanding"  of what alcoholism means and independent from the above paraphrase, to stay true to your logic, you still must ask your "nanny state" to issue laws regulating selling and advertising water.

You can really die from water intoxication. No metaphor, no paraphrase, no abstraction involved.

Obviously you need that "benevolent entity" to protect you, from yourself.

I think if there were a major Public Health issue around people dying from water intoxication they would. I think in this never ending circle you did say some laws are necessary. Most people are pragmatic and don't take extreme examples and derive a manifestly absurd conclusion.

True.

To follow your argument, I doubt there is a "major Public Health issue" for people looking at photoshoped models advertised without retouching disclaimers.

Yeah, too much "looking", might lead to death. We definitely have to regulate "looking". 

Therefore there is as much need for this anti-photoshop/skinny models law, as there is for laws aimed to regulate water intoxication, sunbathing, etc or other such innocent activities, which might lead to death, in case of abuse.