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Author Topic: What do you tell aspiring photographers about stock?  (Read 14975 times)

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lisafx

« on: August 25, 2009, 08:51 »
0
Is it just me, or is everyone constantly getting questions about stock from friends, acquaintances, etc. who are either studying photography or know someone who is?

For example, at church Sunday a couple I know only slightly came up and wanted advice about getting started in stock for a friend of theirs who is studying photography at community college.  She doesn't have any idea whether she wants to do commercial work, weddings & portraits, photojournalism, or stock.  This happens all the time.  I should have a better prepared speech I guess.

So my choice is be really positive and encouraging or tell the truth.  Which as I see it is that microstock is not the way to go for someone starting out as a photographer and wanting to make a living.  IMO this field has just become way over-saturated with content and the odds of a newbie just starting out being able to make a living at this is beyond minimal.  Even some of the early entrants into micro appear to have thrown in the towel, or at least branched into other fields of photography.  The recent and continuing influx of macro stock pros just makes the competition even more fierce.

I would probably seem much nicer if I chose the positive and encouraging route, but I generally opt for telling the truth ;)

I ended up suggesting that while their friend is still in school she should take some business and marketing classes.   In the portrait & wedding market, anyway, it seems like success is more dependent on business and marketing skill than photographic artistry.

I assume others of you get the same type of thing - people figuring that there are buckets of money on the table waiting to be grabbed for any eager novice photographer.  How do you handle it?  My response could use some polish, for sure :)

 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 08:56 by lisafx »


« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2009, 09:07 »
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I would probably seem much nicer if I chose the positive and encouraging route, but I generally opt for telling the truth ;)

Always the best route, although some don't like to hear it.  I think they've all been raised now on the numerous "Make Money from your Snapshots" web sites.  These bloggers may have done quite the disservice to the believing public in their zeal for gaining new referrals or whatever their reason.  Or these newbs see someone with a long history and some success and figure it's as easy as buying some apples and white paper.

There were two models at the lypse in Calgary who wanted to start shooting stock.  Very nice people.  However, apparently, they had just gone out and got a D60 or got it from a friend or something, and wanted to get started right away.  I was like "Ahhh, ok.  Good luck with that.".  What are you going to say?

« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2009, 09:15 »
0
Interesting. To be honest my experience is the just the opposite __ most people I talk to consider earning a living with a camera to be so far beyond their comprehension or ability that they wouldn't dream of attempting it. I don't think I've ever had anyone seriously ask me questions about how they could do it.

I think you should be honest. Tell them it is difficult but also possible for those who are really determined __ and it will take time too. I think you do have to have at least some natural aptitude and a lot of interest in photography for it to work though.

« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2009, 09:19 »
0
Tell the truth, always the best service.
I get the same question about videogames: "How do I become a videogame programmer?"
Well, if you are ready to be underpaid, work long hours and long weeks for months, be stressed all the time and see very stiff competition in front of you... go ahead, but you do it for passion, not for money.

People just run off to send their CV to a bank afterwards :)

« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2009, 09:20 »
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Well, if you are ready to be underpaid, work long hours and long weeks for months, be stressed all the time and see very stiff competition in front of you... go ahead, but you do it for passion, not for money.

That's good and pretty accurate for all but a very few!

hqimages

  • www.draiochtwebdesign.com
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2009, 09:24 »
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Well I don't just have people asking, but now camera shops!!!! One chain of camera shops here seems to be in trouble, and I'm running a promo with them for another client.. but if THEY can't make a living from photography I thought what hope does the freelancer have!

Good money in Weddings alright for some people, but again, the market is pretty much sewn up via referrals/personality, so VERY hard for a new photographer to break through (plus every gig involves a totally new client which is costly from an advertising/marketing point of view, repeat custom is preferable).. this camera shop I'm dealing with has an entire FLOOR dedicated to their studio, and they never use it.. it ridiculous, it's as if they just think 'weddings, and family portraits', they can't see beyond that and slowly their hardware business is being undermined by on-line dealerships.. it's very frustrating.

All you can do is give some advice and ideas, try and open people's minds a bit, point them in roughly the right direction and the rest is so much up to them.. you can fight new methods, or you can use them to your advantage, and if they don't use new methods to their advantage, there's a very high chance they will die.

Even on the radio the other day they were having a weddings feature, and two women were in agreement that camera equipment is so good now there's no need to hire an official photographer, they felt you stand around for too long, it slows down/interrupts the day, and that the photos taken by friends normally end up being the best ones anyway  ::)

Go figure! If anyone has the secret to this industry beyond working hard which we all already do, it beats me!  :)

« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2009, 09:26 »
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I say:

-You should have asked me at least five years ago
-Lots of work / little money / hard competition
-You feel like a prostitute when selling work for pennies
-There is a certain feeling of freedom
-No annoying clients (just annoying agencies)
-It's a volume/quality game
-Shooting is just a small part of the work

Nowdays, every shooter that don't try doing stock is a good shooter (less competition)  :)

« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2009, 09:44 »
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I used to be very bullish on stock photography but obviously not so these days. There are still plenty of opportunities but it's a lot harder now.

« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2009, 12:01 »
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I do one thing only. I ask them to Google the following terms: Wedding Photography, Micro stock photography, Macro stock photography, Commercial photography, and Photojournalism. Then call me in a week to discuss. That exercise will teach them more about photography careers than all the college photo classes they could take in a lifetime. 99% of the time you'll never hear another word from them on the subject.

« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2009, 12:32 »
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Ive had several people ask me how to get involved with stock photography and I just give them the names of some of the micro agencies.  I figure they will either see the quality and forget about it or get excited and start shooting.  Sometimes people can surprise you.

« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2009, 13:52 »
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I'm an illustrator not a photographer, but I'd probably go with the truth. The truth being that they're young and isn't too late to do something easier like nuclear physics. Seriously, I think it's good to be encouraging to people just starting out, but there isn't anything wrong with giving them a little dose of reality. Although if they invite you over to show you snapshots of their cat, it's OK to run like hell.

lisafx

« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2009, 14:05 »
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Interesting.  Looks like we are all pretty much on the same page as to the difficulty of getting into stock now.

You are right about the wedding industry too, Hilary.  I tried my hand at that early in the game and discovered what you are saying.  Lots of people don't want to pay for something they think they can do just as well themselves.  
This is why I think that a business/marketing background is more useful in photography than actual photographic ability.  It is rare I have seen wedding photos (locally) that impressed me from an artistic standpoint.  Most of the successful ones around here do mediocre work but market themselves really well.  The few that really do great work can charge a fortune, but as you said, they have the market sewn up.

I say:

-You should have asked me at least five years ago
-Lots of work / little money / hard competition
-You feel like a prostitute when selling work for pennies
-There is a certain feeling of freedom
-No annoying clients (just annoying agencies)
-It's a volume/quality game
-Shooting is just a small part of the work

Nowdays, every shooter that don't try doing stock is a good shooter (less competition)  :)

LOL!  All very well said, Perry!  Your assessment of the situation is spot on.  Unfortunately I would not have the cojones to be quite so blunt ;)

Really great suggestions in this thread!  Thanks!

« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2009, 14:13 »
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I don't get the question really, but if I did, I'd say that no matter what you shoot, only artists with a decent grasp of business ever make a living off photography or filmmaking (I work in both industries). Once you start hitting them over the head about things like "cash flow", "market saturation", "diminishing returns", etc... I bet you'd probably destroy their dreams. Oh well, they'll learn one way or another, might as well hear it all up front while they still have a shirt on their back.

« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2009, 14:13 »
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I'd say that unless you know a bunch of smiley, good-looking young people willing to pose for nothing, then forget about making any money. 

« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2009, 14:26 »
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My the way I do buy and market images!

I ask if they have a portfolio. If no portfolio, I tell them they need to build a portfolio.
If they have a portfolio, I ask to see it.  I tell them I am interested in purchasing excellent quality image if they meet my requirements. You can guess the outcome on 97.5%  of the portfolios. Sometimes I am surprised!

Perry hit the nail on the head.

-You should have asked me at least five years ago
-Lots of work / little money / hard competition
-You feel like a prostitute when selling work for pennies
-There is a certain feeling of freedom
-No annoying clients (just annoying agencies)
-It's a volume/quality game
-Shooting is just a small part of the work





« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2009, 14:39 »
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Hi All,

 20 years ago on a field trip from photo school to a major stock shooters studio I remember one part of advice he offered so clearly. After his speech about his business and educating us on stock he turned to everyone and finished with " Unfortunately it is to late for any of you to compete on this level. The pros have this business sown up and someone just starting out will never stand a chance of making it ". Never say Never.

Best,
Jonathan

« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2009, 14:54 »
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I would take a different approach.

There IS money to be made in microstock.  All one has to do is do some homework to see what people are buying and find a niche.

You will not succeed if you simply upload the types of things you LIKE to shoot and pay no regard to what buyers NEED.  It may be tough for some to hear, but no one wants your rainbow or puppy dog shots.

Nor will you succeed if you look at someone like Yuri and decide you can do the same thing and make a fortune like him.  To beat him at his game, or come anywhere near him, you have to do what he does BETTER than he does it.  But he's perfected his processes.  You're not going to come near him.

But you CAN succeed if you:

1) Find your niche - find out the types of shots that sell and are not currently flooding the market.  There are underserved niches out there.  I've been finding them, and so can you if you do your homework.

2) Be creative - approach subjects differently than anyone else is doing them.  Again, if you're just doing model shots or static objects on white, your stuff better blow away everything else out there if you have any hope of succeeding. 

3) Build your own style and you'll develop a following.  When others catch on and start copying you, abandon that style and come up with another.  To survive you must eveolve.

4) Concepts sell.  The image should be symbolic of something meaningful to the buyer.  It's not hard to figure out what concepts sell better than others.

Anyway, that's what I'd say.  Not all doom and gloom.  If someone has business sense and an ounce of creativity, he/she can do very well in microstock.
 


hqimages

  • www.draiochtwebdesign.com
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2009, 15:01 »
0
Hi All,

 20 years ago on a field trip from photo school to a major stock shooters studio I remember one part of advice he offered so clearly. After his speech about his business and educating us on stock he turned to everyone and finished with " Unfortunately it is to late for any of you to compete on this level. The pros have this business sown up and someone just starting out will never stand a chance of making it ". Never say Never.

Best,
Jonathan

lol! How encouraging  ::) Still, us photographers are a stubborn bunch, I think that's why we stick it out in microstock ad infinitum, the more they say it can't be done, the more we want to do it!!

« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2009, 15:03 »
0
I would take a different approach.

There IS money to be made in microstock.  All one has to do is do some homework to see what people are buying and find a niche.

You will not succeed if you simply upload the types of things you LIKE to shoot and pay no regard to what buyers NEED.  It may be tough for some to hear, but no one wants your rainbow or puppy dog shots.

Nor will you succeed if you look at someone like Yuri and decide you can do the same thing and make a fortune like him.  To beat him at his game, or come anywhere near him, you have to do what he does BETTER than he does it.  But he's perfected his processes.  You're not going to come near him.

But you CAN succeed if you:

1) Find your niche - find out the types of shots that sell and are not currently flooding the market.  There are underserved niches out there.  I've been finding them, and so can you if you do your homework.

2) Be creative - approach subjects differently than anyone else is doing them.  Again, if you're just doing model shots or static objects on white, your stuff better blow away everything else out there if you have any hope of succeeding. 

3) Build your own style and you'll develop a following.  When others catch on and start copying you, abandon that style and come up with another.  To survive you must eveolve.

4) Concepts sell.  The image should be symbolic of something meaningful to the buyer.  It's not hard to figure out what concepts sell better than others.

Anyway, that's what I'd say.  Not all doom and gloom.  If someone has business sense and an ounce of creativity, he/she can do very well in microstock.
 

Best post I've read in a long while.

« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2009, 15:25 »
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^^^ I'd agree.

« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2009, 16:15 »
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Hey PowerDroid- you said it all! Great post
Smiling Jack

« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2009, 17:40 »
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"What do you tell aspiring photographers about stock?".....If you value your sanity stay away from forums ;D

lisafx

« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2009, 18:04 »
0
"What do you tell aspiring photographers about stock?".....If you value your sanity stay away from forums ;D

LOL!  Very true! ^^

And really great, detailed advice PowerDroid! 

Jonathan, I know what you mean.  There are always people who will succeed against the odds.  Those people are the ones who view long odds as a challenge to be overcome (as Hilary said).   Those are also the ones willing to do the additional research, in addition to asking an acquaintance :)

« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2009, 18:45 »
0
depends on the folks asking...
      sadly,  everyone with a digital camera fansies themselves a "photographer'... 
and while the digiatl age HAS  enabled some with talent that  never knew they had... to come out of their shells,  most are still family snapshoters.

If it's a good friend, I'm honest with them (well, I'm honest with everyone).. but .
If they have 'the eye',  I will encourage them with positive tech tips. With friends, I'll take the time to sit down and look at their work... then critique it
If they don't have the talent..... I try to let them down easy by showing them... what sells on micro and show them they have to 'gain much more experience...'

I always try to be nice and no matter how funky their pix are,  try to find a few good ones to praise... indicating that they need to produce shots like that on a 90% level at the minimum,  or... they'd be wasting their time.  Most... accept that  they... really,  aren't that good.

OTOH....  I've had a few friends.... start giving me a run for the money. They are becoming good/great!!   8)=tom

« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2009, 19:41 »
0
Is it just me, or is everyone constantly getting questions about stock from friends, acquaintances, etc. who are either studying photography or know someone who is?

For example, at church Sunday a couple I know only slightly came up and wanted advice about getting started in stock for a friend of theirs who is studying photography at community college.  She doesn't have any idea whether she wants to do commercial work, weddings & portraits, photojournalism, or stock.  This happens all the time.  I should have a better prepared speech I guess.

So my choice is be really positive and encouraging or tell the truth.  Which as I see it is that microstock is not the way to go for someone starting out as a photographer and wanting to make a living.  IMO this field has just become way over-saturated with content and the odds of a newbie just starting out being able to make a living at this is beyond minimal.  Even some of the early entrants into micro appear to have thrown in the towel, or at least branched into other fields of photography.  The recent and continuing influx of macro stock pros just makes the competition even more fierce.

I would probably seem much nicer if I chose the positive and encouraging route, but I generally opt for telling the truth ;)

I ended up suggesting that while their friend is still in school she should take some business and marketing classes.   In the portrait & wedding market, anyway, it seems like success is more dependent on business and marketing skill than photographic artistry.

I assume others of you get the same type of thing - people figuring that there are buckets of money on the table waiting to be grabbed for any eager novice photographer.  How do you handle it?  My response could use some polish, for sure :)

 

once we get past the 'stock photography' - What? photos of cows?? (disadvantage of living in cattle country :))

I tell people I get between $0.30 and a few dollars, and they look at me weird, and usually say something like so if Nat.Geo use your image for front cover you get a dollar $1. the polite ones say you mus be crazy, and say something like you should do weddings...


 

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