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Author Topic: Who's job is it to police images on stock sites?  (Read 11606 times)

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« on: April 18, 2008, 22:30 »
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In light of recent developments regarding image theft, I'm wondering now who is
responsible for catching the thieves? Some people are so arrogant as to say ...."how did it get by the reviewers?"

I have read a few people say that it is the hosting site that should have caught this guy.
This troubles me. I do not see a clear cut way of catching thieves on any scale that would be effective.

Certainly reviewers are there for one purpose, and now some people are suggesting that they act as traffic cops too!
I believe a savant might help. They would remember every image ever submitted back to the stone age.

Lets get REAL people. Reviewers are there to judge whether your image is a salable one. Nothing else!
It's unfortunate that there are such inscrutable  people who would take advantage of the system.
However, in no way can I see any clear understanding why a particular site, who has been struck by the bandit
should take responsibility for policing, catching, and dealing with such matters.

 Sure if he is found out by any means ban him and revoke his earnings.

The MIZ




Leo Blanchette

« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2008, 23:36 »
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Maybe the dirty little secret in this industry is there is no answer to that question you pose.  ;)

I think the greatest defense is the large number of contributors who are familiar with everyone else's work and alert one another. Then the larger sites also have some pretty amazing intimidation and legal power when the art thieves are found out...so far it would seem the microstock community as a whole is great at spotting/catching them, but as for the official responsibility... ?

I'd love to know the answer too!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 23:39 by Leo Blanchette »

« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2008, 23:51 »
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why it is so hard to develop software that checks the image that is being admitted against the database of images that are already online ? consider each image as a signature ...

« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2008, 00:50 »
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first, it would mean checking 1-2 million items - but larger problem is it's simple to change an image -- just adjust the lighting,saturation, etc by a slight amount, or resize slightly, etc

s

« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2008, 04:31 »
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If you take the buyer point of view who buys a stolen photo, he may get into trouble if the actual copyright holder sue him.

I think that it is thus very important for all microstock agencies to do whatever necessary to prevent copyright infringement from photo they sell: this is just a smart business practice. It's up to them do decide whether they ask their reviewers to check this point, but you have to remember that it is already the case as a photo will be rejected for copyright infringement if it contains a logo, a copyrighted building or design etc. It seems quite logical to me to check also for stolen photo at review time.

Concerning the case you are talking about here, it was quite obvious that some photo were stolen from very well known microstock contributors (Misha, Kristy Pargeter and the second best all-time earner at SS). Any reviewer who know the microstock business, and I hope they know it, should have noticed that point and should have raised the red flag.

Now, from the contributor point of view, it is in our own interest to inform the agency whenever we see such situation. We do not have any legal responsibility or direct interest, but you have to see the big picture: buyers will no longer purchase photos at agencies which allow stolen photo to be sold for their own interest and it is bad for everybody, including the thief  ;D
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 04:33 by araminta »

« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2008, 05:18 »
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why it is so hard to develop software that checks the image that is being admitted against the database of images that are already online ? consider each image as a signature ...

There is some software outthere that is bundle with some editing software that can idenify if you have identical images on your own system and will allow you to either rename or delete the extra image(s). The downside is that other than the name of the file the image has to be 100% indentical! >:(

« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2008, 10:01 »
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The agency is responsible.  Period.  What happens in the real world to vendors who sell stolen property or pirated movies?   Darn hard for them to authenicate everything though.

« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2008, 10:16 »
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Pixart
I have just been informed in another post, that it is NOT the agency who is selling the images.
It is the photographer who is the actual seller.

The MIZ

« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2008, 10:21 »
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I'm pretty sure that if a photgrapher scanned Annie Liebowitz (sp?) photographs and started selling them on (example) Dreamstime, that Dreamstime would wind up in court, and would wind up paying a lot of money to Liebovitz. 

PaulieWalnuts

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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2008, 10:24 »
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123rf has an image identifying technology for buyers. Why couldn't sites apply this technology to the submission process to screen out image thiefs?

http://www.123rf.com/identifier/

« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2008, 10:28 »
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"...Why couldn't sites apply this technology "

How long would it take to check 5000 images daily by entering one at a time?

RT


« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2008, 11:12 »
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I'm pretty sure that if a photgrapher scanned Annie Liebowitz (sp?) photographs and started selling them on (example) Dreamstime, that Dreamstime would wind up in court, and would wind up paying a lot of money to Liebovitz. 

No but the person submitting them might, when you upload any image to any of the site we all agree that we hold the copyright to the image and that it doesn't breach any third party rights.
This is the agencies get out clause, they make all these rules and regulations to protect themselves from adverse publicity, take your example, although Dreamstime couldn't be held responsable they would get some relly bad publicity.
Think about it logically, they cannot possibly know every single trademark/copyright/celebrity or private property in the world.

If you think about your example, imagine I was a reviewer on Dreamstime, you upload a photo of Annie Lieb....... now I wouldn't know who she was if she passed me in the street, you attach a model release that appears to be in order and I approve it, how could Dreamstime possibly be in any trouble for that, answer they can't.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 11:14 by RT »

« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2008, 11:33 »
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I believe it is everybody's job the agencies, the contributors and the buyers.
We all have a vested interest in the companies that we use, and it would be wise for each of us when doing research on each of the sites to notify the company if we come across a set of images that might be suspicious. 

« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2008, 12:31 »
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i think theft is unavoidable, like in all art... music, writing (even LOR , she got ripped off too, remember? by her own ppl )
i remember when i was in flickr how some really good photos were ripped off from some flickr members. they had no recourse either.
who knows how many end up as stock photographs of the thief.
 ???

this gets scarier every day. i sure hope someone responds to all those of you who reported it.

PaulieWalnuts

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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2008, 16:16 »
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"...Why couldn't sites apply this technology "

How long would it take to check 5000 images daily by entering one at a time?

Good question. Depends on the technology. It sounds like you're assuming each image would need to be uploaded individually. Chances are good it could be modified to review an entire queue of images regardless if they were FTP'd, uploaded one-by-one, or whatever.

Let's say it adds an extra minute to the review process for each image. Would this hurt?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 16:21 by PaulieWalnuts »

jsnover

« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2008, 16:25 »
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I was giving some thought to what sites could do to make it much, much harder to upload 1200+ stolen images in 8 weeks and go undetected (by the site).

Obviously asking us if we hold the copyright isn't enough as theives lie. Insisting on EXIF data doesn't work well as (a) it can be faked and (b) varioius image formats (3d renders, for example) don't support it.

Suppose that all the sites contributed small/med images to a database that they all could access. Suppose that some of the image matching software was run against that database for all new contributors (say for their first 100 or 200 images). Even if this software isn't perfect, I'll bet it could match things up well enough that it would raise a few red flags that could be checked out manually by an admin.

I honestly doubt that there are contributors who try to sneak in 100 stolen images into an otherwise legit portfolio. If you automate this check and all the sites use it for their new contributors and perhaps for the occasional complaint about copying work, it'd be very difficult for these guys to pull the stunt they just have with DT and Fotolia.

Given the black eye the microstock business could walk away with if it gets the reputation for being a place where the images may not be legitimate, I think that all the sites have a vested interest in trying to stop this.

« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2008, 00:12 »
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The agency is responsible.  Period.  What happens in the real world to vendors who sell stolen property or pirated movies?   Darn hard for them to authenicate everything though.
Exactly. And how any reviewer can miss Lumax's golden boy ?
I'm sure that if all artists of stolen images hire a lawyer they can get some money from DT. Maybe it's only solution to make them professional in the future.
BTW stolen portfolio is still there (2 days after contacting DT support). :-\


« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2008, 10:03 »
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No but the person submitting them might, when you upload any image to any of the site we all agree that we hold the copyright to the image and that it doesn't breach any third party rights.
This is the agencies get out clause, they make all these rules and regulations to protect themselves from adverse publicity, take your example, although Dreamstime couldn't be held responsable they would get some relly bad publicity.

.. but still no matter how well written the law or contract there is a certain reasonable responsibility that the law will apply .. some of these images we are discussing are so blatant it seems as at about the same level of a bartender serving a drink to my 8 year old daughter .. no matter how well done her fake ID was .. the courts would not just let the bartender off the hook if he said he checked it.

John

 

« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2008, 11:21 »
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Thieves like this are slipping between the cracks because the crack is so large.

Individual artists don't have the funds or the clout to pursue the matter.  They would need the cooperation of the photo agency selling the images to prove the fraud and you would probably be surprised at how disinclined the stock sites would be to get involved. 

The solution would be the formation of a professional organization to which professional stock photographer's pay dues that includes a "legal fund." for just such situations.  Until the risk/reward ratio is addressed, this will continue on a routine basis.  Now, even when someone is caught, their files are pulled but the matter ends there.

jsnover

« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2008, 11:58 »
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The other unfortunate truth is that in the short term, the agency has nothing to lose by selling stolen images - they get their money either way, and more if they keep the forfeited earnings.

As I mentioned somewhere else, the person who posted that this is very important to all of us made an important point. Buyers need to have confidence in their purchases. What big corporation is going to stick with micros if there were stories of lawsuits over stolen images floating around? In the long term, it's definitely in the agencies' interests to police this.

And as a 24/7 business, saying that staff will be back on Monday to deal with a problem reported Friday morning is just disgraceful. I'm sure if the servers went down they'd scramble, even on a weekend. So why does stolen content not seem so serious to them. It's shameful.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 12:00 by jsnover »

« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2008, 12:16 »
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Credits from thief should be credited to original author, and not kept by agency.

« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2008, 12:26 »
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They may have already been paid out to the thief.

Credits from thief should be credited to original author, and not kept by agency.

« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2008, 12:37 »
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perhaps. in that case, agency should still pay the "damage fee" to original author.

« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2008, 14:26 »
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Well this guy Bob should at least get some $$, as this I think was the top selling image in the Zillman98 portfolio.

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-1078047-stack-of-one-hundred-dollar-bills-u-s.html

I just went to look at number of sales, and the stolen port under Zillman98 is now suspended, along with user Muhamed2525. I think the number of sales was 13 when I last looked.


jsnover

« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2008, 14:37 »
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The images still show up in searches, but if you click on the image, you get a blank page, and as you noted, if you go to the portfolio page it says that rights have been suspended.

Glad to see that finally someone got through to the senior admins at DT to take some action, versus the "we'll look into it on Monday" from an admin on the DT forums.

« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2008, 14:51 »
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I just dd send a note off to Fotolia with a listing of supporting stuff found yesterday, including te Magic Book image you found.

So whose job is it? Well nobody's yet, except that we should watch each others' backs, and somebody has to do it. This is so widespread it would be very hard to notify every individual who got caught up in this Zillman98 mess.

« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2008, 15:34 »
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Thieves like this are slipping between the cracks because the crack is so large. ......

The solution would be the formation of a professional organization to which professional stock photographer's pay dues that includes a "legal fund." for just such situations.  Until the risk/reward ratio is addressed, this will continue on a routine basis.  Now, even when someone is caught, their files are pulled but the matter ends there.

The crack is not only large but complex since we are dealing with umpteen legal systems and typically cases where the thief and victim are crisscrossing national (if not continental) boundaries ...


« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2008, 16:10 »
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all credit has to go to those of you who even recognized the works of the victims.  also to snurder for risking it to approach directly DT,and Fotolia. i don't think you'd get banned for this. you should get a medal, not a ban  8)

hopefully, once this is exposed it will be a deterrent to future or other current thieves not caught yet. good investigative effort , ppl !
hats off to you all. wow , what  teamwork :)

PaulieWalnuts

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« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2008, 16:53 »
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While I think the sites should be the police, clearly it isn't a priority for them.

Someone here recently reported an image to Shutterstock that they thought was a copy of someone else's image. The  image owner got banned from SS. While the image was questionable, it wasn't an exact copy and the guy didn't deserve to get immediately booted off of Shutterstock. The guy who reported it then felt bad and backpeddled.

If you want to play image police, contact the image owner and leave it up to them to report it to the site(s) or not.

« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2008, 21:20 »
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Buyers need to have confidence in their purchases. What big corporation is going to stick with micros if there were stories of lawsuits over stolen images floating around? In the long term, it's definitely in the agencies' interests to police this.

I agree the should, but what are agencies probably going to do?  Email the buyers explaining this happene, possibly offer a refund or info on the true owners (maybe giving them the $ they should have made).  It seems (or not?) that not all images were already in DT by their rightful creators.  They should check for duplicates (or too similar - don't we get that a lot?), but if those images (or most of them) were not in DT to begin with, how could their reputation be damaged in any way?

Hopefully the situation doesn't happen again, or does not become a common issue.  But we have to face the fact that images are out there and a lot of wrong things may happen.  I can imagine many images that were not purchased at EL being offered as products in Zazzle or Cafepress or whatever.  I said once: I am a Brazilian photographer selling images through USA/CA/Europe agencies to people anywhere in the world.  How can I have any control about what happens to these images?  I know a photographer in SP that found one of her images being used to produce keyholders - with the watermark on it.

Regards,
Adelaide

« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2011, 05:38 »
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Sites like www.tineye.com [nofollow] do not check photos pixel by pixel, rather they use algorithms which will still find 'copied' works.  These works could have been cropped, enhanced, modified or used as as part of another image.  ( I believe the google-image-search tool works in the same way ).

If am not mistaken tineye offer services and other tools specifically for the 'Agencies' needs, and if am not mistaken too they also encourage portfolios/galleries/albums/depositories (call them what you want) to be added to their (ie: tineye's) image-banks.

It might not be the Agencies job to check duplicate/copyright works, however it is in their interest... unless their interests are in making profit from the money from held-back-sales.

« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2011, 06:21 »
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^^^ Ancient thread alert!

lagereek

« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2011, 09:48 »
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CTU.  Jack Bauer.


 

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