Author Topic: Will the Russia/Ukraine war affect sales? (Read 51315 times)

Zero Talent · « **Reply #150 on:** February 27, 2022, 17:39 »

Quote from: SVH on February 27, 2022, 16:49

Well there was. Here is an article (November 2009, so well written before the Ukraine crisis and by a respected German newspaper) stating it clearly:
https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-s-eastward-expansion-did-the-west-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html

Quotes:
"According to the German record of the conversation, which was only recently declassified, Genscher said: "We are aware that NATO membership for a unified Germany raises complicated questions. For us, however, one thing is certain: NATO will not expand to the east." And because the conversion revolved mainly around East Germany, Genscher added explicitly: "As far as the non-expansion of NATO is concerned, this also applies in general.""

"What the US secretary of state said on Feb. 9, 1990 in the magnificent St. Catherine's Hall at the Kremlin is beyond dispute. There would be, in Baker's words, "no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east," provided the Soviets agreed to the NATO membership of a unified Germany. Moscow would think about it, Gorbachev said, but added: "any extension of the zone of NATO is unacceptable."

Obviously, these quotes by the German and the American can be found elsewhere as well.

No, there is nothing in the final treaty signed by Gorbatchev and Baker, nothing about preventing NATO's expansion in other countries. That was something never discussed back then. Remember that the Warsaw Pact was still valid, being dissolved later in July 1991.

The limited "jurisdiction expansion" was part of the discussion during the negotiations, but it was removed from the final treaty. It was only in the "what if" stage.

Baker even said, "I was a bit forward on my skis" because limiting the "jurisdiction expansion" would have meant that NATO would only be allowed to protect half of Germany, and that was absurd.
Helmut Kohl also rejected that limited "jurisdiction expansion" mentioned by his minister of foreign affairs.

The State Department instructed Baker accordingly and this reference was removed, with Russian approval, and all parties signed the final document, based on which NATO did expand its jurisdiction eastwards, in East Germany.
Instead, Russian troops were allowed to remain in East Germany for while and NATO troops moved in only after their departure.

Again, Putin can't go back, distort facts, and claim there was a promise, a promise that's not in the final treaty.
It should make him look stupid, but his propaganda machine is very good at spinning facts.

They should find a better explanation for why he broke The Budapest Memorandum.

Lizard · « **Reply #151 on:** February 27, 2022, 18:34 »

Quote from: thijsdegraaf on February 27, 2022, 14:50

Yes terrible. Before the war we had been to Plitvice Lakes National Park. During the war I thought back to the fact that such a beautiful place was now in a war zone. At the time, it was hard for me to imagine what was going on in the beginning. One Yugoslav area fought against another. Not that one country was conquering another country. That realization came later.

I will try to explain you the two faces of NATO in this example.

So you have 6 countries ( called republics ) forming a Yugoslav union and one being the largest Serbia decided to dominate. So others decided to split. The problem is that in history many Serbs moved to other regions of other countries escaping under Turkish invasions.

So basically you have Croatian regions with population that are mostly Serbs. And they decide to take military action and join those Croatian regions with Serbia supported by the army which was completely in Serbian hands. Big Serbia was their main goal. The war basically started with national army against Croats that had to fight with improvised weapons and sell the national treasures to build an army fast because they had 1/3 of their territory occupied. With minimal or no help from the west Croatia won in 4 years time but the war was devastating.

And than in 1999, exact same situation happens in Serbia just this time their Albanian minority decided to form a country that never existed. A this time NATO reacts in first moments bombing main Serbian infrastructure 100s of miles far away from the problematic zone. Civilian targets, bridges even hospitals. Even if karma is a bitch, and they were our enemies Kosovo as a republic should not exist and its not fair. They lost their ancient territory.

Thats also one thing that pissed Russia because they were supporting Serbia as the west was supporting us. That support was mainly in "good job" not as military or other concrete forms of it.

So there you have it, same scenario, 2 totally different outcomes. That can not be justice.

And war envokes animal in people, yesterdays neighbors and best friends stand of different sides. Even brothers from mixed marriages choose different sides. And media is pumping rage insted to try to stop it and bring some sense in peoples heads.

Lizard · « **Reply #152 on:** February 27, 2022, 18:52 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on February 27, 2022, 14:51

Of course, we all are, except for a few russians trolls who are justifying the invasion, using Putin's propaganda, his sophisms and his falacies.

The question is, what do you propose to do to stop the war and prevent an emboldened Putin to move to his next target, like Moldova, and more.

As hards as it seems the only solution is not to make problem bigger. Not to accept those regions in NATO and not to spread its missiles there is the only possible solution and im 99% sure it going to be resolved like that.

Putin is for now attacking tactically, in gloves, avoiding civil targets and that's how you lose people. If he wanted he would just make hug damage from far away and not risk his men. So he is also respecting the potential western force he could face like they are respecting him in military way. Sure, there are civilian targets but they are obviously not the goal. In Yugoslavia they used to shoot exclusively civil targets 15 hours a day and more to force people to escape and then take the city easily avoiding city fight which bring advantage to the weaker.

Unfortunately, Russia is not only showing muscles, they really have them and if the west wants to avoid huge war with catastrophic consequences Russia will get what they want and if that means no Ukraine in NATO i say let them have it. In other scenario there is a potential scenario of no Ukraine at all. And much more...

Mimi the Cat · « **Reply #153 on:** February 27, 2022, 19:50 »

Quote from: Lizard on February 27, 2022, 13:06

Quote from: Mimi the Cat on February 27, 2022, 12:00

Russia propping up dictators like Sadam and Gaddafi plus dozens of other wannabe genocidal maniacs.

Sadam was US best friend until he didn't decided to try to control his oil prices.

Bin Laden was US agent trained at ST. Andrew.

Point.

Until Saddam decided to invade Kuwait. However all his equipment tanks plane etc was Soviet.

I quote "During the anti-Soviet war Bin Laden and his fighters received American and Saudi funding. Some analysts believe Bin Laden himself had security training from the CIA. ... Throughout the '80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage war against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan."

However that's an unproved point and it was the Pakistani ISS who controlled interactions with the anti soviet mujahideen and Bin Laden had his own money the CIA never had many operatives in the region and had to work with Pakistan's ISS

So do a bit of research.

I see you didn't bother with the rest of what I said

cascoly · « **Reply #154 on:** February 27, 2022, 20:55 »

Quote from: Aks1 on February 27, 2022, 11:56

Why are you replying to me then? People around me are, believe me, sick of your hate as much as I am.

because your hate speech and misinformation needs to be met with more speech - not insults, but demonstrations of your misinformation

cascoly · « **Reply #155 on:** February 27, 2022, 20:56 »

Quote from: SVH on February 27, 2022, 14:00

Quote from: Zero Talent on February 27, 2022, 13:43
Actually, until Kuwait decided to defy Iraq, increase its production and sell cheaper oil. Iraq desperately needed high oil prices, after they spent a fortune fighting Iran.

So, it was Sadam who wanted to control prices of someone else's oil.

He used this as a pretext to invade a smaller country. That's no difderent than Putin invading Ukraine now.

The difference is that, back then, The US and UN had the guts to stand up to Sadam.

No, Saddam was helped by the US because Irak was getting to tight with Iran and Iran was the enemy of the US. The whole Iran-Irak war was supported by the US without making their own hands dirty. The US has a long history of enabling coups and putting puppets in place that served their interest regardless of the population in those countries. France had a large role here as well because of it's major oil interests in the country. Please try to read into this history and understand that all of the world powers are extremely hyopocrite when blaming one and each other.

many of us have lived thru & studied this history for 50+ years of our adult lives. and we've also opposed many of those policies. but 'whataboutism' doesn't mean we (as nations & individuals) can't call out Putin's war crimes

cascoly · « **Reply #156 on:** February 27, 2022, 21:12 »

Quote from: thijsdegraaf on February 27, 2022, 14:50

Yes terrible. Before the war we had been to Plitvice Lakes National Park. During the war I thought back to the fact that such a beautiful place was now in a war zone. At the time, it was hard for me to imagine what was going on in the beginning. One Yugoslav area fought against another. Not that one country was conquering another country. That realization came later.

We traveled thru Syria 20 years ago - besides the horrible human cost of Assad's terror, the country lost major world heritage sites like palmyra.

cascoly · « **Reply #157 on:** February 27, 2022, 21:17 »

Quote from: Lizard on February 27, 2022, 18:34

...
So you have 6 countries ( called republics ) forming a Yugoslav union and one being the largest Serbia decided to dominate. So others decided to split. The problem is that in history many Serbs moved to other regions of other countries escaping under Turkish invasions.

So basically you have Croatian regions with population that are mostly Serbs. And they decide to take military action and join those Croatian regions with Serbia supported by the army which was completely in Serbian hands. Big Serbia was their main goal. The war basically started with national army against Croats that had to fight with improvised weapons and sell the national treasures to build an army fast because they had 1/3 of their territory occupied. With minimal or no help from the west Croatia won in 4 years time but the war was devastating.

And than in 1999, exact same situation happens in Serbia just this time their Albanian minority decided to form a country that never existed. A this time NATO reacts in first moments bombing main Serbian infrastructure 100s of miles far away from the problematic zone. Civilian targets, bridges even hospitals. Even if karma is a bitch, and they were our enemies Kosovo as a republic should not exist and its not fair. They lost their ancient territory.
...

without going all the way back to Kosovo in 1389, the roots of the post communist wars of the 90s go back to the Balkan wars, Serbia's casus belli starting WWI, and the multiple factions in Yugoslavia during WWII

Lizard · « **Reply #158 on:** February 27, 2022, 21:36 »

Quote from: cascoly on February 27, 2022, 21:17

without going all the way back to Kosovo in 1389, the roots of the post communist wars of the 90s go back to the Balkan wars, Serbia's casus belli starting WWI, and the multiple factions in Yugoslavia during WWII

Yes, but they also have tragic history. So many centuries under Turks and Venice and Austria using them as a shield. And living under Turkish empire was no fun. Extremely cruel.

Also in WWII Croatia joined Hitler and took it against the Serbs living there. Even Hitler was disgusted what was done to them in those concentration camps. I dont have a problem to be disgusted of what my people did in the past and be ashamed of that. That was one of the reasons they were afraid when we gained independence and I cant blame them. That was a mental weapon used by Milosevic to spread the anger and put gas on fire. And our president Tudjman was no flower whatsoever. So couple of morons used the history to spread the war. We could have easily split apart in peace like Czechoslovakia. Most of people there are normal like everywhere else. Those few % of psychopaths and insane leaders are the reason for wars.

I really traveled a lot after the war. I seriously didn't have one single problem with a person anywhere in the world. I visited poor and "dangerous" neighborhoods and people were always extremely friendly. Our problem is small amount of brainwashed idiots that just love to hate another group that wake up when the fire is lighted and a majority that just watches them do their thing.

This world is a great place and I hope it will stay our home for loner time despite psychos with fingers on red buttons.

marthamarks · « **Reply #159 on:** February 27, 2022, 23:35 »

Quote from: Lizard on February 27, 2022, 21:36

This world is a great place and I hope it will stay our home for loner time despite psychos with fingers on red buttons.

Amen to that!!!

Lizard · « **Reply #160 on:** February 28, 2022, 00:06 »

Quote from: Aks1 on February 27, 2022, 14:44

The only war criminal are nazi Tudjman and nazi Gotovina, who killed civilians during Oluja.

When you already mentioning n.zi. Lets have a little history lesson here, shell we...

Remember this ? Of course you dont, one could end up in Gulag even mentioning it in the cold north.

So..

Ribbentrop-Molotov Pakt, or Hitler-Stalin pakt how Germans used to call it signed in august 1939. A little treaty on military and economic cooperation where Russia provides Germans with oil cause Brits blocked their supply, and * shared their military technology with Russia in return.

All that spiced with plans which countries will they attack and how will they share them. Like Finland, Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia which Germans are getting and Romania and Poland will be shared and that's exactly what happened

Then in summer of 41. Germany concluded they are doing just fine and that they don't need Russia anymore and started Barbarossa operation in which they attack Russian part of occupied Poland.

And that's a story on how to lose a friend.

But lets not tarnish the name of BIGGEST n.zi oponents and stick to the OFFICIAL story.

So, who is a n.zi now?

Zero Talent · « **Reply #161 on:** February 28, 2022, 09:18 »

Good point.

Let's continue the history lesson with the shameful "percentage agreement" when Churchill, the "war hero", sold in cold blood, the east of Europe to Stalin, a man who murdered millions on a national scale.

In case you can't read Churchill's handwriting:

Romania
-Russia 90%
-The others 10%
Greece
-Great Britain (in accord with USA) 90%
-Russia 10% (he scratched "~~the Others~~" and replaced it with Russia)
Yugoslavia 50-50%
Hungary 50-50%
Bulgaria
-Russia 75%
-The others 25%"

The checkmark is Stalin's.

I have to admit that this is worse than leaving Ukraine on her own devices, in the fight against another Russian tyrant, but fundamentally it's similar to what we see today.

H2O · « **Reply #162 on:** February 28, 2022, 09:44 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on February 28, 2022, 09:18

Good point.

Let's continue the history lesson with the shameful "percentage agreement" when Churchill, the "war hero", sold in cold blood, the east of Europe to Stalin, a man who murdered millions on a national scale.

In case you can't read Churchill's handwriting:

Romania
-Russia 90%
-The others 10%
Greece
-Great Britain (in accord with USA) 90%
-Russia 10% (he scratched "~~the Others~~" and replaced it with Russia)
Yugoslavia 50-50%
Hungary 50-50%
Bulgaria
-Russia 75%
-The others 25%"

The checkmark is Stalin's.

I have to admit that this is worse than leaving Ukraine on her own devices, in the fight with another Russian tyrant, but fundamentally it's similar to what we see today.

You cannot compare now to 80 years ago. that is simply bonkers, in fact that is what Putin is doing now and he is as mad as a box of frogs.

Lets just put this in perspective, times change and the world and societies were very different 80+ years ago, you miss all the nuance, pressures and the pragmatic decisions that were made for reasons at the time.

marthamarks · « **Reply #163 on:** February 28, 2022, 09:51 »

Quote from: H2O on February 28, 2022, 09:44

Lets just put this in perspective, times change and the world and societies were very different 80+ years ago, you miss all the nuance, pressures and the pragmatic decisions that were made for reasons at the time.

You're correct. And that's because Zero doesn't "do" nuance. All he does is bully and demean.

He's pathetic. Not worth arguing with.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #164 on:** February 28, 2022, 09:53 »

Quote from: H2O on February 28, 2022, 09:44

Quote from: Zero Talent on February 28, 2022, 09:18
Good point.

Let's continue the history lesson with the shameful "percentage agreement" when Churchill, the "war hero", sold in cold blood, the east of Europe to Stalin, a man who murdered millions on a national scale.

In case you can't read Churchill's handwriting:

Romania
-Russia 90%
-The others 10%
Greece
-Great Britain (in accord with USA) 90%
-Russia 10% (he scratched "~~the Others~~" and replaced it with Russia)
Yugoslavia 50-50%
Hungary 50-50%
Bulgaria
-Russia 75%
-The others 25%"

The checkmark is Stalin's.

I have to admit that this is worse than leaving Ukraine on her own devices, in the fight with another Russian tyrant, but fundamentally it's similar to what we see today.

You cannot compare now to 80 years ago. that is simply bonkers, in fact that is what Putin is doing now and he is as mad as a box of frogs.

Lets just put this in perspective, times change and the world and societies were very different 80+ years ago, you miss all the nuance, pressures and the pragmatic decisions that were made for reasons at the time.

A wise man once said: "Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It"

... and "strangely", history repeats itself.

Edit: My dear Martha, I know you can produce, some on-topic, decent arguments, instead of cheap ad-hominem and sexist attacks. I know you can do better!
Love

marthamarks · « **Reply #165 on:** February 28, 2022, 09:59 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on February 28, 2022, 09:53

PS. My dear Martha, I know you can produce, some on-topic, decent arguments, instead of cheap ad-hominem attacks. I know you can do better! Love

I have nothing to gain from producing "some on-topic, decent arguments." There's no point. Not worth the bother.

And it is you, darling Zero, who produces cheap ad-hominem attacks.

Pathetic way to deal with fellow human beings. Just pathetic.

I fully intend to keep calling you out.

thijsdegraaf · « **Reply #166 on:** February 28, 2022, 10:00 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on February 28, 2022, 09:53

A wise man once said: "Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It"

History Does Not Repeat Itself, But It Rhymes

Zero Talent · « **Reply #167 on:** February 28, 2022, 10:06 »

Quote from: marthamarks on February 28, 2022, 09:59

Quote from: Zero Talent on February 28, 2022, 09:53
PS. My dear Martha, I know you can produce, some on-topic, decent arguments, instead of cheap ad-hominem attacks. I know you can do better! Love

I have nothing to gain from producing "some on-topic, decent arguments." There's no point. Not worth the bother.

And it is you, darling Zero, who produces cheap ad-hominem attacks.

Pathetic way to deal with fellow human beings. Just pathetic.

I fully intend to keep calling you out.

Yes, indeed: you have nothing now.
But I know you can do better than sexist and ad-hominem attacks.
I believe in you, Martha!

Love!

Zero Talent · « **Reply #168 on:** February 28, 2022, 10:08 »

Quote from: thijsdegraaf on February 28, 2022, 10:00

Quote from: Zero Talent on February 28, 2022, 09:53

A wise man once said: "Those Who Do Not Learn History Are Doomed To Repeat It"

History Does Not Repeat Itself, But It Rhymes

That's a good one, Thijs!
Unfortunately, it also "rhymes" for those who do learn from history.

RalfLiebhold · « **Reply #169 on:** February 28, 2022, 10:24 »

Quote from: H2O on February 28, 2022, 09:44

You cannot compare now to 80 years ago. that is simply bonkers, in fact that is what Putin is doing now and he is as mad as a box of frogs.

Lets just put this in perspective, times change and the world and societies were very different 80+ years ago, you miss all the nuance, pressures and the pragmatic decisions that were made for reasons at the time.

Thank you, that's what I thought the whole time during the little history lesson here.
It makes little sense to dig up the sins of individual countries from the past and then draw conclusions about the present.
We don't burn witches in Europe anymore - and that for good reason

komikmiha · « **Reply #170 on:** February 28, 2022, 11:18 »

Quote from: thijsdegraaf on February 27, 2022, 14:23

Quote from: komikmiha on February 27, 2022, 13:36
Quote from: thijsdegraaf on February 27, 2022, 07:00
Quote from: komikmiha on February 27, 2022, 06:13
Finally Russia have send a clear message: dear Americans, your time as world policeman is over. You have been dropping bombs on Syria, Iraq, Libya, Serbia, Vietnam, Japan, etc., but it stops right now. What you gonna do? Will you crap your pants? Yes you will.

Weird, is not it? Of course you don't agree with that either.

Hadn't Russia dropped a few bombs on Syria too? At hospitals. Oh no, they denied that. And we've never caught them in a lie. A Dutch plane shot out of the sky. Oh no, they denied that too.
Ukraine attacked. Oh no, that was an exercise. Oh no, but it is an army of peace. Which country kills its own countrymen?
Coincidentally, I am now listening to a Dutch journalist, who has lived in Russia for thirty years, wrote that this would not happen and is now in shock that a brother nation is being murdered. like many of his Russians friends are in shock he said.

I've never said Russians are good boys. But, let's look again: Vietnam, Laos, Panama, Yugoslavia, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan. Let's also look, I don0t know, tortures in Guantanamo. Or native Americans genocide. Or Israel. What about two atomic bombs? Are you blind or ignorant? You compare a journalist with 5.000.000 Vietnamese? Really?

Russia has demanded an end to NATO’s eastward expansion and said Ukrainian membership of the US-led Atlantic military alliance was unacceptable.

Can you do it? Thinking I mean.

Now I can say that Afghanistan became especially problematic after the failed Russian invasion in that country and that attacks were organized from Afghanistan on the west (Nine eleven). So there is more to say. But I'm not saying that the West doesn't make mistakes. In the Netherlands (also in America by the way) there were protests against the war in Vietnam.
The problem is that many former Soviet countries want to be independent. But be afraid of Russia and apply for that membership. And when I see what is happening to Ukraine now, I understand.
There is no hatred towards the Russian people from the west. Even now they are not held responsible.
No western country wants to attack Russia.
For years (except for a few countries) Europe has been cutting back on their defenses because they thought there would be no more war with Russia. Even as Russia continued to expand its military.

As we all know, NATO gone too far with its expansion towards Russia. And Russia is not Japan, Serbia, Libya, Iraq or Vietnam. There is no problem, all ex Soviet Union countries are now independent. There is hate from the West, it has always been.

Next conflict will be in Taiwan.

Oh, what about recent bombing of Syria. Yep, Israel did it again. But there is no media coverage.

ShadySue · « **Reply #171 on:** February 28, 2022, 11:25 »

This is rather long, I've only watched the first 25 mins so far, but it could be an interesting insight into Putin's mental state and the background of that mental state.
Caveat: it's just one person's opinion and for some reason the interviewer, a smart medical doctor (whom I've been following for a dissemination of Covid research for months), says nuclear like IIRC Dubya used to. Try to blot it out!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYmt4qu00uc

komikmiha · « **Reply #172 on:** February 28, 2022, 11:25 »

Quote from: cascoly on February 27, 2022, 21:17

Quote from: Lizard on February 27, 2022, 18:34

...
So you have 6 countries ( called republics ) forming a Yugoslav union and one being the largest Serbia decided to dominate. So others decided to split. The problem is that in history many Serbs moved to other regions of other countries escaping under Turkish invasions.

So basically you have Croatian regions with population that are mostly Serbs. And they decide to take military action and join those Croatian regions with Serbia supported by the army which was completely in Serbian hands. Big Serbia was their main goal. The war basically started with national army against Croats that had to fight with improvised weapons and sell the national treasures to build an army fast because they had 1/3 of their territory occupied. With minimal or no help from the west Croatia won in 4 years time but the war was devastating.

And than in 1999, exact same situation happens in Serbia just this time their Albanian minority decided to form a country that never existed. A this time NATO reacts in first moments bombing main Serbian infrastructure 100s of miles far away from the problematic zone. Civilian targets, bridges even hospitals. Even if karma is a bitch, and they were our enemies Kosovo as a republic should not exist and its not fair. They lost their ancient territory.
...

without going all the way back to Kosovo in 1389, the roots of the post communist wars of the 90s go back to the Balkan wars, Serbia's casus belli starting WWI, and the multiple factions in Yugoslavia during WWII

You skipped history lesson in school? WWI started Austro-Hungarian empire. Try to learn sometimes. It really helps.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #173 on:** February 28, 2022, 11:26 »

Quote from: komikmiha on February 28, 2022, 11:18

As we all know, NATO gone too far with its expansion towards Russia. And Russia is not Japan, Serbia, Libya, Iraq or Vietnam. There is no problem, all ex Soviet Union countries are now independent. There is hate from the West, it has always been.

No, WE don't know that.

It's not NATO, it's the democratic free will of those countries, who freely opted and voted to join an alliance able to ensure their independence.

And the independence of former Soviet republics is only real for those ex-soviet republics that are today protected by NATO, like the Baltic countries.

Georgia's independence has been trampled by Russian tanks, the Russian army is still occupying Moldovan territory, Belarus's "independence" is a joke.

And we can all see what's going on with Ukraine's independence...

#russiantrollalert

komikmiha · « **Reply #174 on:** February 28, 2022, 11:28 »

So much about western media. It's coronavirus 2.0 when it comes to lies and manipulations.

MicrostockGroup Sponsors

Author Topic: Will the Russia/Ukraine war affect sales? (Read 51315 times)

Zero Talent

Lizard

Lizard

Mimi the Cat

cascoly

cascoly

cascoly

cascoly

Lizard

marthamarks

Lizard

Zero Talent

H2O

marthamarks

Zero Talent

marthamarks

thijsdegraaf

Zero Talent

Zero Talent

RalfLiebhold

komikmiha

ShadySue

komikmiha

Zero Talent

komikmiha

Related Topics

Sponsors

Microstock Poll Results

Sponsors