We've got a mix of contributors on the forum...those that just submit to micros, those that submit to traditional agencies (whether it's traditional RF or traditional RM), we've got full time folks, and we've got part time folks.  There's a TON of negativity here and elsewhere (which has me scratching my head as to why people keep doing this but that's a different topic).

So lets hear it...if a newb joined the forum today, what would you tell him/her with relation to the question in the poll?

Let's keep this about stock in general - let's not turn this thread into a pissing match about which agency is better or that agency that has cut commissions.

Making a few hundred a month - no problem (which is a living wage in much of the world). Making a few thousand a month might be more of a problem. There are a lot of factors to consider. Starting from no equipment is a big hurdle too. If you already have a computer, internet, and dslr you could poke your toe in the water with little investment. If you don't have access to any of these things it is going to cost a fair bit just to try it. If you had a bit of skill and actually put in full time effort I think it would still be possible to make a decent return (eventually - the first year or 2 might be painful). I don't know that you'd be better off flipping burgers, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were entry level positions that would have a higher return. One of the advantages of microstock is that you can do it at all hours of the day and even if nobody is hiring in your area. I wouldn't recommend relying entirely on microstock though.

I am guessing that things are not going to get easier in the future though, supply is growing faster than demand.

While we are going through a phase of commission cuts, people would have to be crazy to rely on microstock as their only source of income.  I'm far too dependant on my microstock income and it's not something I can recommend.  If sites decide that cutting commissions is detrimental to their profits, it might become more stable.  It looks like cutting commissions has been the wrong strategy but will the sites have the courage to admit they were wrong or are they going to carry on with this policy that appears to be making microstock unsustainable for lots of us?

If you're in the top 5% of contributors and you don't need a lot to live on, things might be different but I think there's only a small percentage of people that are going to be able to live off their micrtostock earnings unless things change for the better.

"Would You Recommend Microstock To Someone As Their Sole Source of Income?"

Yes, if you can make enough for it to satisfy your financial needs.

No. Not so much because of the financial situation. More because of the unreliability of the Agencies. You never know what tomorrow happens. If the situation would be stable: yes.

yes, if you are a single boy or girl living with your parents with no rent and bills to pay and you only need your income for beer, concert tickets and low-cost flights

and if you can mantain this situations for at least the next 3 years while you build up your port

Deleted...

Although I make my FT living from microstock, I voted for flipping cheeseburgers (actually, you don't flip them once you have added the cheese ).

LOL....have you noticed McDonald's doesn't sell burgers without cheese (at least in the U.S.)?

If the OPs surname is Stock then yes I'd say ...

Quote from: lisafx on September 30, 2011, 13:51

Although I make my FT living from microstock, I voted for flipping cheeseburgers (actually, you don't flip them once you have added the cheese ).

LOL....have you noticed McDonald's doesn't sell burgers without cheese (at least in the U.S.)?

Taste has to come from somewhere.

The US has exported many wonderful things to the rest of the world.  McDonalds in not one of them

Back to the OP, only if Microstock agency site training has as it's last skill to learn being word perfect in "Would you like fries with that?".  (apologies to Fine Arts students - plagerised from the last area of study in your syllabus)

I gave up eating beef 6 or 7 years ago

Blasphemy!

On topic: I think the only way to make a living out of microstock starting brand new today is to try and become a image factory. Otherwise no chance. Or Maybe in Burundi somewhere.

I think it's possible to make a full-time living from microstock, but you would need money to live on for several years while you're in the process.  If it were my sole source of income, I would definitely be in hurtin' status!

Very true Laurin which is why you don't see many photos in my port  

I can't be an image factory there's no way in *bleep* I could sit in front of this computer and churn out hundreds to thousands of images a month.  I'm a group of one so that's not going to happen.  For me, micro is my full time job (after mother) and it pays my bills and sometimes I have extra to just play with.  It's definitely hard to try to make the money that you want to in this business due to lack of equipment and resources but that doesn't stop me or hinder me from trying my very best to create images that buyers need/want.  And soon I will be able to get the equipment that I need to make my work a little easier.

I would advise someone today with Unique talent to pursue real commercial Photography and go get clients and not even think about Penny stock. The kids I talk to coming Out of Brooks think were all fools. Exception is of course are the ones that have an incredible work ethic and saw the light 7/8 years ago and went for the "Stocky" stuff By the thousands. The new kids coming up aren't very Impressed.

Good for them. I would Hope they go back to creating something instead of how many  Pics they can do to feed the hungry beast . Im sorry But some us us old timers are like old Boy bands that are boring now. Look around guys there's some fresh stuff being submitted everyday. So would I suggest this?........ I don't to my students. If they love Image making I would rather they learn Image making, The the art of Photography instead of what they can maybe sell for 38 cents. You asked and Thats my Opinion.

Sole source of Income? maybe a supplement to client work.  6 years ago? yes.

10% of commercial Photography is actually taking the pictures. I find Most have no clue about the other 90%. And they better no matter how good they are.

I have about 15 people bookmarked That are the future of this business. And are amazing and fresh. I reviewed for 3+ years and we always had a running Joke that if we saw another batch of handsome business people we were gonna throw up, it ain't new guys, Some of us did it 30 years ago for real money. The new kids are breaking all the rules. good for them if that's what they want.

Learn Photography first and learn to shoot every subject not just a isolated apple.  Thats my advice.

Well said Laurin....and I agree 100%.  But I still wonder, is it an addiction?  Why are people still doing it and why do we hear the continual whining about it.  You go to Flickr or to 500px or even Google+ these days and people are gaga over images and working to improve themselves and help each other (what I remember from the microstock business back in 2005 and 2006).  These days, you've either got the person celebrating 100 sales (at $30) or the person complaining about an agency "taking advantage or them" (not that the agency forced them to submit images or anything)...and I still miss the forum posts on Shutterstock and other places where people spoke their mind...I remember the comments once about a model with serious acne and RJMiz posting a composite of the moon lander on the craters of that model's face.  Sure, microstock has never been friendly to all....but how did we all suddenly become victims?

I don't get it....and I'm playing in both the micro and trad areas for various reasons.

Just to add a positive note to this thread....

I went full time in MS in March this year and so far have no complaints. However, I should add that there are a few prerequisites:

A sizeable investment in equipment
A solid business plan
Substantial savings to support yourself while you build your portfolio to the point where you make a reasonable income (for me this is around 2 years).
Lots of hard work!

I should also add that I live in Sydney, Australia where the cost of living is fairly high.

Quote from: Ed on September 30, 2011, 10:36

  There's a TON of negativity here and elsewhere (which has me scratching my head as to why people keep doing this but that's a different topic).

Not surprising. Anonymity allows posters to vent and rant about perceived injustices. Not many go to forums to sing praises or brag about how well they are doing.

Actually I am doing REALLY well!!!

But that would be seen as bragging... Seems like forums are for Venters and Braggers lol!

Hey some of us (speaking of illustrators more than photographers) are alone in a dark basement getting grilled by a PC monitor... We need to socialize somewhere

Jaysus NO!

I would say grow into it organically, if you find it is paying enough to cover your costs then make the switch if you want to. At that point you don't need advice, you know what your figures tell you. Just be sure to understand you will probably have to diversify into something else further down the line. Everything is constantly changing and you have to be ready the change, too.

I like that comment . For me it's worth the try. Get your sleeves up and start working on it a few months. See how much you can produce, and evaluate the results by sending your images to the main stock agencies. After a hunder or two you will be able to get a prorata (average) of how much you can make per image, per month (giving a % margin of better and lesser months). Then you will know about how many images you would need to sustain you. I think submitting images to as many different subjects and categories as possible will give you a wider range of clients for your images.

I am an exception in stock as after 10 months I managed to grow a sizable portfolio and I would be able to stop working and live entirely on stock (but low entirely on stock but would be possible). This is not due to talent but a business opportunity I saw and worked well in stock, which in turn gives me more time to create illustrations and learn more photography.

I think every dream is achievable if you are passionate enough about and are not scared to spend the hours... Hours... building toward it. Being passionate helps not counting the hours

Good luck!

No. Because they do not post anywhere so people can steal there stuff and ideas. Smart. But I will say most are very good Photographers AND very good with Graphics. What some would call "Element Submitters" Kind of like how some very good designers use our images in composites to tell a story of a concept or idea.

 One of the biggest challenges for most of us that have larger portfolios is coming up with unique stuff that there isn't a gazillion of already. I personally hate it when I repeat myself. Hence so many LCV rejections folks get. it isn't about being LCV it's about how much does it take to have enough of something. Being unique and standing away from the crowd so your work stands out and the test of time is really very basic. it's about shooting what turns "YOU" on instead of what you think or perceive will sell. Not one person I've ever met from Fine art to Bottom stock Knows that answer. No reviewer, nor site.  Im not a big fan of LCV rejections for anyone unless it's very Obvious. Unfortunately most are fairly obvious because People just don't search before they shoot to see what there up against.

To many think All they need is some lights, a white background and some friends to pose. Better think again. Thats 2005 thinking.


Waking up
Brushing teeth
Making Breakfast
Putting on makeup, combing hair
Shaving, man combing hair
Getting dressed, choosing clothes
Travelling to work, or school
Working or being at school
Having a business or school lunch
Making a phone call, cell phone, home or desk phone
Reading
Exercising, sports, after school activities
Doing homework
Preparing dinner
Having dinner
Leisure activities, hobbies
Friendship, family love
Activities with pets
Cleaning
Home improvement
Shopping
Getting in bed, * in the kids






Other people ideas



Teamwork
Musicians/singers
Feeling of freedom
Camping
Disabled people doing everyday activities
People writing
Homeless (sometimes difficult to get model releases)
Mum making school lunches
Crowds at events
Close-ups of hands doing something

- Products

Garden tools
Woodworking Tools
Kitchen utensils
Cell-phones
Books
Magazines

- Communications

Telephones
Cell-phones
Cables
Power poles
Telephone lines

- Technology

Computers
Circuits
I-pods
Stereo�s
DVD�s



- Transportation

Automobiles
Aircraft
Boats
Horse-drawn vehicles
Trucks
Hot air balloons

- People with Disabilities

Deaf
Mute
Blind
Wheelchair bound
Caregivers

- Casino, poker, dice, card games
- Fire extinguishers, firemen/police at work, fire engines
- People in a cultural/diversity setting
- Concepts (like: trust, happiness, sadness, loneliness
wealth, health, balance, success, fear, pride, joy,
sexuality, surprise, addiction, stress, commerce, etc.,)
- Seasonal pictures
- Christmas, Easter, Valentines, hallowe�en etc.,
- Healthcare and nursing
- Medical
- Fitness and sports

COUPLES
Cooking together
Hanging around non-sexually - doing everyday things
In bed having fun, being intimate/massage/kissing
Looking bored/having relationship problems/concerned/fighting
Getting ready in the morning- getting dressed, brushing teeth together
Driving together
Eating breakfast/dinner at home
Eating out
Watching TV
Looking at a computer together
Leisure- at the beach, in a hotel, on a balcony, skiing (non-cheesy travel)
Overall hugging, holding hands, mostly happy/laughing but some serious variations of each shot are be useful too
Couples with pets

FAMILIES
Parents getting kids ready for school- dressing, making lunches, brushing teeth
Eating breakfast/dinner together at home- should be vibrant and full of energy but bright and clean
On vacation- packing up the minivan, going camping, on the beach, at the pool
Mom and kid, dad and kid- having fun
Natural interaction all together in the living room, kitchen, watching TV
Activities- board games, video games, outdoor sports- catch, hula hoops, riding bicycles
Tension in family during teen years
Positive scenarios during teen years
Families cooking together and making healthy food choices - preparing fruits + vegetables
Series of images - family going through the day
Halloween
"Lush, magical holiday photography"
Family with dog or cat on carpet/rug
Family finances
Busy families heading out the door
Divorce situations
Families having fun outdoors
Family shopping
Mom + daughter arguing over shopping/fashion
Families using technology
cool kids and capturing their day-to-days, but here are some thoughts based on what buyers said they need.

Watching tv
Hanging out with friends
Couples - hanging out, kissing, breaking up
Playing video games
Watching movies

Watching tv
Hanging out with friends
Couples - hanging out, kissing, breaking up
Playing video games
Watching movies
Eating pizza
Doing homework
Spending time with parents/family - either negatively or positively
Skating boarding
Biking, Surfing, Soccer, Football - any athletic activity, especially informal with friends
Playing in park
Shopping in mall or in urban environment
Driving with friends
Teen driving that is safety related
Learning to drive
In dorm room
On college campus
Reading a book
Talking on cell phone
Getting ready for school
Eating with friends - at home or in a restaurant
Walking a dog
Going to a party
Going to a club
Dancing
Listening to ipod
On computer
In classroom
Study group
Painting and drawing
Taking a photograph
Drinking
Going to prom
Graduation
Packing to go to college
Volunteer work
Public speaking
On beach with friends
Kissing
Holding hands
Getting yelled at by parents
Teens in any kinds of family situations
Sleeping
At concert/indie concert settings
Playing an instrument
Putting on makeup
On a date/dating
Young couple in love
Watching a movie in a theater
Depression
Suicide
Drug abuse
School dances
Trendy, cool, hip kids across or within all ethnicities hanging out
Sub-cultures: music, surf/beach, skate
Teens in backyard settings
Teens in swimming pools
College kids on spring break
Teen boys hiking or camping




Diverse kids in the classroom doing various things - have a shot from behind of kids raising their hands - make sure they are having fun/enthusiastic
Rules in the classroom/Enforcing rules in school
Looking up and thinking
Doing art projects
Science projects (worms, plants, beakers)
Learning outside the classroom - in nature, exploring, looking at maps, looking at the sky, looking through microscope at bug outside
At the chalkboard, writing or doing math
Child or kids talking tteacher or in classroom with teacher (try using a non-white teacher!)
Doing homework - alone, with each other, with parents
Kids in the library, reading, or on the computer
Walking or riding bike w/ backpack on (alone and in groups)
Waiting for bus w/ backpack
On the bus (looking happy and sad/alone)
Modern technology in classrooms - flat screen monitors, white board
In computer labs
Surfing the web at home

Kids Playing
Pictures of kids hanging out on their own or in an after-school program
Doing sports: track, baseball, soccer, cheering for other kids (girls doing sports)
Doing sports and wearing proper safety equipment (helmets, wrist guards etc.)
Boys and girls playing sports together
On swingsets
Playing indoors with toys, legos, trains
Playing videgames
Being bullies
Organizations: in Girl or Boy Scouts, Boys' Choir etc.
Older kids walking down the street together
At the beach
Tween girls dancing and playing
Halloween
Birthday parties
Children with disabilities playing with other kids
In backyard settings
Babies
Modern beautiful shots of non-white and non-black babies - other ethnicities
Teething
Reaching for lightswitch, various other exploration poses
Being diapered
Preparing for bed
Child care - babies and nannies, other people whare not immediate family
With grandparents or older siblings
Tasteful nursing shots
Breast pumping - very current topic
Baby health issues - grabbing at ear, immunizations where you really see the doctor giving the shot while mom holds baby on lap
Series of a baby developing over time: from first month through the first year
Ethnically diverse twins
Close ups of body parts: eyes, ears, toes, teeth
Moms with friends: pushing strollers together on a walk
Moms and dads together, walking with babies in slings
Babies and moms having intimate moments - showing their connection, not tickling, naction - an 'un-moment' - she just woke him up and put him in her bed - beautiful moments
Toddlers
Health photos of any sort - smiling doctor looking at mom, kids whare sick (cold/flu), in doctors office or hospital, drippy noses, pink eye, staph infections, diaper rash, birth marks, doctor scoping kid's ear, aches and pains, kids holding shoulders, kids in casts, first aid - descriptive, specific pictures
Potty training - no butts, no nudity
Safety - reaching for lightswitch, cup on counter, toddler looking out window at water, playgrounds, bruised knees, mom backing up in driveway with bike behind the car
Green living - babies modern cloth diapers (i.e., no safety pins)
Progressive families - Dads helping and at play groups, moms working from home
Modern pictures - baby in car seat in SUV, modern shopping pictures
Every day chores: mom doing laundry with baby nearby, mundane stuff is badly needed
Mom dropping kid off at daycare
Kids with special needs - Autism, Down's Syndrome
1st birthday parties, other parties (trend now is smaller parties - not tons of people in a room)
Parents traveling with baby and/or toddlers - road trip or by plane
Without moms - learning to be independent
Learning teat and drink by themselves
Toddlers in wintertime

ohh gimme a break, I'v been an art director for almost 10 years, with my background I'v never ever seen anything in microstock that even had a hint of surprise or novelty. I was just curious on what is considered the type mentioned by someone like you. Most of the stuff you guys consider revolutionary is generally just a 'rumination' of things we in the ad industry have seen a decade ago countless times... and I also guess the shots are public anyway if they are up for sale : )

you are a curious person, can we know more about you? your posts are "insane", do you do any kind of photography, any stock? I don�t understand where you are heading but sure it does look fun

Quote from: lthn on October 04, 2011, 20:46

ohh gimme a break, I'v been an art director for almost 10 years, with my background I'v never ever seen anything in microstock that even had a hint of surprise or novelty. I was just curious on what is considered the type mentioned by someone like you. Most of the stuff you guys consider revolutionary is generally just a 'rumination' of things we in the ad industry have seen a decade ago countless times... and I also guess the shots are public anyway if they are up for sale : )

you are a curious person, can we know more about you? your posts are "insane", do you do any kind of photography, any stock? I don�t understand where you are heading but sure it does look fun

I make some of the most sensible posts around here, becaouse I'm not a fanboy of anything (except nature's beauty)

Rinder wins longest post of the year award, and at one time I thought I was in the running. No way, it's the winner, hands down.  

Here's the way it is, I now collect Social Security, I own a small distribution business (industrial), I work weekends at the race track(s), I also shoot racing for magazines/websites, (travel eats up any profits, but I enjoy it) which gets uploaded to Alamy when I get off my lazy butt, and last I dabble in Microstock.

That's current in order of income. Try that again, potentially six income sources and Micro is the last, but I do it, because I like it! I stop the car and shoot pictures of things because I LIKE IT, not because I may ever sell or even upload the shots. They might get to my backup drive, and so far this year I may have printed 3-6 shots. Yes some end up on Alamy, especially racing, some end up on Micro, food and fun things, but the income from selling photos is less than I'd make working at an hourly day job. And oh by the way, I'm quite happy with that.

Only thing I have in common with Rinder and a few others here, is I used to teach photojournalism as an assistant and ran the lab/darkroom. I have more experience and background in how things work, than art training. (isn't that obvious after all these years)

I don't need to be anonymous, the agencies do a fine job and when they screw up, I don't feel like living in fear of retaliation. How's that for a job when you are under their thumb and in fear or reprisals. If people here are feeling abused, it's like a bad marriage, get out, don't keep coming back for more abuse. If not, they STFU, no one is forcing you to sell on Micro or take the crap that some agencies hand out. If people have to be anonymous to speak their mind, then there's something wrong with those agencies. Get away and don't live in fear of their abuse or threats. (I'm talking about people who imagine that some agencies come and read and take names and watch what we write, seems this is just the one that has warned us and actually does it.)

Last Sunday I saw this on the way home:



Non- seller, NCV, (that's not low, it's NO   ) so what? Should I have not taken the 18 shots used to make the composite or spent the hour to edit it. It's huge by the way at full resolution. Life isn't always about Commercial Value, sometimes it's about looking at a pretty field of corn at Sunset? Yes? No? I mean most everyone here has a good eye and talent and see things as beautiful. So why does it have to come down to staged and stilted, only in it for the money, 100% of the time?

If it's only about making money, for most people, go do something else. Micro isn't what it used to be and it's not going to be what it once was. Stop waiting for the second coming of MicroStock, it's history now. What you see is what you get. Micro Payment Stock. Was there any false advertising or deception when it was introduced as that in the first place?

Remember the top 5% of the world's Microstock shooters are here! OK considering the income numbers and attitudes, what does that tell you? It's a long uphill battle and even the best have to work very hard to make a decent income. Someone new should step back and see, this is not easy money. Yes it's possible, but at this stage of the game, collections are full, competition is experienced hungry and fierce, building a collection for two years might be building a collection for four years because of the way the market has changed?

Hey look, 56% of the people here, who are advanced and skilled and living/working Microstock say, NO! and I think that's a hint that it's good advise!

I agree with you, you need to be passionate and have a love for the work. Money comes after.

This can be said about any kind of work. If you get up in the morning and WANT to get to work, because you like it, then your life will be easier than if every morning you NEED (or Feel that you need) to go to work because it pays well

See!  listen a bit to Rinderart here!  there is another world out there, outside stock-photography, many would say a "real world"  where photography actually still counts. I would also suggest a true talent to pursue commercial freelance photography. I have done it for 20 odd years, still doing it. In spite of what we are led to believe or reading in forums, etc, there is still a huge demand for day-rate photographers, skillful guys.
There are still tons of agencies, industries, corporations, etc, that hires photographers for specific jobs or talents. Stock, is just one avenue of this entire industry. Look at the Fashion industry! that house possibly the highest paid photgraphers in the world, many of these guys dont even know what stock means. Photojournalism, newspapers, magazines, is another.

Personally, I would not have been able to supply or upload half of my content if it wasnt for commissioned work, I mean, how . do you get in to a forbidden access place unless you have business there? getting releases and everything. Ofcourse, thats the way proper stock-photographers used to work, back in the beginning and before micros, almost everyone was also a commercial photographer.

Micros, have opend and paved the way for every single one in the entire world with a camera, to have a go,  for better or worse, I would say. Hence, we have billions of dupes from here to the outer galaxy.

Would I recomend Micro? I agree with Lisa on this one. Not starting out today, its impossible, but as a serious hobby, well thats what the majority are doing anyway, so why not.

Probably one of the best "REAL" posts I've ever read on this site.

Double Post

Hi Ed,

 It was 23 years ago that one of the masters of stock photography told my photography class that " There is no way you will make it in stock the door is sealed shut by the professionals that run the show so you are better off trying something other than stock ". Boy, am I glad I blew that opinion off. It does take time a good business plan and extra income ( or a sugar momma ) until you start making profit that will sustain you and your new business but it is never to late it just depends on how you go about it and how determined you are. When I sarted in stock there was no Yuri Arcurs and look where he is today. The photographer that shared his opinion with me over two decades ago is now dead and I have made a great living from the industry even though he was sure there was no way in. Never say never, there is always a way  

Best,
Jonathan

If folks were still shooting film there would be 95% less submitters now also.

^ obviously.  And if folks were still riding horses, there'd be less people on the roads.  So?

Another "Real" answer. and the List was from an old friend who posted it on SS a few years ago.

I don't disagree at all, good reading and advise.

Lets see 1968, I was either loading trucks at UPS, (during the Summer) working at the book store and working in the photo lab, shooting college sports as editor on the campus newspaper. But funny thing was I wanted to transfer to a college that had a photography program and the JSchool Dept. head where I was said, the market was flooded and newspapers were closing, magazines going out of business, people with 20 years experience were looking for work.

Odd, I'm hearing the same thing now 40 years later? 

I'm pretty happy to be shooting digital and not film. Anyone want some, I have film in the freezer.

Microstock is wide open for someone who is bright and hard working and willing to invest the time, but like anything else, the climb up the ladder is full of people who are already ahead, and making it more difficult.

Quote from: rinderart on October 05, 2011, 19:40

If folks were still shooting film there would be 95% less submitters now also. I got $500 in 1968 for a stock Photo in 1968 dollars [about $2000] there were very few guys doing stock and the only categories were landscape,travel and flowers. shots with people were done on assignment.

Thats right!  In 1985, when I joined Stones and later Image-Bank, shots were selling from between 500-1500 dollars. That was plenty according to them days rates. Not only that,  if the editing and QC,  was anywhere near what it used to be in them days,  well,  I bet at least 80% of todays material would be thrown away.

However thats ofcourse a natural progression and nothing derrogative since we are supplying to micro ourselves but you are absoloutely correct in your statement.

From what I've seen of the 1980s stock, if the QC was anything like it is on some of the micros, 80% of that would have been thrown away, too. Much of the old stuff was not good. But tastes/fashions/business models change.

If you are looking to make some easy money i don't think is possible anymore.You need at least one year to buid up a good portofolio

RacePhoto:  Rinder might have easily had the longest post, but ironically, in your post complaining about how he put you out of the running, you failed to notice that you easily had the WIDEST post of the year 

If it was 1985, then my crayon drawings of He-Man would never get accepted.