Author Topic: MotionCam Pro - RAW video on a smartphone (Read 1835 times)

Zero Talent · « **on:** March 02, 2024, 18:35 »

I just discovered this amazing app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.motioncam.pro

It is able to shoot full sensor (4080 x 3060) 60fps RAW videos on my S24 Ultra, with all 4 lenses, without dropping any frames.
What was only possible with expensive pro cameras, is now with me all the time.

It is true that the files are large (>10 GB for 30 seconds), but the idea is to capture all the information available on the sensor while in the field and worry about color grading and recoding at home.

Here are a couple of videos highlighting the massive quality difference between stock camera apps and MCP:

https://youtu.be/AjkchOsifNg
https://youtu.be/O5fnGDR4i9w

It opens up many editing options, not only to those familiar with Davinci Resolve or Premiere Pro, but also to photographers who may only be familiar with Lightroom (editing a video the same way time-lapses are edited, because each frame can be exported as a RAW DNG from the RAW footage).

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2024, 02:59 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 02, 2024, 18:35

It is able to shoot full sensor (4080 x 3060) 60fps RAW videos on my S24 Ultra, with all 4 lenses, without dropping any frames.
It is true that the files are large (>10 GB for 30 seconds),

1. DCI 4K is 4096x2160. Therefore, 4080 is not enough.
2. 10 GB in 30 seconds, are you kidding me? Is someone paying you to advertise this application?
Buy yourself a Panasonic camera, it records video in RAW format and has a 10-bit sensor, and is inexpensive. How many bits are there in your sensor on your phone? And what is the size of your phone's sensor?
Have you tried writing v-log, s-log to your cameras? This is enough to achieve extended dynamic range. I saw experiments of people who compared v-log with RAW, they did not see a strong difference.
You are a strange person, Zero Talent, who would even write raw video on a weak phone sensor? Yes, there’s no point in writing even a v-log for an 8-bit sensor.
Those videos on YouTube are complete nonsense.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2024, 09:32 »

The whole idea of a camera on a phone is that you have it with you all the time. And then you want to get the best quality out of it. It is not meant to replace pro cameras.

The primary concern with stock camera applications is their tendency to excessively process and compress both photographs and videos captured using them.

Fortunately, third-party applications demonstrate superior capabilities compared to those provided by smartphone manufacturers, as evidenced by the provided video clips.

Regardless of the hardware used (be it a phone or a professional camera), lossless RAW videos are superior to standard H.264 videos (and even superior to lossy 10-bit log videos) in the same way lossless RAW photos are superior to lossy JPEGs: because they encompass the entire dynamic range of the sensor (10-bits depth on the phone), without discarding any information.

For your analysis, see below a separate comparison utilizing a Panasonic camera:

https://youtu.be/4dIZhupRN_o

Zero Talent · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2024, 10:16 »

One more thing: the app has also the capability to produce 10-bit HLG HDR, 10-bit LOG, and even encode 10-bit ProRes files, addressing concerns regarding the excessive storage requirements of RAW video.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2024, 12:13 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 03, 2024, 09:32

The primary concern with stock camera applications is their tendency to excessively process and compress both photographs and videos captured using them.

The Blackmagic Camera application writes everything normally, it can also write in H.265. Bitrate is normal.
There are other applications too.
I have no complaints about the main smartphone application, because a smartphone is a small sensor and, at best, has 8 bits. Trying to squeeze super quality out of a phone is ridiculous.

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 03, 2024, 09:32

Regardless of the hardware used (be it a phone or a professional camera), lossless RAW videos are superior to standard H.264 videos (and even superior to lossy 10-bit log videos) in the same way lossless RAW photos are superior to lossy JPEGs: because they encompass the entire dynamic range of the sensor (10-bits depth on the phone), without discarding any information.

Where have you seen phones with a 10-bit sensor? What is the sensor size on your phone? How many bits?
There is such a thing as sufficient quality. So, for most professionals, log videos are enough. Shooting raw has certain advantages, but not everyone needs them.

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 03, 2024, 09:32

For your analysis, see below a separate comparison utilizing a Panasonic camera:
https://youtu.be/4dIZhupRN_o

100% lie there.

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 03, 2024, 10:16

One more thing: the app has also the capability to produce 10-bit HLG HDR, 10-bit LOG, and even encode 10-bit ProRes files, addressing concerns regarding the excessive storage requirements of RAW video.

We have already discussed this before. You didn't like the idea of converting 8 bit video to 10 bit prores. Now I see you don't mind converting any low quality to prores.

The iPhone records in Apple Log. If you feel like messing around with 8-bit video in Apple Log, you can give it a try. But I see the point in Log only on 10-bit sensors and no lower. Shooting in raw on your phone is a complete perversion.
It’s better to install a normal application and record videos with normal bitrates.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2024, 14:06 »

Please ensure you have the most up-to-date information before making such claims.

Fact: S24 Ultra is able to output 10-bit video, even with the stock camera app. The same goes for your iPhone if you have a fairly recent model.

If you don't believe what the info tool or your editing software is telling you, you can test the luminosity hex values for white and black pixels in a RAW video with high dynamic range and see with your own eyes: they range between #0000 and #04FF, in other words, 10-bits.

https://source.android.com/docs/core/camera/10-bit-camera-output

Fact: BlackMagic app is only available for iPhones, but it is NOT recording lossless RAW video, only ProRes 10-bit which is a lossy compression and it's not "full sensor". As they mention they are only able to produce: "industry standard 10-bit Apple ProRes files up to 4K"

Of course, I do not support the notion of employing deceptive practices such as encoding 8-bit content within a 10-bit container.

Fact: MCP allows for the capture of RAW 10-bit full-sensor videos at 60fps on S24Ultra.
This provides users with greater flexibility in color grading and editing, as well as the ability to determine the encoding method at a later stage.
It is important to note that 10-bit content maintains more of its RAW quality when stored in a 10-bit container, and obviously loses quality when squeezed into a smaller 8-bit container (especially when heavy lossy compression is also involved).

Here is another benchmark comparing MCP running on a 10-bit Android vs a BlackMagic Pocket Cinema Camera (which can shoot 4K 12-bit RAW video)

https://youtu.be/4u_Zg23EoOA.

Not bad at all for a device that's always with you!

stoker2014 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2024, 15:07 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 03, 2024, 14:06

Fact: S24 Ultra is able to output 10-bit video, even with the stock camera app.

Is your phone's sensor 1/1.3? Good luck in shooting raw video.

To begin with, at least try LOG.

Place a screenshot from MediaInfo here that your video from your phone is 10 bits.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2024, 15:21 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 03, 2024, 15:07

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 03, 2024, 14:06
Fact: S24 Ultra is able to output 10-bit video, even with the stock camera app.

Is your phone's sensor 1/1.3? Good luck in shooting raw video.

To begin with, at least try LOG.

Place a screenshot from MediaInfo here that your video from your phone is 10 bits.

It is important to note that all phones and cameras capture images in RAW format, as this is the native output of the sensor. The RAW sensor output is then processed and encoded in RAM before being saved.
Some manufacturers are cropping the image captured by the sensor to reduce the amount of data collected. Better cameras can capture the full sensor data and then reduce the resolution through pixel binning to achieve the desired resolution, at a better dynamic range.

The challenge that all devices face is the ability to store this large amount of data before the next frame is captured. This is why encoding is necessary. However, the latest generation of smartphones has significantly improved read/write speeds, allowing them to save all RAW information without any loss, before the next frame is due.

Another reason for reducing the file size is to facilitate the transfer of these files over the internet, but that's a different story.

In the case of the S24U, the main camera sensor is 1/1.3 inches in size.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2024, 15:31 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 02, 2024, 18:35

It is true that the files are large (>10 GB for 30 seconds)

I'm sure there are few people who would be interested in this. Usually smart people just play with LOG.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2024, 15:32 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 03, 2024, 15:21

In the case of the S24U, the main camera sensor is 1/1.3 inches in size.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2024, 15:39 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 03, 2024, 15:31

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 02, 2024, 18:35
It is true that the files are large (>10 GB for 30 seconds)

I'm sure there are few people who would be interested in this. Usually smart people just play with LOG.

It appears that you lack experience in capturing and post-processing time-lapse sequences using RAW photos.
If you had engaged in such activities, you would be aware of the substantial data volumes involved, often reaching 100 GB.

I already mentioned that shooting and processing RAW video can be pretty similar to the time-lapse process if you want it to be.

PS. PetaPixel has an article on it:
https://petapixel.com/2021/12/03/motioncam-app-is-the-first-to-enable-raw-video-on-android-devices/

"Finally, though, Android is seeing an update that goes beyond what is possible on an iPhone. RAW video is considered to be what allows filmmakers to capture as much detail in a scene as possible and will fully maximize a sensor’s dynamic range" ....

stoker2014 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2024, 17:08 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 03, 2024, 15:39

It appears that you lack experience in capturing and post-processing time-lapse sequences using RAW photos.
If you had engaged in such activities, you would be aware of the substantial data volumes involved, often reaching 100 GB.

That's not the point.
There is no point in doing anything at all on such a small sensor that you have and that is in other phones. It's a waste of time.
If for time-lapse you can somehow argue for shooting in raw, then for video there is LOG, which takes up little space and allows you to improve the dynamic range (for 10-bit video).
I listened to many professionals who compared log with RAW, but for themselves they saw no point in shooting in RAW. TV studios may shoot in raw, but not on smartphones.
Therefore, this application of yours is useless. Better install an application that will allow you to shoot in LOG.
But if you still shoot in RAW on your phone, post a test somewhere, the video was shot in RAW and in LOG. I'm sure no one will see the difference if the color correction is correct.

Do you know how shot to LOG correctly? Do you record your videos in a log?

Zero Talent · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2024, 18:06 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 03, 2024, 17:08

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 03, 2024, 15:39
It appears that you lack experience in capturing and post-processing time-lapse sequences using RAW photos.
If you had engaged in such activities, you would be aware of the substantial data volumes involved, often reaching 100 GB.
That's not the point.
There is no point in doing anything at all on such a small sensor that you have and that is in other phones. It's a waste of time.
If for time-lapse you can somehow argue for shooting in raw, then for video there is LOG, which takes up little space and allows you to improve the dynamic range (for 10-bit video).
I listened to many professionals who compared log with RAW, but for themselves they saw no point in shooting in RAW. TV studios may shoot in raw, but not on smartphones.
Therefore, this application of yours is useless. Better install an application that will allow you to shoot in LOG.
But if you still shoot in RAW on your phone, post a test somewhere, the video was shot in RAW and in LOG. I'm sure no one will see the difference if the color correction is correct.

Do you know how shot to LOG correctly? Do you record your videos in a log?

You don't get it. If you have access to all RAW frames, you don't need to encode them in LOG anymore, and then edit and encode them again, externally.

You can directly edit your RAW frames, just as you would edit a RAW photo (if you wish), thereby avoiding unnecessary lossy encoding steps, while taking advantage of tools like Topaz AI, etc.
Besides, I already posted in-app screenshots above, showing that the app can also shoot LOG if you prefer to edit LOG files. You can also export the RAW video into a LOG format and use the process you are familiar with: https://www.microstockgroup.com/general-stock-video/motioncam-pro-raw-video-on-a-smartphone/msg599817/#msg599817

Anyway, if I am unable to convince you, maybe these two promotional videos for the S23 Ultra and Pixel 7 Pro will do:
https://youtu.be/u1v4mCK5Tqk?si=VwX_bjAZRPW9Uxz1
https://youtu.be/SyeS_xYxCLI?si=OYKPUqhjvDPdRpta

... and their behind-the-scenes clips will help you understand why this app is relevant for those who want the best out of their device:

https://youtu.be/fP8LC4b11oY?si=hQXhJWzjSCIPN9sY
https://youtu.be/4_GhKg4VThY?si=CORIFI29L7XJfqxr
Let me explain why: the filmmakers hired by Samsung and Google are using the MCP app to promote their respective phones. Because they know what's best, while you don't.

If you used MCP, you will recognize it in the screenshots attached below.

Side note: It is very deceiving to see the MCP used to film another Samsung phone shooting with the stock app in JPEG mode.

Even more: here is even a small movie shot on an S22 Ultra running MCP: https://youtu.be/yWdIcBxW4mc?si=QMIlm0F0b4gn4zIH

... and the behind scenes clip where the 3rd screenshot is taken from:
https://youtu.be/g7SeOg1e1Tg?si=QxeAyw9eT6kZdNGs

It appears that you may need to conduct additional research and update your knowledge base to ensure it is current and accurate.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 04, 2024, 03:31 »

Zero Talent, I understand that your main job is advertising various products.

You don’t care what you advertise, the app or Biden, the main thing is who pays.

But you still haven't answered my question. The videos that you have uploaded to stock in recent years were shot in LOG or a standard in-camera profile?

As for the application that you are advertising. I can assume that it does not shoot video in RAW, but rather shoots a lot of photos in RAW, which then need to be converted to video. As for direct recording of this application in the log, it will be an 8-bit video of no value.
Perhaps you will find people willing to shoot in RAW with this application, if people want to receive 10 GB files in 30 seconds.

But it definitely won’t be me.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2024, 08:12 »

1. Almost all my videos were shot in LOG over 10 bits. Not sure why this matters, but now you know.
2. The S24U, S23U, S22U, etc... all are able to shoot 10-bit video. Do your homework.
3. The MCP is able to shoot RAW footage in the mcraw format. Individual DNG frames can be exported from it. It can also shoot directly to log, if RAW takes up too much space for some. Do your homework.

Listen, I'm not "advertising" anything.
I simply informed the forum contributors about this great app I discovered a few weeks ago, which can dramatically improve the quality of footage shot with modern Android phones. I am still learning how to make the best use of it myself.

I am not here to educate or convince you of anything.
It's too bad you see a conspiracy in all facts contradicting your limited knowledge and narrow view of the world.

Keep your blinders on and keep doing things as you wish.

Good luck, and you're welcome..

stoker2014 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 04, 2024, 08:42 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 08:12

2. The S24U, S23U, S22U, etc... all are able to shoot 10-bit video. Do your homework.

Provide a link to the specifications of your phone, where it says that your sensor can shoot 10-bit video.

Usually people who want to squeeze something out of their phone shoot in prores and log.
But I’ll say right away that the phone must be very expensive and good.
Shooting in raw on your phone is already too much.

So, you have a phone, share the tests, how it takes video by default, how in log, how in raw. Post your results. In the meantime, in this thread you provide links to an advertising videos, which may not be true.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 04, 2024, 08:45 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 08:12

1. Almost all my videos were shot in LOG over 10 bits. Not sure why this matters, but now you know.

This is interesting to me. How do you determine the correct exposure compensation, and why do you always shoot in log? And if the scene is well lit.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #17 on:** March 04, 2024, 09:15 »

I am not here to prove you anything. Do your own research.

I am not here to educate you on how to shoot LOG.
Do your own research.

The best advice I can give you is to have an open mind, but I already know it's futile advice because you see conspiracies in all evidence contradicting your deep-rooted beliefs.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2024, 10:00 »

It is clear that there will be no links to 10 bits on your phone.

I'm not sure you know how to shoot a log video correctly, judging by what you wrote in this topic.

By constantly linking to promotional videos, you are misleading people. This forum is not for advertising, but for publishing your own results.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2024, 10:33 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 10:00

It is clear that there will be no links to 10 bits on your phone.

I'm not sure you know how to shoot a log video correctly, judging by what you wrote in this topic.

By constantly linking to promotional videos, you are misleading people. This forum is not for advertising, but for publishing your own results.

Please be aware that you are mistaken on all three points:

1. The S24U is capable of recording 10-bit video. Even the previous generations can do that.
2. The majority of my videos are shot in 10-bit log. It is not overly complicated.
3. In my opinion, the majority of forum contributors demonstrate a willingness to embrace new ideas and engage in experimentation.

In contrast, your approach appears to be characterized by a resistance to change and a reluctance to acquire new knowledge. Additionally, you have the tendency to mix-up conspiracy theories with reality.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2024, 10:49 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 10:33

1. The S24U is capable of recording 10-bit video.

Will there be evidence other than words?
I read the characteristics of your phone, I did not see such information there.

I discuss what interests me. And I became interested in how you can shoot professional video with a small sensor.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #21 on:** March 04, 2024, 10:53 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 10:49

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 10:33
1. The S24U is capable of recording 10-bit video.
Will there be evidence other than words?
I read the characteristics of your phone, I did not see such information there.

I discuss what interests me. And I became interested in how you can shoot professional video with a small sensor.

Please refer to the attached screenshot for evidence. As previously mentioned, the size of the sensor is not relevant in this context. The objective is to optimize the capabilities of the available resources.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 04, 2024, 10:56 »

Zero Talent, do you shoot video in 4032 x 3008 resolution?

Zero Talent · « **Reply #23 on:** March 04, 2024, 10:58 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 10:56

Zero Talent, do you shoot video in 4032 x 3008 resolution?

I have already mentioned that MCP has the capability to utilize the full sensor if that is your preference. However, it appears that you are not receptive to this information.

16:9 full sensor width, below:

stoker2014 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 04, 2024, 11:01 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 10:58

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 10:56
Zero Talent, do you shoot video in 4032 x 3008 resolution?
I have already mentioned that MCP has the capability to utilize the full sensor if that is your preference. However, it appears that you are not receptive to this information.

So, the MCP application took a video on your phone and wrote that the video is 10 bits. Right? We only have 10 bit videos shot in this application. Before this app, you didn't know that your camera shoots 10-bit video? This is not written anywhere.

Ok, let's assume that I believed you. This means you can try shooting in LOG on your phone. That's all that interested me in this topic.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #25 on:** March 04, 2024, 11:15 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 11:01

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 10:58
Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 10:56
Zero Talent, do you shoot video in 4032 x 3008 resolution?
I have already mentioned that MCP has the capability to utilize the full sensor if that is your preference. However, it appears that you are not receptive to this information.
So, the MCP application took a video on your phone and wrote that the video is 10 bits. Right? We only have 10 bit videos shot in this application. Before this app, you didn't know that your camera shoots 10-bit video? This is not written anywhere.

Ok, let's assume that I believed you. This means you can try shooting in LOG on your phone. That's all that interested me in this topic.

The screenshots are made with a 3rd party app: MediaInfo.

Please be aware that this information is not new to me or to many others who are interested in modern technologies.
FYI, for several years, Samsung Galaxy devices, as well as other contemporary Android and iPhones, have been capable of capturing 10-bit video.

It is unfortunate that you only learned this today. However, it is better late than never, correct? You're welcome!
Below is an example of such a video shot with the stock camera app.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 04, 2024, 11:24 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 11:15

FYI, for several years, Samsung Galaxy devices, as well as other contemporary Android and iPhones, have been capable of capturing 10-bit video.

My iPhone shoots 8-bit video, although it was purchased in the fall. Yes, the Blackmagic Camera application can record video in prores on it, but I'm not sure that this prores is obtained from a 10-bit source.
In general, I have no more questions for you.
You wrote a few months ago that you can’t shoot video in raw because it requires expensive cameras. Now you will write raw video to your phone if LOG is not suitable for you. You might even see a difference.

Good luck!

Zero Talent · « **Reply #27 on:** March 04, 2024, 11:34 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 11:24

My iPhone shoots 8-bit video, although it was purchased in the fall. Yes, the Blackmagic Camera application can record video in prores on it, but I'm not sure that this prores is obtained from a 10-bit source.

If your iPhone is that recent, then you can enable ProRes and shoot 10-bit videos.

Now you learned another new thing.
You're welcome!

stoker2014 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 04, 2024, 11:37 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 11:34

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 11:24
My iPhone shoots 8-bit video, although it was purchased in the fall. Yes, the Blackmagic Camera application can record video in prores on it, but I'm not sure that this prores is obtained from a 10-bit source.
If your iPhone is that recent, then you can enable ProRes and shoot 10-bit videos.
Now you learned another new thing.
You're welcome!

Is your application installed on iPhones

?

I don't need it, I already have the Blackmagic Camera app and have a choice of prores.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #29 on:** March 04, 2024, 11:42 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 11:37

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 11:34
Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 11:24
My iPhone shoots 8-bit video, although it was purchased in the fall. Yes, the Blackmagic Camera application can record video in prores on it, but I'm not sure that this prores is obtained from a 10-bit source.
If your iPhone is that recent, then you can enable ProRes and shoot 10-bit videos.
Now you learned another new thing.
You're welcome!
Is your application installed on iPhones ?

I don't need it, I already have the Blackmagic Camera app and have a choice of prores.

No. MCP is only working on Android phones.

The screenshot I added above is from Apple support:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/109041

And now you know that you can also shoot 10-bit videos on your iPhone!

You're welcome!

stoker2014 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 04, 2024, 11:47 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 11:42

MCP is only working on Android phones.

Let me know when it will be available for iPhones. I might be interested in this application for recording video to LOG.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #31 on:** March 04, 2024, 12:24 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on March 04, 2024, 11:47

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 04, 2024, 11:42
MCP is only working on Android phones.
Let me know when it will be available for iPhones. I might be interested in this application for recording video to LOG.

I doubt it will ever be available on iPhones, since Apple is rather strict about allowing low level access to 3rd party apps, but I may be wrong...

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