Author Topic: Shutterstock sales growth year to year not impressive for the last few months. (Read 40028 times)

helloitsme · « **on:** August 27, 2016, 07:04 »

Despite constantly adding new video and photo contents, the year to year growth last few months hasn't been impressive. I don't know if it's just me or their growth as a company is slowing down. Maybe they are selling contents too cheap? I have no idea.

alno · « **Reply #1 on:** August 27, 2016, 07:18 »

I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors

The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

Mantis · « **Reply #2 on:** August 27, 2016, 07:37 »

Making my month now requires multiple big SOD's and video sales. Overall number of downloads is way down, OD's are down, the whole tamale. This has been generally going on for the last year. Monthly swings can be as much as $500 for me on SS.

As a general statement, this whole industry is on the back side of the S-curve for contributors and those same agencies have figured out how to squeeze so much out of the contributor that they have demotivated many of us from taking the time and making the effort to shoot creative content. I have not set up my studio for still work for two years. I have zip motivation. I've been thinking of shooting more in the RM area but that kind of work takes a long time to sell and is not consistent income. So I have been focusing on video and animations. Even still, that is hard to make up for the losses from images if you aren't edging on pro-level content or niche.

Shelma1 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 27, 2016, 08:56 »

Supply is outpacing demand.

helloitsme · « **Reply #4 on:** August 27, 2016, 09:05 »

Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 27, 2016, 07:18

I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

I will never sell anything at Videohive. It's too dirt cheap!! It's horrible for contributors!!

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2016, 21:59 »

Quote from: helloitsme on August 27, 2016, 09:05

Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 27, 2016, 07:18
I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

I will never sell anything at Videohive. It's too dirt cheap!! It's horrible for contributors!!

So if you got loads of sales and made about $2K a month there, that would be really horrible?

helloitsme · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2016, 00:26 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 27, 2016, 21:59

Quote from: helloitsme on August 27, 2016, 09:05
Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 27, 2016, 07:18
I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

I will never sell anything at Videohive. It's too dirt cheap!! It's horrible for contributors!!

So if you got loads of sales and made about $2K a month there, that would be really horrible?

Yes, it is very horrible. People now can buy the same clips for $10 instead of $70+. It's bad. Simple math.

Justanotherphotographer · « **Reply #7 on:** August 28, 2016, 02:59 »

As always happens when a site sells dirt cheap a fee people join early and clean up on volume. Everyone else hears about it and signs up, the volume dries up. Other sites have to sell lower to compete. The race to the bottom continues.

alno · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2016, 03:08 »

Quote from: helloitsme on August 28, 2016, 00:26

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 27, 2016, 21:59
Quote from: helloitsme on August 27, 2016, 09:05
Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 27, 2016, 07:18
I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

I will never sell anything at Videohive. It's too dirt cheap!! It's horrible for contributors!!

So if you got loads of sales and made about $2K a month there, that would be really horrible?

Yes, it is very horrible. People now can buy the same clips for $10 instead of $70+. It's bad. Simple math.

I may sound like stupid girl, but the number of people who can afford clip for $8 or $25 for 4K is... Well, it's everybody. Any person with youtube channel and 1+ subscribers. Millions of potential customers are better than thousands. McDonald's will ever outperform any 3 Michelin stars restaurant in terms of revenue. Simple math.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 28, 2016, 03:16 »

A Michelin starred chef earns more than a McDonalds chip fryer...

alno · « **Reply #10 on:** August 28, 2016, 03:38 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on August 28, 2016, 03:16

A Michelin starred chef earns more than a McDonalds chip fryer...

I suppose we all here don't look like hired staff

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #11 on:** August 28, 2016, 04:21 »

Quote from: helloitsme on August 28, 2016, 00:26

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 27, 2016, 21:59
Quote from: helloitsme on August 27, 2016, 09:05
Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 27, 2016, 07:18
I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

I will never sell anything at Videohive. It's too dirt cheap!! It's horrible for contributors!!

So if you got loads of sales and made about $2K a month there, that would be really horrible?

Yes, it is very horrible. People now can buy the same clips for $10 instead of $70+. It's bad. Simple math.

So it's only the price your works sells for that's important to you? The volume of sales doesn't matter as long as they sell for a high price?

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #12 on:** August 28, 2016, 04:25 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on August 28, 2016, 03:16

A Michelin starred chef earns more than a McDonalds chip fryer...

I think for the purpose of the analogy, we're looking at the turnover of the restaurants, rather than how much their staff are paid.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 28, 2016, 04:26 »

[

So it's only the price your works sells for that's important to you? The volume of sales doesn't matter as long as they sell for a high price?
[/quote] To me its total income from my portfolio that matters. Its nice to think someone thinks my work is worth $$$$ but in the end its total income that pays the bills.

Tror · « **Reply #14 on:** August 28, 2016, 04:28 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 04:21

Quote from: helloitsme on August 28, 2016, 00:26
Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 27, 2016, 21:59
Quote from: helloitsme on August 27, 2016, 09:05
Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 27, 2016, 07:18
I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

I will never sell anything at Videohive. It's too dirt cheap!! It's horrible for contributors!!

So if you got loads of sales and made about $2K a month there, that would be really horrible?

Yes, it is very horrible. People now can buy the same clips for $10 instead of $70+. It's bad. Simple math.

So it's only the price your works sells for that's important to you? The volume of sales doesn't matter as long as they sell for a high price?

The point is that you see good sales NOW on videohive because they undercut the market. Once everybody submits their stuff there your sales volume (not revenue or Profit, just the amount of files you sell) will be the same or maybe a bit more the amount of todays established sites (lets say three times more due to possible new markets, youtubes, low budget folks etc.?) .

However, once this was done the market is ruined and your revenue is minimal.

Beyond the pricing issue Videohive has. I simply think Envato is not a respectable company. For almost any EU resident it is almost impossible to work with them since they break about 6 laws with every invoice they issue in my name.

I do not respect them and do not understand why people support companies like this. I hope the IRS closes them down as soon as possible.

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #15 on:** August 28, 2016, 04:35 »

Quote from: Justanotherphotographer on August 28, 2016, 02:59

As always happens when a site sells dirt cheap a fee people join early and clean up on volume. Everyone else hears about it and signs up, the volume dries up. Other sites have to sell lower to compete. The race to the bottom continues.

That's not entirely true though, is it? Envato have been around for ten years... the same as Pond5, just a year less than Fotolia and three years less than Shutterstock.

So all these other sites have had ten years in which to start 'selling lower to compete', and I've not seen any $8 clips on Shutterstock, and they seem to be doing ok.

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #16 on:** August 28, 2016, 04:40 »

Quote from: Tror on August 28, 2016, 04:28

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 04:21
Quote from: helloitsme on August 28, 2016, 00:26
Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 27, 2016, 21:59
Quote from: helloitsme on August 27, 2016, 09:05
Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 27, 2016, 07:18
I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

I will never sell anything at Videohive. It's too dirt cheap!! It's horrible for contributors!!

So if you got loads of sales and made about $2K a month there, that would be really horrible?

Yes, it is very horrible. People now can buy the same clips for $10 instead of $70+. It's bad. Simple math.

So it's only the price your works sells for that's important to you? The volume of sales doesn't matter as long as they sell for a high price?

The point is that you see good sales NOW on videohive because they undercut the market. Once everybody submits their stuff there your sales volume (not revenue or Profit, just the amount of files you sell) will be the same or maybe a bit more the amount of todays established sites (lets say three times more due to possible new markets, youtubes, low budget folks etc.?) .

However, once this was done the market is ruined and your revenue is minimal.

Beyond the pricing issue Videohive has. I simply think Envato is not a respectable company. For almost any EU resident it is almost impossible to work with them since they break about 6 laws with every invoice they issue in my name.

I do not respect them and do not understand why people support companies like this. I hope the IRS closes them down as soon as possible.

You know they've been around for ten by years, right? So they're pretty established already. I've been there for seven, and apart from a few very minor exceptions, my sales have increased every single month.

Not sure about the laws they're breaking... from what I can tell, they're one if the few companies that don play by the rules when it comes to VAT collection and remission, and handling US withholding tax. I'm no international tax expert though!

Tror · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2016, 05:44 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 04:40

Quote from: Tror on August 28, 2016, 04:28
Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 04:21
Quote from: helloitsme on August 28, 2016, 00:26
Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 27, 2016, 21:59
Quote from: helloitsme on August 27, 2016, 09:05
Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 27, 2016, 07:18
I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

I will never sell anything at Videohive. It's too dirt cheap!! It's horrible for contributors!!

So if you got loads of sales and made about $2K a month there, that would be really horrible?

Yes, it is very horrible. People now can buy the same clips for $10 instead of $70+. It's bad. Simple math.

So it's only the price your works sells for that's important to you? The volume of sales doesn't matter as long as they sell for a high price?

The point is that you see good sales NOW on videohive because they undercut the market. Once everybody submits their stuff there your sales volume (not revenue or Profit, just the amount of files you sell) will be the same or maybe a bit more the amount of todays established sites (lets say three times more due to possible new markets, youtubes, low budget folks etc.?) .

However, once this was done the market is ruined and your revenue is minimal.

Beyond the pricing issue Videohive has. I simply think Envato is not a respectable company. For almost any EU resident it is almost impossible to work with them since they break about 6 laws with every invoice they issue in my name.

I do not respect them and do not understand why people support companies like this. I hope the IRS closes them down as soon as possible.

You know they've been around for ten by years, right? So they're pretty established already. I've been there for seven, and apart from a few very minor exceptions, my sales have increased every single month.

Not sure about the laws they're breaking... from what I can tell, they're one if the few companies that don play by the rules when it comes to VAT collection and remission, and handling US withholding tax. I'm no international tax expert though!

In most countries of the world invocies have to follow certain rules and regulations e.g. they have to be numbered, electronically transmitted to the tax office, have a certain format or things like this. Since envato issues invoices on our names and we have very limited possibilities to influence that it will get most likely many people in trouble. Leave alone that they issue invoices with the SALES price, not our comission. My tax office for example needs to verify a payment method and see the actual transaction for a business expense which es impossible with envato. Why deal with such a mess?

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2016, 06:10 »

And do all the other stock sites provide you with invoices that have all these things?

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2016, 06:39 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on August 28, 2016, 04:26

[

So it's only the price your works sells for that's important to you? The volume of sales doesn't matter as long as they sell for a high price?

To me its total income from my portfolio that matters. Its nice to think someone thinks my work is worth $$$$ but in the end its total income that pays the bills.
[/quote]

That's the way I see it as well. 100% royalties on $200 clips would be lovely, but not if you only sell one a month. Likewise, 10% royalties on $10 clips would be pretty terrible... but not if you're selling 2000 a month.

stockVid · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2016, 06:54 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 27, 2016, 21:59

Quote from: helloitsme on August 27, 2016, 09:05
Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 27, 2016, 07:18
I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

I will never sell anything at Videohive. It's too dirt cheap!! It's horrible for contributors!!

So if you got loads of sales and made about $2K a month there, that would be really horrible?

Yes.

Tror · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2016, 07:11 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 06:10

And do all the other stock sites provide you with invoices that have all these things?

You do not understand I think. Other Stock sites do not have to issue invoices on my name since they sell to the client, not me. But yes, all the other agencies work clean and transparent.

The normal procedure is that if I receive a payment form any other Agency or site I issue a invoice according to the local legislation to them and thats it :-)

Not Envato. They are the only ones I work with which chose to be NOT the seller of your content.

The point is that according to Envato you do NOT receive revenue from Envato, but rather from the client you sell to. Envato issues invoices ON YOUR BEHALF to the BUYER who buys at Envato. YOU earn according to Envato the full sales price although you receive only a fracture of that and if ANY tax office ANYWHERE checks one of those invoices YOU have to explain the sums, money, transactions, VAT declarations, expenses etc.

Please check the Envato forums for further information.

If you are from the countries where this practise does not bring any conflict with your local legistlation you can be happy and continue. If you are from a country which obliges you to follow a certain format with invoices, or if you need to declare your income at all you might be in trouble since Envato reports THEIR commission and Profit as YOUR Income to the Tax office and YOU have to deduct this Commission later as your expense.

Now, we all know that conflicting numbers are, especially if you state your income lower than expected, is a red flag for any tax office :-)

Finally it can be said that their practise is extremely shady and they seem to avoid all sorts of obligations for themselves at the expense of bringing the contributors in all potentially troublesome situations.

I get your point of making money through them, but leaving alone the whole pricing subject, personally I do not want to work with people like this. Profit or not. Sales or not. I believe in honesty and self-respect. Period.

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #22 on:** August 28, 2016, 07:32 »

"The normal procedure is that if I receive a payment form any other Agency or site I issue a invoice according to the local legislation to them and thats it :-)"

Why can't you do that with Envato? I'm pretty sure most tax authorities don't care what some website says they do or don't do... as long as everyone is paying the taxes they should be. Envato may say you are the seller, but in the eyes of the tax authorities (well, the UK ones anyway) they are the seller. That's one of the reasons they are charging and remitting VAT. They wouldn't do that if they weren't the seller, or if there was no need for them to do so.

And I'm pretty sure something would have been done about it by now, if they were doing something shady. What's the benefit to Envato of doing it this way? Surely any financial gains could be easily obtained by a drop in commissions rather than by implementing a complicated, shady and illegal tax scheme. Isn't it more likely that they've looked into it and are doing all this because they're supposed to?

Tror · « **Reply #23 on:** August 28, 2016, 07:39 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 07:32

Why can't you do that with Envato?

Because Envato says that you did not sell to them but to the client. And issues a invoice for each sale on your name. And reports their income as yours to the tax office, later virtually charge you with their commission you never received.

There had been long and huge threads here and on the Envato boards regarding that. Please read through them :-)

Mantis · « **Reply #24 on:** August 28, 2016, 08:20 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 04:21

Quote from: helloitsme on August 28, 2016, 00:26
Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 27, 2016, 21:59
Quote from: helloitsme on August 27, 2016, 09:05
Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 27, 2016, 07:18
I guess the main reason is we are all making too much content too fast and dividing almost the same pie for growing number of contributors The number of big and medium producers who can afford $79 for HD is unlikely growing accordingly. Videohive may be a some sort of solution. I noticed there were sales from the countries which never appeared on my Shutterstock sales map (China, Russia) and the typical buyer profile there is surely different.

I will never sell anything at Videohive. It's too dirt cheap!! It's horrible for contributors!!

So if you got loads of sales and made about $2K a month there, that would be really horrible?

Yes, it is very horrible. People now can buy the same clips for $10 instead of $70+. It's bad. Simple math.

So it's only the price your works sells for that's important to you? The volume of sales doesn't matter as long as they sell for a high price?

It's obviously both we want. But price erosion is what brought micro stock down to its knees for suppliers. Now we are having the same discussions for video, some embracing cheap seat prices and others wanting to sustain fair prices. In the longer term (maybe a few years) we will then be seeing similar shenanigans on sub pricing, cheap bundles, further commission erosion, less quality content (need I say 50,000 videos of someone smoking pot), a race for more volume, less quality just to keep up with the cuts agencies build into their models, to the point where video is now for those who only wish to make a few extra bucks a month, and those in countries where a small dollar amount is significant for them. The rest of those who are trying to make a living at it might as well go work at McDonalds to supplement their MS income. So I understand both points; yours is instant gratification and helloitsme is long term sustainability and steady income. All agencies are doing is competing by chopping pricing, it has nothing to do with people paying $79 for HD. Bloggers and such don't need $79 HD, they can pay much less for a web version, so that argument is noted at best. Where in all of this discussion is the quality of ones work addressed? There seems to be a tone that content does not matter, only price. That is short sighted thinking. I'm with helloitsme, I won't upload to VH.

trek · « **Reply #25 on:** August 28, 2016, 09:37 »

Envato's decision to 1099 us for their portion of sales is why I no longer upload to Envato.

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #26 on:** August 28, 2016, 12:16 »

I've read every single thread on the forums, and asked the same questions there that I'm asking here, and I still can't get a straight answer on how a company claiming that they do or don't do something has any bearing on my obligations as a tax payer. I must be missing something.

I earn X so I report X which means I have to pay X. Why would that be different with Envato as opposed Shutterstock or Fotolia or Pond5, for example?

Mantis · « **Reply #27 on:** August 28, 2016, 15:18 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 12:16

I've read every single thread on the forums, and asked the same questions there that I'm asking here, and I still can't get a straight answer on how a company claiming that they do or don't do something has any bearing on my obligations as a tax payer. I must be missing something.

I earn X so I report X which means I have to pay X. Why would that be different with Envato as opposed Shutterstock or Fotolia or Pond5, for example?

I believe it's the inconvenience of how they report income. They report the whole sale and you have to then deduct their "fee"on your taxes. Thus you get 1099'd on a fake amount and have to adjust for it on your taxes. And by the way, they claim to be a marketplace and not an agent. They take a fee but act as an agency. Crooked.

increasingdifficulty · « **Reply #28 on:** August 28, 2016, 15:27 »

It is a bit of a mess but 1099 forms are only an issue for US authors. In many countries you report what you get into your bank account.

They have individuals making millions (yes, millions) of US dollars there per year so surely if it was that problematic it would be changed. The ones making the most are US authors.

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #29 on:** August 28, 2016, 21:15 »

Right, I think I get it. In the UK you just report what you report, no questions asked. Well, you'll sometimes get audited to check you're not making stuff up and you actually have documented evidence of your income... but it sounds like in the US, everything has to be accounted for. I.e. they match the incomings of one party with the outgoings of another.

I guess it makes sense from a balancing the books kind of thing.

It must get complicated though... I mean how far down does it go? If I have a receipt for a bunch of champagne for entertaining clients, will they then check with the nightclub's tax returns to make sure those bottles were sold at the price I have on the receipt and that the club are paying the right tax on them? Sounds a bit of a pain.

Mantis · « **Reply #30 on:** August 28, 2016, 21:33 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 21:15

Right, I think I get it. In the UK you just report what you report, no questions asked. Well, you'll sometimes get audited to check you're not making stuff up and you actually have documented evidence of your income... but it sounds like in the US, everything has to be accounted for. I.e. they match the incomings of one party with the outgoings of another.

I guess it makes sense from a balancing the books kind of thing.

It must get complicated though... I mean how far down does it go? If I have a receipt for a bunch of champagne for entertaining clients, will they then check with the nightclub's tax returns to make sure those bottles were sold at the price I have on the receipt and that the club are paying the right tax on them? Sounds a bit of a pain.

Unless there is major bucks involved, they are just verifying your receipts. I just got audited last week and lost. A 1099 was updated by an agency a while back but they never sent me the new one. I had to pay 1100 in additional taxes and penalty and interest. This is why the envanto thing is so messed up. The 1099 and the "I wanna have my cake and eat it too" accounting system they have is probably illegal.

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #31 on:** August 28, 2016, 22:58 »

Why doesn't somebody just drop a quick email to the IRS and ask them to check if it's all aboveboard?

alno · « **Reply #32 on:** August 29, 2016, 02:41 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 22:58

Why doesn't somebody just drop a quick email to the IRS and ask them to check if it's all aboveboard?

Isn't IRS US only government agency? Even if it's all not aboveboard, Envato is Australian company...

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #33 on:** August 29, 2016, 03:20 »

I think the issue is mainly with the US side of it though... as US authors are having the most trouble with it, and all the withholding tax malarkey is due to the IRS. They are an Australian company, but they've set up in the US, which is where all their sales and payments are now handled... that's why it's subject to withholding tax.

Daryl Ray · « **Reply #34 on:** August 29, 2016, 04:56 »

It's just an endless circle of these contributors having no comprehension of why undercutting is so terribly bad for everyone in this business and those with knowledge and experience trying hard to spell it out for them. I've seen it explained in plain English every which way a dozen times, and they still can't figure it out. They think, based on narrow personal experience, that selling for cheap but at volume is a good thing, solely because they make what they feel like is decent money at the moment. But that does not mean it's the right thing to do, nor that it's any good for anyone but whatever vampire company they blindly support. The resistance to having some self respect and respect for everyone else in this business is stunning. They refuse to consider the future or anything beyond the fleeting satisfaction of pennies stacking up to dollars at the expense of cheapening the perceived value of what we do. Meanwhile, completely oblivious to the fact they'd be making more money if they actually listened.

Such deeply flawed logic and a stubborn inability to listen to plain reason will never fail to amaze me.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 29, 2016, 05:19 »

Maybe they are just dealing with the world as it is rather than they would like it to be?

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #36 on:** August 29, 2016, 05:22 »

So you're saying that removing all of my portfolio from Envato, will result in my sales tripling everywhere else?

Daryl Ray · « **Reply #37 on:** August 29, 2016, 05:59 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 29, 2016, 05:22

So you're saying that removing all of my portfolio from Envato, will result in my sales tripling everywhere else?

This will never happen because too many of you have no self respect, little confidence in what you do, and no understanding of what "value" means, but it's quite simple:

Step 1: Stop bottom feeding and supporting companies that bottom feed and/or take too much %.
Step 2: Perceived value of product increases. Companies that gouge our earnings and bottom feed, fail.
Step 3: Profit.

Quote from: Pauws99 on August 29, 2016, 05:19

Maybe they are just dealing with the world as it is rather than they would like it to be?

They are helping perpetuate a world of devaluing our collective products and encouraging low contributor %. Those of us that live in a world where food, housing, etc. needs to be paid for with real money understand why it's crucial to retain value in our work. You all must rely on someone else for financial support, have little experience with actual physical work, and probably also don't believe movies and music have any value because you can download them for free on a torrent. Is any of this making sense yet? Of course it isn't.

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #38 on:** August 29, 2016, 06:21 »

Maybe it would strengthen your argument if you didn't make sweeping generalisations regarding people you know nothing about.

Daryl Ray · « **Reply #39 on:** August 29, 2016, 06:38 »

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 29, 2016, 06:21

Maybe it would strengthen your argument if you didn't make sweeping generalisations regarding people you know nothing about.

The fact that you have nothing of substance to say, only to criticize my approach, strengthens my argument. My statements are based off what you have openly revealed: That you don't care about anything but the short term return on cheaply priced product. It's only logical to deduct that someone without understanding of the value of their own work, or digital content in general, has a lack of a sense of personal responsibility and experience in the world.

alno · « **Reply #40 on:** August 29, 2016, 06:45 »

Quote from: Daryl Ray on August 29, 2016, 05:59

This will never happen because too many of you have no self respect, little confidence in what you do, and no understanding of what "value" means

Living in a country full of pricey lawers and having fourteen digit external debt is not the same to having self respect and knowing what "value" means.

Justanotherphotographer · « **Reply #41 on:** August 29, 2016, 07:39 »

It's the "tragedy of the commons". You can make more money by selling dirt cheap because you clean up on volume. But when everyone does it you have no more volume. The sales are divided between too many people and any growth in the market never makes up for it. We have seen it over and over again.

The problem is that for the first few people that get in there early they could make more money than they would otherwise, especially if their content isn't able to compete with everyone else at a higher price. The pain is suffered by everyone, the benefit only by a few. It's something like a pyramid scheme in that way.

cathyslife · « **Reply #42 on:** August 29, 2016, 07:43 »

Quote from: Daryl Ray on August 29, 2016, 05:59

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 29, 2016, 05:22
So you're saying that removing all of my portfolio from Envato, will result in my sales tripling everywhere else?

This will never happen because too many of you have no self respect, little confidence in what you do, and no understanding of what "value" means, but it's quite simple:

Step 1: Stop bottom feeding and supporting companies that bottom feed and/or take too much %.
Step 2: Perceived value of product increases. Companies that gouge our earnings and bottom feed, fail.
Step 3: Profit.

Quote from: Pauws99 on August 29, 2016, 05:19
Maybe they are just dealing with the world as it is rather than they would like it to be?

They are helping perpetuate a world of devaluing our collective products and encouraging low contributor %. Those of us that live in a world where food, housing, etc. needs to be paid for with real money understand why it's crucial to retain value in our work. You all must rely on someone else for financial support, have little experience with actual physical work, and probably also don't believe movies and music have any value because you can download them for free on a torrent. Is any of this making sense yet? Of course it isn't.

I agree with everything you say, and only submit to 2 agencies now. Not they are not bottom-feeders, because they ALL are, unless one submits to macro agencies. But since this is a microstock forum, I will assume we are only talking about microstock agencies.

Even though I agree with what you say, unfortunately microstock is a global entity. I personally am in a position to choose who I deal with because photography was never my main career. But some here do sell photography as their livelihood, so they are in a different position. And because microstock is global, a dollar to me means something quite different than a dollar to someone living in another country.

Though I know exactly what you are saying, and would be behind you 100% if we were only talking about photographers in the US (or whatever country one chooses to talk about), we are not. Don't blame the photographers, blame the internet for allowing everybody and their brother to compete as though everything were equal and the standard of living was exactly the same everywhere. It is a double-edged sword though...limit sales to just one country, and contributors won't have the benefit of a global market. The idea that a person living in India or another country is happy to sell for pennies an image does not help me at all, living in the US. That isn't the photographer living in India's fault for taking the pennies, they are just trying to make a living too, but it ruins my business all the same.

Microstock isn't the only business that this has happened to, either. Freelance writers, graphic designers, programmers, music, and even the online retail industry are having the same problems. I have had the feeling for years now that the US is headed towards becoming a third world country. The wealth will be with about 10% of the population, and the other 90% will be lucky to put food on the table. But that is another topic, not for discussion here.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #43 on:** August 29, 2016, 08:05 »

Quote from: Daryl Ray on August 29, 2016, 05:59

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 29, 2016, 05:22
So you're saying that removing all of my portfolio from Envato, will result in my sales tripling everywhere else?

This will never happen because too many of you have no self respect, little confidence in what you do, and no understanding of what "value" means, but it's quite simple:

Step 1: Stop bottom feeding and supporting companies that bottom feed and/or take too much %.
Step 2: Perceived value of product increases. Companies that gouge our earnings and bottom feed, fail.
Step 3: Profit.

Quote from: Pauws99 on August 29, 2016, 05:19
Maybe they are just dealing with the world as it is rather than they would like it to be?

They are helping perpetuate a world of devaluing our collective products and encouraging low contributor %. Those of us that live in a world where food, housing, etc. needs to be paid for with real money understand why it's crucial to retain value in our work. You all must rely on someone else for financial support, have little experience with actual physical work, and probably also don't believe movies and music have any value because you can download them for free on a torrent. Is any of this making sense yet? Of course it isn't.

The "value" of anything is what people are prepared to pay for something no more no less. What you propose is just not going to happen, as you seem to say yourself, just look at how many times its been debated over and over and not just in respect of digital images. Just because I observe something to be true doesn't mean I agree with it morally but the fact is the Microstock Industry is close to a "perfect" model of capitalism - supply outstrips demand and the consequence is falling prices.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #44 on:** August 29, 2016, 08:33 »

"Microstock isn't the only business that this has happened to, either. Freelance writers, graphic designers, programmers, music, and even the online retail industry are having the same problems. I have had the feeling for years now that the US is headed towards becoming a third world country. The wealth will be with about 10% of the population, and the other 90% will be lucky to put food on the table. But that is another topic, not for discussion here." Maybe starting to stray off Topic but when this happened with cheap clothes, cheap food etc. many people were more than happy to snap up those items fuelled by cheap labour including me ..now the same thing is happening in the "professions" people are squealing.

Tror · « **Reply #45 on:** August 29, 2016, 09:32 »

Quote from: Irina Anosova on August 29, 2016, 02:41

Quote from: SpaceStockFootage on August 28, 2016, 22:58
Why doesn't somebody just drop a quick email to the IRS and ask them to check if it's all aboveboard?

Isn't IRS US only government agency? Even if it's all not aboveboard, Envato is Australian company...

Since January 2016 Envato is a US company. Thats why you have to fill out IRS tax forms ;-)

Beyond that, with international agreements like FATCA and the OECD global information exchange, in many countries your numbers meanwhile get sent automatically to your local tax office.

cathyslife · « **Reply #46 on:** August 29, 2016, 09:44 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on August 29, 2016, 08:33

"Microstock isn't the only business that this has happened to, either. Freelance writers, graphic designers, programmers, music, and even the online retail industry are having the same problems. I have had the feeling for years now that the US is headed towards becoming a third world country. The wealth will be with about 10% of the population, and the other 90% will be lucky to put food on the table. But that is another topic, not for discussion here." Maybe starting to stray off Topic but when this happened with cheap clothes, cheap food etc. many people were more than happy to snap up those items fuelled by cheap labour including me ..now the same thing is happening in the "professions" people are squealing.

Some of us squealed when Walmart, Dollar Stores, etc. wanted to come into the neighborhood. But just as with microstock, money talks. It is difficult for the little guys to fight the large corporations and their $$$s.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #47 on:** August 29, 2016, 09:48 »

Quote from: cathyslife on August 29, 2016, 09:44

Quote from: Pauws99 on August 29, 2016, 08:33
"Microstock isn't the only business that this has happened to, either. Freelance writers, graphic designers, programmers, music, and even the online retail industry are having the same problems. I have had the feeling for years now that the US is headed towards becoming a third world country. The wealth will be with about 10% of the population, and the other 90% will be lucky to put food on the table. But that is another topic, not for discussion here." Maybe starting to stray off Topic but when this happened with cheap clothes, cheap food etc. many people were more than happy to snap up those items fuelled by cheap labour including me ..now the same thing is happening in the "professions" people are squealing.

Some of us squealed when Walmart, Dollar Stores, etc. wanted to come into the neighborhood. But just as with microstock, money talks. It is difficult for the little guys to fight the large corporations and their $$$s.

Yes very true.....though of course its the likes of Nike who pass off mass produced footwear made by cheap labour as a "quality" product. Anyway straying off topic......I get bored when I'm supposed to be doing keywording and it makes me grumpy

.

cathyslife · « **Reply #48 on:** August 29, 2016, 11:28 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on August 29, 2016, 09:48

Quote from: cathyslife on August 29, 2016, 09:44
Quote from: Pauws99 on August 29, 2016, 08:33
"Microstock isn't the only business that this has happened to, either. Freelance writers, graphic designers, programmers, music, and even the online retail industry are having the same problems. I have had the feeling for years now that the US is headed towards becoming a third world country. The wealth will be with about 10% of the population, and the other 90% will be lucky to put food on the table. But that is another topic, not for discussion here." Maybe starting to stray off Topic but when this happened with cheap clothes, cheap food etc. many people were more than happy to snap up those items fuelled by cheap labour including me ..now the same thing is happening in the "professions" people are squealing.

Some of us squealed when Walmart, Dollar Stores, etc. wanted to come into the neighborhood. But just as with microstock, money talks. It is difficult for the little guys to fight the large corporations and their $$$s.
Yes very true.....though of course its the likes of Nike who pass off mass produced footwear made by cheap labour as a "quality" product. Anyway straying off topic......I get bored when I'm supposed to be doing keywording and it makes me grumpy .

I hear ya.

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