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Author Topic: Scans from old books/illustrations  (Read 14834 times)

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JoEr

« on: October 03, 2012, 12:43 »
0
I see quite a few illustrators whose portfolios are full of what seems to be scans of old illustrations (can't imagine they're actually drawing them by hand, judging by the number of images in some portfolios). How can you tell for sure that the copyright has expired? And do all sites accept this kind of vectors?


« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 13:09 »
0
I see quite a few illustrators whose portfolios are full of what seems to be scans of old illustrations (can't imagine they're actually drawing them by hand, judging by the number of images in some portfolios). How can you tell for sure that the copyright has expired? And do all sites accept this kind of vectors?

If the original work was published before 1885 ( when the first copyright international low was made, and all world countries adopted) the illustrations are in Public Domain. For more recent work is a little bit hard to find if the copyrights expired... different countries have different laws. Ex: in US is life+70 years ( life of the author and 70 years after his death) in Mexico is life + 100 Years.

There are some agencies that accepts this type of work ( but you must be very selective and upload only the most important and representative drawings)

The best selling agency that accepted this type of work (Shutterstock) with huge selling potential , stopped accepted them from June this year... not even as editorial.

« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 13:11 »
0
You can't (because laws are so different in different countries). Anything pre 1800 should be fair game though unless it is owned by a museum.

No, all sites don't accept these and with the ones that do it is not consistent.

« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 13:17 »
0
You can't (because laws are so different in different countries). Anything pre 1800 should be fair game though unless it is owned by a museum.

Anything pre 1885 should be OK. (Can you give me a scenario of a 1884 image that is still copyrighted?)

One problem is the copyright of the "new" image: If someone downloads an old illustration as RF image, he/she could legally upload it in full size for example on flickr.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 13:30 »
0
You can't (because laws are so different in different countries). Anything pre 1800 should be fair game though unless it is owned by a museum.

Anything pre 1885 should be OK. (Can you give me a scenario of a 1884 image that is still copyrighted?)

One problem is the copyright of the "new" image: If someone downloads an old illustration as RF image, he/she could legally upload it in full size for example on flickr.
Doesn't the copyright of the 'new' image belong with the photographer?

« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 13:33 »
0
You can't (because laws are so different in different countries). Anything pre 1800 should be fair game though unless it is owned by a museum.

Anything pre 1885 should be OK. (Can you give me a scenario of a 1884 image that is still copyrighted?)

...

If it was an 1884 image from a 10 year old Mexican who lived to be 100 then it could still be in copyright 'til 2074 (highly hypothetical) - I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. I do know that some sites won't accept them though.

« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2012, 13:50 »
0
You can't (because laws are so different in different countries). Anything pre 1800 should be fair game though unless it is owned by a museum.

Anything pre 1885 should be OK. (Can you give me a scenario of a 1884 image that is still copyrighted?)

...

If it was an 1884 image from a 10 year old Mexican who lived to be 100 then it could still be in copyright 'til 2074 (highly hypothetical) - I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. I do know that some sites won't accept them though.

Assuming the author created the work at his birth  ;)....

There is another possibility : the author sold the works ( and the copyrights) to the books editure... and the editure release the content of the drawings in PD.. after a certain number of years say...100.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 13:53 by nicku »

« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2012, 16:51 »
0
Doesn't the copyright of the 'new' image belong with the photographer?

Not really, if the work isn't derivative. Scanning and cleaning the image doesn't really create a new copyright in most cases. It's a very grey area...

I have some old engravings in my portfolio, some sell, some don't. I'm a bit sad that SS started to reject all old images, I had some good stuff coming...

« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2012, 17:35 »
0
Personally, I'm glad SS stopped accepting these kind of images. In my opinion, it undermines the credibility of the whole industry and those of us who work hard to create original images.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2012, 18:18 »
0
Personally, I'm glad SS stopped accepting these kind of images. In my opinion, it undermines the credibility of the whole industry and those of us who work hard to create original images.
If the market wants/needs these images, why shouldn't they be supplied? A lot of them are of historical people or events, useful for the textbook industry. They don't affect your sales at all.

w7lwi

  • Those that don't stand up to evil enable evil.
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2012, 20:01 »
0
I have several old magazines from the mid 1860's.  These contain numerous illustrations of the U.S. civil war and the movement of settlers traveling west, fighting Indians, etc.  I would love to photograph these illustrations and submit them as many would be considered historical.  However, as noted above, most RF agencies will no longer accept these, even though they are almost 150 years old and all copyrights have long since expired.  Anyone have any suggestions?

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 20:07 »
0
I have several old magazines from the mid 1860's.  These contain numerous illustrations of the U.S. civil war and the movement of settlers traveling west, fighting Indians, etc.  I would love to photograph these illustrations and submit them as many would be considered historical.  However, as noted above, most RF agencies will no longer accept these, even though they are almost 150 years old and all copyrights have long since expired.  Anyone have any suggestions?
Either submit only to those who will accept them (you won't have rivals at the others) or consider RM, even a specialist agency if they are unique.
Alamy has over 11,000 images tagged American Civil War; though a fair few are re-enactments, a lot are the sort of illustrations you mean. If yours are different, you might consider there.

« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 21:28 »
-1
I see quite a few illustrators whose portfolios are full of what seems to be scans of old illustrations (can't imagine they're actually drawing them by hand, judging by the number of images in some portfolios). How can you tell for sure that the copyright has expired? And do all sites accept this kind of vectors?

Ask Mophart on PM
He is scanning master blaster of that old crap. His pointer finger is shorter than his small finger just because of pressing scan button on his scanner milions of times, and after he dog down trace option in vector programs he becomes The Short Finger Pointer King.
First you must ask yourself did you want this kind of future of yourself  :o

« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2012, 00:00 »
0
Personally, I'm glad SS stopped accepting these kind of images. In my opinion, it undermines the credibility of the whole industry and those of us who work hard to create original images.

You don't photograph a PD illustration ( created by somebody else ) and claim that is yours. Those who sells PD illustrations , they selling only a high resolution copy of that work without claiming the drawing to be their original work. A big part of the work sold as PD can not be found elsewhere.

« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2012, 00:04 »
+1
I see quite a few illustrators whose portfolios are full of what seems to be scans of old illustrations (can't imagine they're actually drawing them by hand, judging by the number of images in some portfolios). How can you tell for sure that the copyright has expired? And do all sites accept this kind of vectors?

Ask Mophart on PM
He is scanning master blaster of that old crap. His pointer finger is shorter than his small finger just because of pressing scan button on his scanner milions of times, and after he dog down trace option in vector programs he becomes The Short Finger Pointer King.
First you must ask yourself did you want this kind of future of yourself :o

First of all don't blend business with fun photography.... to answer your question : Yes, if is legally and profitable.

grp_photo

« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2012, 00:39 »
0
I see quite a few illustrators whose portfolios are full of what seems to be scans of old illustrations (can't imagine they're actually drawing them by hand, judging by the number of images in some portfolios). How can you tell for sure that the copyright has expired? And do all sites accept this kind of vectors?

Ask Mophart on PM
He is scanning master blaster of that old crap. His pointer finger is shorter than his small finger just because of pressing scan button on his scanner milions of times, and after he dog down trace option in vector programs he becomes The Short Finger Pointer King.
First you must ask yourself did you want this kind of future of yourself :o

First of all don't blend business with fun photography.... to answer your question : Yes, if is legally and profitable.
lol it was a joke Suljo regarding the fingers of Morphart.

JoEr

« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2012, 03:29 »
0
Copyrights can be sold, can't they? So even if you find a book from 1820 the rights could have been sold at some point and now be owned by someone else? Can't believe that any site allowed these in the first place when there's so much uncertainty regarding the copyright.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2012, 05:19 »
0
Copyrights can be sold, can't they? So even if you find a book from 1820 the rights could have been sold at some point and now be owned by someone else? Can't believe that any site allowed these in the first place when there's so much uncertainty regarding the copyright.
If concerned about that, upload to Alamy.
Tick Yes for needs PR and No for PR available.
I know these things are different in different countries, but I have read the relevant UK legislation which says that copyright expires 70 years after the death of the artist; there is no rider about transferred copyright, which is an interesting issue.

« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2012, 10:04 »
0
Copyrights can be sold, can't they? So even if you find a book from 1820 the rights could have been sold at some point and now be owned by someone else? Can't believe that any site allowed these in the first place when there's so much uncertainty regarding the copyright.

After ''life + 70'' or life + whatever ( different countries) the artwork copyright expired and ca not be restored. In case of companies they can release the artwork ( if they bought the copyrights from the creator) in Public domain even in the lifetime of the original creator.

 let me give you a very popular example :


We all know Santa Claus ... the fat old man dressed in red and white long beard was created in early 1930 by COCA COLA Company for a advertising campaign. The stock sites are full of various designs incorporating the red dressed old man with white beard. Who hold the copyrights for that description of Santa???

I believe it's the same with the PD illustrations from old books

PS. i believe more than 97% of the sold PD vintage illustrations were used as Editorial or in editorial limits. The illustrations are by nature editorials designs.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 10:06 by nicku »

« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2012, 12:30 »
0
Copyrights can be sold, can't they? So even if you find a book from 1820 the rights could have been sold at some point and now be owned by someone else? Can't believe that any site allowed these in the first place when there's so much uncertainty regarding the copyright.

After ''life + 70'' or life + whatever ( different countries) the artwork copyright expired and ca not be restored. In case of companies they can release the artwork ( if they bought the copyrights from the creator) in Public domain even in the lifetime of the original creator.

 let me give you a very popular example :


We all know Santa Claus ... the fat old man dressed in red and white long beard was created in early 1930 by COCA COLA Company for a advertising campaign. The stock sites are full of various designs incorporating the red dressed old man with white beard. Who hold the copyrights for that description of Santa???

I believe it's the same with the PD illustrations from old books

PS. i believe more than 97% of the sold PD vintage illustrations were used as Editorial or in editorial limits. The illustrations are by nature editorials designs.

I think that description originated with the poem Twas the Night Before Christmas by Moore, who published it in 1823.  He died in 1863 so the copyright most likely has expired.  The later ones just put drawings to the previous description - not sure who owns the copyright.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2012, 12:55 »
0
Copyrights can be sold, can't they? So even if you find a book from 1820 the rights could have been sold at some point and now be owned by someone else? Can't believe that any site allowed these in the first place when there's so much uncertainty regarding the copyright.

After ''life + 70'' or life + whatever ( different countries) the artwork copyright expired and ca not be restored. In case of companies they can release the artwork ( if they bought the copyrights from the creator) in Public domain even in the lifetime of the original creator.

Oh, well.
I just had an iStock rejection.
"Not suitable for the RF (sic) collection ... may be uploaded to the editorial collection."
(sidenote: no wonder so many posters are confused about RF/Editorial with that wording)
But I had done my research and discovered that the originator had died in May 1942, so 70 years is up.
And of course, there are different examples of similar works by the same artist in the commercial collection, since not long after the starting of iStock.
I wouldn't mind so much: the use is most likely to be editorial BUT it could be used by a travel company, so losing out.
Scout is taking at least four weeks at present. Grrrr.  >:(

« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2012, 14:47 »
0
Copyrights can be sold, can't they? So even if you find a book from 1820 the rights could have been sold at some point and now be owned by someone else? Can't believe that any site allowed these in the first place when there's so much uncertainty regarding the copyright.

After ''life + 70'' or life + whatever ( different countries) the artwork copyright expired and ca not be restored. In case of companies they can release the artwork ( if they bought the copyrights from the creator) in Public domain even in the lifetime of the original creator.

 let me give you a very popular example :


We all know Santa Claus ... the fat old man dressed in red and white long beard was created in early 1930 by COCA COLA Company for a advertising campaign. The stock sites are full of various designs incorporating the red dressed old man with white beard. Who hold the copyrights for that description of Santa???

I believe it's the same with the PD illustrations from old books

PS. i believe more than 97% of the sold PD vintage illustrations were used as Editorial or in editorial limits. The illustrations are by nature editorials designs.

I think that description originated with the poem Twas the Night Before Christmas by Moore, who published it in 1823.  He died in 1863 so the copyright most likely has expired.  The later ones just put drawings to the previous description - not sure who owns the copyright.

I know . but the first ''modern'' illustration of Santa was made by Coca Cola ( present day version). According to present day Copyright laws the original owner of the design still holds the copyright of the work even if the original was modified. The artist who modify the image holds the copyright only on the modification ... not the whole design.

I personally believe that Coca Cola still holds the legal / legitimate copyright on Santa ( in US the corporate Copyrights are 95 years) until 2025; but the phenomenon took such large amplitude worldwide and today is spread everywhere and uncontrollable. That's why no one has been sued by Coca Cola for Santa
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 14:52 by nicku »

« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2012, 15:03 »
0
Santa Clause wasn't invented by Coca-Cola, they just popularized and colored him red. I have seen many 19th century illustrations of Santa, the chubby fellow with a beard, hat and even belt.

« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2012, 15:07 »
0
 8)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 15:13 by nicku »

Poncke

« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2012, 17:52 »
+1
Coca Cola had nothing to do with creating or improving Santa. Thats a hoax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus#20th_century


 

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