Author Topic: My image on DeviantArt. Is this OK? (Read 19935 times)

Dreamframer · « **on:** December 04, 2009, 23:03 »

Hi everybody,
I think the girl didn't brake the rules, but I would like to double check here. My image from Dreamstime:

is altered and it's selling as print on DeviantArt.

Should author buy an EL for this image or not?

Regards,
Ivan

FD · « **Reply #1 on:** December 05, 2009, 02:14 »

Quote from: Whitechild on December 04, 2009, 23:03

Should author buy an EL for this image or not?

If he is selling it there (even modified), he is doing redistribution, and that is forbidden on all MS sites. Sue him.

Noodles · « **Reply #2 on:** December 05, 2009, 07:02 »

Digital artists need material to create such work and often they don't make huge profits (if any at all) from prints - I would need more information about the girl before I got concerned - I actually enjoy to see art created this way and as long as she bought the image then I would have few issues. Did she give you a credit for the photo?

I just checked her portfolio - she is using other images from Dreamtime and stating as such - can she then resell them I don't know - I hope so cause her work is really nice

snaprender · « **Reply #3 on:** December 05, 2009, 11:49 »

What she is doing is redistribution/print on demand and it is not allowed in any of dreamstimes regular or EL licenses from what I understand in their terms. I would contact dreamstime and let them know whats going on.

Kone · « **Reply #4 on:** December 05, 2009, 11:58 »

I would contact Dreamstime before I do anything

Kone

WarrenPrice · « **Reply #5 on:** December 05, 2009, 12:32 »

Whitechild,
I have no idea about the answer to your question... what the last two posters recommended sounds good to me... anyway, I just wanted to say, "Wow." That is a great photo. One of those "wish I had taken that" images.

click_click · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2009, 14:59 »

No it's NOT ok - here is why:

Definition of copyright infringement by the U.S. Copyright Office (http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-definitions.html):

Quote

As a general matter, copyright infringement occurs when a copyrighted work is reproduced, distributed, performed, publicly displayed, or made into a derivative work without the permission of the copyright owner.

Just this in itself should explain clearly where you're at.

Furthermore if anyone remembers, the "fritzkocher" issue - he did the same exact thing and got banned from all the stock sites.

This is crystal clear but of course the artist who used your image (and others) will not agree with that.

I'd do everything to sue this thief *biting tongue*.

Good luck!

cthoman · « **Reply #7 on:** December 05, 2009, 15:46 »

I don't know about lawsuits, but you might ask them to stop selling it or buy the extended license. Here's the P-EL copy:

Print Usage (P-EL):
Physical Items for Resale: includes the right to use the photos for t-shirts, postcards, greeting cards, mugs, mousepads, posters, calendars, framed artwork that is to be sold to other customers for a maximum amount of 10,000 copies (applies as a total of each type of usage). If this amount is exceeded you need to acquire this license once again. The new license will provide you with the standard amount of copies.
This is an additional license to the rights included within the regular Royalty-Free license. Note that the other restrictions still apply.

m@m · « **Reply #8 on:** December 05, 2009, 16:18 »

Whitechild, as long as we let people like her get away with stealing our images without paying the correct licenses for their own profits, with only a slap on the hand, will only open up the road for many other thieves to follow, I strongly believe that a lawsuit in this case is the only way to go, it seems to me that in this case you have to fight fire with fire...how many more of this type of incidents are we going to allowed to happened over and over, this type of disregard for other peoples rights got to be stopped.

click_click · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2009, 16:20 »

If you need a proper answer you must speak to a lawyer!

The Enhanced or Extended licenses allow reproduction but it does not transfer any other rights (like copyright).

If this Deviantart artist claims copyright for the new image it is a breach of licensing terms in my book but I may be wrong.

Dreamstime will help you to answer that question.

In any case it's a lousy attitude to use somebody else's image as the main element of the new artwork without asking for permission (besides purchasing a valid license of course). This would actually already answer why the person didn't ask you for permission because if I were you, I wouldn't have given permission...

@ m@m - this will always happen - unfortunately. But you are right, one has to take action and do everything possible to get these images removed or taken down from distribution.

lisafx · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2009, 16:47 »

First off, Ivan, beautiful image! Really stunning photo

Your image is a substantial part of her artwork, but she did include other elements to make a derivative work. Which is allowed in the standard microstock license.

Of course printing and selling the final product is not covered by the standard license, but would appear to be allowed under the P-EL license, as Cthoman said.

Sounds to me more of a simple case of not understanding the license, rather than "theft". If she was deliberately trying to be dishonest or underhanded she would not be stating that she got the images from DT.

For several reasons, I believe it is better to contact her directly, or else call Dreamstime and let them enforce the license. For one thing, it is expensive to hire a lawyer to enforce your rights. For another, this appears to be a misunderstanding more than deliberate abuse of your license.

click_click · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2009, 17:21 »

Quote from: lisafx on December 05, 2009, 16:47

...Your image is a substantial part of her artwork, but she did include other elements to make a derivative work. Which is allowed in the standard microstock license. ...

Lisa,
I really would love to hear everyone's opinion about this statement.

Could you elaborate what this exactly means?

While Shutterstock's submitter agreement clearly states that all uploaded content must be created by the contributor and the definition of copyright as I stated above also considers this as an infringement of copyright I have a hard time following your thoughts on this.

I understand that this "artist" is not selling this "artwork" at Shutterstock or possibly not even at any stock image agency, however if there is a financial gain involved it is considered commercial "artwork". You can not sell artwork as your own if elements have been taken from other artists. If so then only with their consent (and not just by adding a link or note to the agency where the image was obtained...!!!).

I have to go back to the fritzkocher issue as many may remember and I think Lisa you may have followed that problem as well:

This guy took very good stock images form other contributors and photoshopped helplessly some compositions together that were clearly considered as copyright infringement (at least by many stock agencies). Who cares if he did acquire an EL for all those images? He still broke the law.

Now to go back to this image and your statement Lisa, are you saying I can buy an EL from you, altering %25 of your image and then sell it as my own on a print site???

I really would like to get this cleared up, because I thought we do have some limits on how far one can go ripping our images. I would draw the line in this case a long time ago.

cthoman · « **Reply #12 on:** December 05, 2009, 17:55 »

Quote from: click_click on December 05, 2009, 17:21

...are you saying I can buy an EL from you, altering %25 of your image and then sell it as my own on a print site???

Yes (sort of), or you could sell it as is without modifying. In either case you wouldn't own it, have any claim to copyright or be able to distribute the actual image, but you purchased the right to license it for retail print. Some EL's don't cover PODs. I don't think Shutterstock's does.

Digital66 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 05, 2009, 19:42 »

Whitechild,

I have found this image also at http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn180/ayed2/Boodi/?action=view&current=Drowning_Lessons_by_phatpuppy.jpg

The portfolio of this person is http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn180/ayed2/

I just wonder... did he/she even pay for a basic license? Maybe he/she just dowloaded the BIG comp image available at Dreamstime

m@m · « **Reply #14 on:** December 05, 2009, 20:59 »

^^^Just another misunderstanding on his/her part, right Lisa?!!!

Dreamframer · « **Reply #15 on:** December 05, 2009, 23:52 »

Guys thank you for your advices. I red all your replies and I contacted her. We exchanged few emails and she is apologizing and offers me some kind of cooperation. But I will contact Dreamstime as well and see what they have to say. I will post here their answer.
Thank you all once more!
Ivan

crazychristina · « **Reply #16 on:** December 06, 2009, 01:56 »

She has a RedBubble account too. I noticed that the work in question is not for sale there however.

ap · « **Reply #17 on:** December 06, 2009, 02:15 »

Quote from: averil on December 06, 2009, 01:56

She has a RedBubble account too. I noticed that the work in question is not for sale there however.

i remembered there were a lot of discussions at red bubble about artists using stock photos as a basis for their 'art'. searching for 'stock photo' in their forum, it seems like it's quite a prevalent thing whether they realize it's violating copyright or not.

http://www.redbubble.com/groups/redbubble/forums/posts/search?q=stock+photo&commit=Search+the+Forums

i myself am still not clear about this. does an el clear up the whole matter or does it have to cover a pod specifically?

Clivia · « **Reply #18 on:** December 06, 2009, 02:46 »

I had this happen with one of my images a few years ago. I contacted the artist, who had never sold a print. He has paid for an image, but the contract was beyond his understanding!
Does it really upset you enough to go to great lengths to stop it?

Dreamframer · « **Reply #19 on:** December 06, 2009, 03:41 »

Quote from: Clivia on December 06, 2009, 02:46

I had this happen with one of my images a few years ago. I contacted the artist, who had never sold a print. He has paid for an image, but the contract was beyond his understanding!
Does it really upset you enough to go to great lengths to stop it?

Absolutely the same case.... I think she doesn't understand the contract fully, and she never sold this work... I contacted Dreamstime. I'm waiting for their answer.

gostwyck · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2009, 06:22 »

DevianArt is basically hobbyists messing about with PS and enjoying the accolades of their fellow hobbyists isn't it? I can't imagine there's many, if any, people seriously trying to earn significant sums let alone a living from it. Let's face it, it is hard enough earning a living from conventional stock sales as it is and most DA work is not particularly commercially oriented and the site is not targetting stock buyers.

I think we are probably better off being grateful for the few sales we do get from DA members rather than hammering them with emails demanding to know whether they are complying with the intricacies of the license.

In the event that one of them produces a masterpiece which actually ends up on posters/calendars/whatever, and it includes microstock-sourced elements, then it might be worth taking action. Until then you are probably better off expending the time & energy into producing more stock than chasing the tails of these hobbyists.

cathyslife · « **Reply #21 on:** December 06, 2009, 07:44 »

Quote

Until then you are probably better off expending the time & energy into producing more stock than chasing the tails of these hobbyists.

If the person is a hobbyist, that is one thing. They can use anything they want to express their artistic inclinations. As soon as they start selling the image and saying they own the copyright, they are violating the terms of the license of the original image. In order for someone to claim copyright to a work such as whitechild posted, it was my understanding they had to own the copyright to ALL of the elements in the photo.

If it turns out a person can take my image, make a minor modification and RESELL that image as their own, I am going to have to investigate all of the contributors agreements again. I thought I read them carefully, but I never understood that THAT was ok to do. Altering an image and using it on a printed piece or putting it on a website is what I understood the license to cover.

Just because this person has never sold that image does not make it right that she is offering it for sale. That's like saying someone only walked into a store and stole a 5 cent piece of candy. It's still stealing, even if it was only worth 5 cents!

Fred · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2009, 08:03 »

Quote from: gostwyck on December 06, 2009, 06:22

DevianArt is basically hobbyists messing about with PS and enjoying the accolades of their fellow hobbyists isn't it? I can't imagine there's many, if any, people seriously trying to earn significant sums let alone a living from it. Let's face it, it is hard enough earning a living from conventional stock sales as it is and most DA work is not particularly commercially oriented and the site is not targetting stock buyers.

I think we are probably better off being grateful for the few sales we do get from DA members rather than hammering them with emails demanding to know whether they are complying with the intricacies of the license.

In the event that one of them produces a masterpiece which actually ends up on posters/calendars/whatever, and it includes microstock-sourced elements, then it might be worth taking action. Until then you are probably better off expending the time & energy into producing more stock than chasing the tails of these hobbyists.

I agree, especially with the last paragraph. If someone uses one of your images improperly and it makes it really big you will probably become aware of it and be able to make a big settlement for the infringement. However, if you shut down every infringing usage as quickly as possible there is no possibility of this happening and you may be cutting yourself out of a big payday. After all if it doesn't sell any or only sells a few it probably is not hurting you anyway.

fred

Digital66 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:27 »

Come on! She is clearly stealing and using stock images to make some money.

Whitechild, Did she buy en EL? Did she ask you for permission to use your work? At http://www.redbubble.com/groups/redbubble/forums/posts/search?q=stock+photo&commit=Search+the+Forums she says: "I always send personal notes to photographers seeking their permission to use their stock images."

So, if she did not ask for your permission, she is just a liar. She is stealing stock photos.

She is clearly using this work to make money, not just to show "her art" . At http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn180/ayed2/Boodi/?action=view&current=Drowning_Lessons_by_phatpuppy.jpg people can buy prints, mugs, playing cards, etc of this image

Kone · « **Reply #24 on:** December 06, 2009, 13:13 »

Quote from: Digital66 on December 06, 2009, 12:27

Come on! She is clearly stealing and using stock images to make some money.

Whitechild, Did she buy en EL? Did she ask you for permission to use your work? At http://www.redbubble.com/groups/redbubble/forums/posts/search?q=stock+photo&commit=Search+the+Forums she says: "I always send personal notes to photographers seeking their permission to use their stock images."

So, if she did not ask for your permission, she is just a liar. She is stealing stock photos.

She is clearly using this work to make money, not just to show "her art" . At http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn180/ayed2/Boodi/?action=view&current=Drowning_Lessons_by_phatpuppy.jpg people can buy prints, mugs, playing cards, etc of this image

I agree 100%
Why didn't she contact you? Maybe she forgot?

Kone

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Author Topic: My image on DeviantArt. Is this OK? (Read 19935 times)

Dreamframer

FD

Noodles

snaprender

Kone

WarrenPrice

click_click

cthoman

m@m

click_click

lisafx

click_click

cthoman

Digital66

m@m

Dreamframer

crazychristina

ap

Clivia

Dreamframer

gostwyck

cathyslife

Fred

Digital66

Kone

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