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Author Topic: How we announce our voices to make a call to our rights?  (Read 7897 times)

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« on: August 04, 2016, 16:30 »
+9
I think how bad we couldnt control prices of our own products on everywhere... our crafts sold by very high prices while can be sold at very low prices on the other hand,  our earnings are bad in both cases, I believe that this situation is going to get worse over time, I think microstock agencies earn too much and they pay very little commission to us... I think there must be "microstock trade unions" to protect and defend our rights.. am I right? please ... I'd love to get your feedback... "if you don't ask, you don't get"  so I want to ask all the complainant microstockers, how we announce our voices to make a call to our rights?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 08:45 by madman »


« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2016, 16:33 »
+3
Mmmmm....nipples....

« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2016, 16:34 »
+3
lol here we go again

« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2016, 16:35 »
+7
Sorry, it's only been two weeks since the last thread.  Please come back in January.

« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2016, 16:40 »
0
yes we must be united contributors.
For example Revostock. If we have a fund we can sue Craig without a big risk for the individuals.
Maybe something like a "Microstock Contributors Law Fund".
All members paying 20$ a year. Every year the fund members can vote what to do with the money.


« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2016, 16:50 »
0
Sorry, it's only been two weeks since the last thread.  Please come back in January.

where is the thread?

ShadySue

« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2016, 16:54 »
+2

« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2016, 17:05 »
0
this is not the same thing...

« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2016, 17:06 »
0

« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2016, 17:13 »
+1
by the way, its better if we dont see here any unnecessary posts so can't pollute the subject... thanks for understanding folks...

nipple=pacifier
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 17:20 by madman »

PaulieWalnuts

  • On the Wrong Side of the Business
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2016, 18:20 »
+1
Prices will go up when supply drops significantly. Take that however you want.

Regrading a union, I'm not sure I'd even want to join if there was one.

« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2016, 19:04 »
+3
Step 1: learn to use punctuation.

Communicating your message is a somewhat professional way goes a long way toward people taking you seriously.

That was one of the longest run-on sentences I've ever sen.

« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2016, 23:46 »
0
I think how bad we couldnt control prices of our own products on everywhere... our crafts sold by very high prices while can be sold at very low prices on the other hand,  our earnings are bad in both cases, I believe that this situation is going to get worse over time, I think microstock agencies earn too much and they pay very little commission to us... I think there must be "microstock trade unions" to protect and defend our rights.. am I right? please ... I'd love to get your feedback... we have a saying there, "baby cant get nipples if dont cry"  so I want to ask all the complainant microstockers, how we announce our voices to make a call to our rights?

In all my life I never had to cry to get it

SpaceStockFootage

  • Space, Sci-Fi and Astronomy Related Stock Footage

« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2016, 01:07 »
+1
I think "if you don't ask, you don't get" is a more universal phrase.

« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2016, 01:25 »
+7
Rumor has it that the iPhone 7 will have a 21 MP camera that can defocus the background more effectively than before. Won't be DSLR or even mirrorless quality, but it's closing the gap. After taking a few photos, everyone will think they're photographers and they will flood Instagram with their wonderful creations. Everyone will have photos of flowers, trees, clouds, tomatoes, strawberries and grapes good enough to be used for almost anything.

What good would a union do when we're in the middle of an oversupply? There is no reversing the pricing trend unless you take everyone's phones away and you're going to have to pry it off of their cold dead hands. It's right time to diversify and learn some new skills. Honestly, that's really the only thing you can control.

alno

« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2016, 06:08 »
+1
It's a free market with really A LOT of buyers and sellers. And it works with good old supply and demand thing. Why instead of trying something new for yourself (cg, code, site themes, forex, tutoring, knitting, breeding rabbits) you are going to make those simple things more complicated?

« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2016, 08:47 »
0
It's a free market with really A LOT of buyers and sellers. And it works with good old supply and demand thing. Why instead of trying something new for yourself (cg, code, site themes, forex, tutoring, knitting, breeding rabbits) you are going to make those simple things more complicated?

yea.. that is not so simple as saying...


alno

« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2016, 09:17 »
+3
It's a free market with really A LOT of buyers and sellers. And it works with good old supply and demand thing. Why instead of trying something new for yourself (cg, code, site themes, forex, tutoring, knitting, breeding rabbits) you are going to make those simple things more complicated?

yea.. that is not so simple as saying...

It is always more simple than we used to think. Two years ago I worked in a bank and had no idea what do ISO, frame rate or slider mean. It's all about our comfort zone and real intention of changing the life.

« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2016, 09:39 »
+1
Sorry, it's only been two weeks since the last thread.  Please come back in January.

where is the thread?
There have been lots of threads about this for over a decade now.  Just type "union" in the search box if you want to see how this topic has gone nowhere.

« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2016, 09:49 »
0
Sorry, it's only been two weeks since the last thread.  Please come back in January.

where is the thread?
There have been lots of threads about this for over a decade now.  Just type "union" in the search box if you want to see how this topic has gone nowhere.

I've made a search for "union" but I cannot say I can find any results "exactly the same" with my topic.

maybe this topic will go "nowhere" but why? there's a reason for that, there is a lot of contributors who selling their works in different microstock agencies and at the same time there is so many contributors who doesn't even know the existence of this forum...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 09:56 by madman »

« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2016, 10:16 »
+3
Sorry, it's only been two weeks since the last thread.  Please come back in January.

where is the thread?
There have been lots of threads about this for over a decade now.  Just type "union" in the search box if you want to see how this topic has gone nowhere.

I've made a search for "union" but I cannot say I can find any results "exactly the same" with my topic.

maybe this topic will go "nowhere" but why? there's a reason for that, there is a lot of contributors who selling their works in different microstock agencies and at the same time there is so many contributors who doesn't even know the existence of this forum...
I have read many threads about a microstock union, maybe you need to search more?  It has been discussed for years but nothing ever happens.  I gave up on the idea when istock cut commission below 20% and a lot of us were willing to take action but the majority carried on uploading as if nothing had happened.

« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2016, 10:18 »
0
give me the links please...

« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2016, 10:18 »
+6
There is an overwhelming supply of the standard stock images as the equipment gets more advanced and every one thinks they can do everything.  Many part-timers are very happy to see even  $.20 sale because it means somebody is using their image.  Many people are uploading images for FREE to news sites, which then turn around and offer them for sale.  A union can't fight over-supply on this scale due to the number of willing "union busters" out there. 

Photographers will have to somehow need to found a "niche" that everyone can't (or won't) cover due to the effort or skill involved or accept that micro is a low-return market and headed lower.  May be time to sharpen our skills and move on.   

« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2016, 10:22 »
+2
Prices will go up when supply drops significantly. Take that however you want.

Regrading a union, I'm not sure I'd even want to join if there was one.

LOL, we paid the dues,
the Union boss , who would it be, maybe an ex -major shareholder of ss, getty, or even the owner of fb,LOL
comes in and we gather at each city around the world, holding up cards
Microstock photographer on strike !!!

that's funny. i like the movie,
but i won't be one of the protagonist. anything that say Union, i am not for it.

ok, i go join the rest of the Union ppl outside the bldg to smoke  (not their lunch or coffee break) :D

PaulieWalnuts

  • On the Wrong Side of the Business
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2016, 07:49 »
+3
give me the links please...

So you want to organize a union but can't even use a simple search function?

There are dozens of posts with union brought up in them and if you click the "Search in topic subjects only" you will find several posts specifically about organizing a union.

Do your own research please...

« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2016, 08:25 »
0
I want, because I cant find, it is not too hard to give some links...

PaulieWalnuts

  • On the Wrong Side of the Business
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2016, 08:38 »
+5
And it is even less hard to search for yourself





« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2016, 09:57 »
+1
Rumor has it that the iPhone 7 will have a 21 MP camera that can defocus the background more effectively than before. Won't be DSLR or even mirrorless quality, but it's closing the gap. After taking a few photos, everyone will think they're photographers and they will flood Instagram with their wonderful creations. Everyone will have photos of flowers, trees, clouds, tomatoes, strawberries and grapes good enough to be used for almost anything.

What good would a union do when we're in the middle of an oversupply? There is no reversing the pricing trend unless you take everyone's phones away and you're going to have to pry it off of their cold dead hands. It's right time to diversify and learn some new skills. Honestly, that's really the only thing you can control.

wise foretelling!!!
remember how it used to be sequentially below:
- view camera / medium format (hassel, bronica, mamiya, rolleiflex)... no other person on the mountain, literally.. a la ansel adams.. but yourself
- manual Nikon F ... 15 photographers in the city, maybe 2 PRO photographers at an event
- auto SLR ... 100 in the city, 10 PRO at the event
-digital ... 500 in the city, 10 PRO 50 amateurs at the event
-notebook/mob (as of last month's most recent event)...
 at the event, we'll say...10 "pro" photographers with DSLR,mirrorless,even 35mm,
but as soon as the event begins, up when  50 mob, notebook, above your head LOL

last event really convinced me to never shoot at an event without being in the press box
ever again .

dbvirago

« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2016, 15:00 »
+1
Ok, I'll bite.
How does this union work?
How many microstock photographers are actively contributing content in today's market?
How many do you expect to join your union?
How are you going to bring them together?
Who sets the cost of images?
How does membership work?
How much does it cost?
Are there any other benefits besides collective bargaining?
How are you going to set prices so your union members make more money?
Why will the stock agencies buy from your union?
What are you going to do about all the photographers that don't join your union who are willing to sell their images for 20% less than you, undercutting your market, taking all of your customers and putting your union out of business?

Get back to me with some answers. If you haven't given these and many other questions any thought, you're just blowing smoke.


« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2016, 15:06 »
+10
The subject of this thread is amusing: "...a call to our rights?"

What? Stock photo sites lay out their terms, their pricing, royalties etc. pretty clearly for those that bother to read them and we all accept those terms by signing up. If they change policy or commissions we have every right to close our accounts. There's no abuse of rights here. This is crowd sourcing. They don't care about whether we're happy with the treatment because for every contributor that closes their account 10 more sign up.

In order to have a union and negotiate terms we'd have to have some kind of leverage. We don't. In the time it took me to write this post, 10 more people signed up with shutterstock. If you think you can get all of these contributors to uniformly withhold uploads or close their accounts in order to make our voices heard, good luck. It's been proposed and ignored so many times it makes me dizzy trying to count them all.

The search on msg is terrible. Search google for "microstockgroup union" and be enlightened.

Tryingmybest

  • Stand up for what is right
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2016, 19:29 »
+4
When it comes to a person bringing up this subject for the #th time, at least offer some encouragement. Look at the glass half-full. It can only lead to some bit of progress. Refer them to the link of previous discussion (as some have done). But don't try to shut them down. We're all on the same team. United we are strong. Divided, we are weak.

« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2016, 21:28 »
+2

In order to have a union and negotiate terms we'd have to have some kind of leverage. We don't.

I am sad to agree, but this has been the problem ever since things started to go south,  and it has only gotten worse.

« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2016, 05:05 »
+4
When it comes to a person bringing up this subject for the #th time, at least offer some encouragement. Look at the glass half-full. It can only lead to some bit of progress. Refer them to the link of previous discussion (as some have done). But don't try to shut them down. We're all on the same team. United we are strong. Divided, we are weak.
Having seen in the past decade how the majority of contributors don't take part in anything that could hurt their short term interests, I don't see how a union could possibly work, so if it started, I don't think it would help at all.  That isn't being pessimistic, that's being a realist.  I still hope we will one day have a site majority owned by contributors that's open to all.  That might only be slightly more likely to work than a union but I can have some optimism about that.

SpaceStockFootage

  • Space, Sci-Fi and Astronomy Related Stock Footage

« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2016, 19:36 »
+4
When it comes to a person bringing up this subject for the #th time, at least offer some encouragement. Look at the glass half-full. It can only lead to some bit of progress. Refer them to the link of previous discussion (as some have done). But don't try to shut them down. We're all on the same team. United we are strong. Divided, we are weak.

So if the OP had come in suggesting that we band together, take over the world, and embark on a program of mass genocide, torture and enslavement, the likes the world has never seen.... we should look at the positives and offer encouragement?

Sure, a union is slightly less extreme, but my point is that there are good ideas, bad ideas and somewhere inbetween ideas. Everyone is going to be slightly different when it it comes to which of those boxes they put that idea in. And I can't provide encouragement for an idea or course of action that I don't support, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to (unless they have children!).

The OP gets brownie points for suggesting something for the betterment of all of us. Although 90% of suggestions for 'improvement' usually come from the anger of getting rejected, or low comission or low sales prices, or no sales, or taxes etc etc, so it might not have been that selfless of an idea! And he loses brownie points for not completely thinking it through or researching if others had suggested something similar previously.

Polite, civil... no problem. But not encouragement!

gyllens

« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2016, 01:21 »
+3
As long as new members are signing on in the thousands every single day and we are talking about people who are only too happy to see a sale of a few cents and as long as we have distributors cutting in on a third of the sale in question and as long as the agencies have options to change the algorithm to suit them but wipe out many members there is no chance of any changes in an already sliding micro-stock industry.

We made our beds so to speak.

« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2016, 05:10 »
0
When it comes to a person bringing up this subject for the #th time, at least offer some encouragement. Look at the glass half-full. It can only lead to some bit of progress. Refer them to the link of previous discussion (as some have done). But don't try to shut them down. We're all on the same team. United we are strong. Divided, we are weak.
Having seen in the past decade how the majority of contributors don't take part in anything that could hurt their short term interests, I don't see how a union could possibly work, so if it started, I don't think it would help at all.  That isn't being pessimistic, that's being a realist.  I still hope we will one day have a site majority owned by contributors that's open to all.  That might only be slightly more likely to work than a union but I can have some optimism about that.


Well said!

Revostock thread showed massive contributor passivity and I don't see how Union could work any better.  :-\
http://www.microstockgroup.com/general-stock-video/so-how-much-money-revostock-owe-you-let's-sum-up-the-total/

But yes, I will support any community idea and vox populi gigs.

« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2016, 11:44 »
0
As long as new members are signing on in the thousands every single day and we are talking about people who are only too happy to see a sale of a few cents and as long as we have distributors cutting in on a third of the sale in question and as long as the agencies have options to change the algorithm to suit them but wipe out many members there is no chance of any changes in an already sliding micro-stock industry.

We made our beds so to speak.

there are other reasons why no one does it
-size  (just like crime, global is very different to enforce)
-money (chasing after someone cost money)

it's as in the fashion industry re the whiteness prevailing in Milan, NY, Paris
when asked with China being an economic player today , since 2011,
why are the designers still not hiring more chinese, even if there is a large
market in chinese women being the largest economic potential...
"it does not matter enough".
..ie. even if you put more black, brown, yellow..models on catwalks,
they won't matter because their skin color won't be noticeable
nor the fashion of the clothes.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 11:47 by etudiante_rapide »


Rose Tinted Glasses

« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2016, 12:12 »
+7
Let me get this straight, you agree to some pretty crappy terms such as 0.25c per download. Then you want to have a voice to call out your rights.

You will only have rights if you have respect and value for your own work.

« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2017, 16:09 »
0
This topic must stay alive, at least!
most of contributors are literate people doing amazing things. Interesting responses and and rejection reasons while they still suck. I bet that took a while for all to reach a certain goal selling stock. The same people that are supposed to be open minded and creative are rejecting the only meaningful way for them to increase their profits.
I totally agree with you idea and also willing to contribute.
Selling stock from 2009
full time stock seller
closed istock account while ago
deleted over 10000 stock images and 5000 clips from different agencies
Stock agencies played their part in the market
They got their share for it, no complains there
While i am embracing the idea i do not feel so optimist about finding incentives to convince the rest of the contributors

For those who are reading my post, try to find new solutions not new problems!
......
count me in !

« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2017, 17:20 »
+1
Ok, I'll bite.
How does this union work?
How many microstock photographers are actively contributing content in today's market?
How many do you expect to join your union?
How are you going to bring them together?
Who sets the cost of images?
How does membership work?
How much does it cost?
Are there any other benefits besides collective bargaining?
How are you going to set prices so your union members make more money?
Why will the stock agencies buy from your union?
What are you going to do about all the photographers that don't join your union who are willing to sell their images for 20% less than you, undercutting your market, taking all of your customers and putting your union out of business?

Get back to me with some answers. If you haven't given these and many other questions any thought, you're just blowing smoke.

1. legal entity as board commission
2. stock agency in front of that
3. at least 500.000 global
4. incentive, high return per sale, idea that their opinion matters
5.motuh to mouth, social media, (force :))
6. union behind the agency by vote. 1$ 1 point, you pay 1000$ a year you have 1000 available points
7.like everything, with $ (How does membership work?)
8. it costs what you are willing to pay. eventually close to nothing 0.0000001% for maintenance maybe for a gym aka shutterstock, hammoks apple ...
9.dedicated photographers will be rising above iphone era with their creations not their tools
10. smartpone photographers are welcomme to join (side note)
11. leave the prices where they are, todays prices are ok for buyers and seller, commissions to producers isthe main complain
12. agencies are sellers not buyers! you cut them off completely, hardest thing to do (not impossible!) 
13. union is the business, we take them out not vice versa

Some other important aspects you forgot to mention
communication channels must be setup initially
we are already having this discussion inside of a union (this forum, global effort that should not be forgotten)
someone somewhere should assume responsibility for the first steps
some of us should take the risk and bet some money. legal framework i believe will be expensive for a person but cheaper for few of us together
term union i find it to be old, meaningless and scary for the old timers, lets address it collective business (will affects russian contributors)

wpo is dying or already dead or  in the pockets of corporations, but they still may have something to say( experience at least)

i am thinking of a great example of our times, living proof that communities, even virtual one are very powerful
in the rc world (drones) open source communities are beating the crap out of corporations

If my arguments have any impact on you feel free to reply
and yes we should blow some smoke

Best regards, Jack
 



 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 17:24 by ammit »

« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2017, 02:31 »
+4
It is so much easier than this. Just refuse to sign up with agencies that have terrible terms. They would soon be back to taking 15-20% as they should be (which is what we would be paying for marketing anyway). But no, we can't even do that, let alone the massive effort and expense of setting up our own agency.

ShadySue

« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2017, 02:46 »
0
.

« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2017, 03:59 »
+2
It is so much easier than this. Just refuse to sign up with agencies that have terrible terms. They would soon be back to taking 15-20% as they should be (which is what we would be paying for marketing anyway). But no, we can't even do that, let alone the massive effort and expense of setting up our own agency.
I agree.  We could also put more pressure on buyers not to use sites that make it very difficult for us to make money.  It would be easy for them to switch to sites that have similar prices but pay us more, enabling us to supply better quality images on a higher budget.  It isn't just contributors that lose if they keep using istock.

Tror

« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2017, 08:42 »
0
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2017, 08:51 »
+3
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2017, 08:54 »
0
There have been times when some sites have gone too far even for the TOC's to cover them but lawyers aren't cheap and they are the only guaranteed winners.

Tror

« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2017, 09:03 »
0
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.


« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2017, 09:18 »
+2
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

I take it then that your lawyer would not advise you to sign up with these agencies.

Tror

« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2017, 09:31 »
0
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

I take it then that your lawyer would not advise you to sign up with these agencies.

That is up to us what we sign up, but fact is - signed up or not - many elements are invalid, others seem to be valid but the agencies break it, and other aspects they analyzed are not appearing in the TOS but under US legislation apparently you can hold them responsible for damages - copyright infringement is a big word here for example.

Just "Do not sign up if you do not agree" is not good enough. Companies like individuals cannot just dictate any Terms and put themselves above the applicable law. Educate them like Dogs, otherwise it will be (and actually IS) a mess. It is up to us to defend it.

But I appreciate your effort defending the Agencies interest :-)

ShadySue

« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2017, 09:34 »
+2
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

I take it then that your lawyer would not advise you to sign up with these agencies.

That is up to us what we sign up, but fact is - signed up or not - many elements are invalid, others seem to be valid but the agencies break it, and other aspects they analyzed are not appearing in the TOS but under US legislation apparently you can hold them responsible for damages - copyright infringement is a big word here for example.

Just "Do not sign up if you do not agree" is not good enough. Companies like individuals cannot just dictate any Terms and put themselves above the applicable law. Educate them like Dogs, otherwise it will be (and actually IS) a mess. It is up to us to defend it.

But I appreciate your effort defending the Agencies interest :-)

How is 'do not sign up to these agencies' defending the agencies?

Tror

« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2017, 09:39 »
0
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

I take it then that your lawyer would not advise you to sign up with these agencies.

That is up to us what we sign up, but fact is - signed up or not - many elements are invalid, others seem to be valid but the agencies break it, and other aspects they analyzed are not appearing in the TOS but under US legislation apparently you can hold them responsible for damages - copyright infringement is a big word here for example.

Just "Do not sign up if you do not agree" is not good enough. Companies like individuals cannot just dictate any Terms and put themselves above the applicable law. Educate them like Dogs, otherwise it will be (and actually IS) a mess. It is up to us to defend it.

But I appreciate your effort defending the Agencies interest :-)

How is 'do not sign up to these agencies' defending the agencies?

Defending the agencies refers that the poster implied that we cannot legally do anything against the situation after signing up or we should not sign up in first place. It would be rather constructive to point out the week spots or discuss how other TOS of other companies in similar constellations got treated in front of a court than taking a shortcut and say : If you don`t like it do not sign up" and end the discussion with that :-)

Neither we nor the Agencies are perfect. It is still a new market. Markets and business relationships grow over time and almost always there is some rough ride included. Conditions get formed by maturity, errors, mistakes, lawsuits, broken contracts, etc. Just throw away everything does not help neither party.

Conditions have to be challenged and questioned.

Instead of wasting time with games like "who said what and is it right" why not consult a lawyer by yourself? After the discussion I had with this guy I am quite convinced that we, the contributors, would have a good standing in many cases. You just need a well defined actual case of one contributor in many occasions.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 09:45 by Tror »

« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2017, 09:52 »
0
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

I take it then that your lawyer would not advise you to sign up with these agencies.

That is up to us what we sign up, but fact is - signed up or not - many elements are invalid, others seem to be valid but the agencies break it, and other aspects they analyzed are not appearing in the TOS but under US legislation apparently you can hold them responsible for damages - copyright infringement is a big word here for example.

Just "Do not sign up if you do not agree" is not good enough. Companies like individuals cannot just dictate any Terms and put themselves above the applicable law. Educate them like Dogs, otherwise it will be (and actually IS) a mess. It is up to us to defend it.

But I appreciate your effort defending the Agencies interest :-)

How is 'do not sign up to these agencies' defending the agencies?

Defending the agencies refers to imply that we cannot legally do anything against the situation after signing up or we should not sign up in first place. It would be rather constructive to point out the week spots or discuss how other TOS of other companies in similar constellations got treated in front of a court than taking a shortcut and say : If you don`t like it do not sign up" and end the discussion with that :-)

How did these similar constellations get together?
As individuals our competition are other contributors and the agencies are our partners or so they like to say.  If we want a say we need the clout of the constellation, the stars here go their own way. 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 10:17 by obj owl »

« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2017, 12:04 »
+2
I don't see what's so hard to understand. This is textbook contract law. The agency offers a service. They will pay you to sell your images in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. You agree. When you sign up and click the little button that says you agree to the terms and conditions, it's the same as a signature on a contract. However, unlike many other contracts, this one is not binding. Either party can end it at any time. If the agency thinks you have violated the terms they cancel your account. If you think the agency has violated the terms you cancel the account.

You guys think you should be able to renegotiate the terms of the contract now that you realize they're not as good as you hoped. But you can't. You have no L E V E R A G E. Deal with it or cancel your account. Simple.

You want to hire a lawyer to go over 10 years of activity across all the agencies hoping you can find a weakness and sue them? Great plan. A good lawyer costs between $300 to $500 per hour and you want them to go over 10 years of records? So you end up paying $400,000 for a chance to find a loophole and make an extra $100 in some class action lawsuit? Brilliant.

Tror

« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2017, 12:42 »
+3
I don't see what's so hard to understand. This is textbook contract law. The agency offers a service. They will pay you to sell your images in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. You agree. When you sign up and click the little button that says you agree to the terms and conditions, it's the same as a signature on a contract. However, unlike many other contracts, this one is not binding. Either party can end it at any time. If the agency thinks you have violated the terms they cancel your account. If you think the agency has violated the terms you cancel the account.

You guys think you should be able to renegotiate the terms of the contract now that you realize they're not as good as you hoped. But you can't. You have no L E V E R A G E. Deal with it or cancel your account. Simple.

You want to hire a lawyer to go over 10 years of activity across all the agencies hoping you can find a weakness and sue them? Great plan. A good lawyer costs between $300 to $500 per hour and you want them to go over 10 years of records? So you end up paying $400,000 for a chance to find a loophole and make an extra $100 in some class action lawsuit? Brilliant.

Wow. So much negativity, motivation to find reasons why we cant change anything, lack of understanding of legalities and even lack of capacity of even reading and / or understanding my post combined leaves me speechless.

I am 25 years in the IP business now and have seen many things, but I cannot believe why me and other people get attacked for making constructive hints in FAVOR of the contributors which are actually valid.

What a sad place.

I am out of here.....

« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2017, 13:30 »
+3
I don't see what's so hard to understand. This is textbook contract law. The agency offers a service. They will pay you to sell your images in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. You agree. When you sign up and click the little button that says you agree to the terms and conditions, it's the same as a signature on a contract. However, unlike many other contracts, this one is not binding. Either party can end it at any time. If the agency thinks you have violated the terms they cancel your account. If you think the agency has violated the terms you cancel the account.

You guys think you should be able to renegotiate the terms of the contract now that you realize they're not as good as you hoped. But you can't. You have no L E V E R A G E. Deal with it or cancel your account. Simple.

You want to hire a lawyer to go over 10 years of activity across all the agencies hoping you can find a weakness and sue them? Great plan. A good lawyer costs between $300 to $500 per hour and you want them to go over 10 years of records? So you end up paying $400,000 for a chance to find a loophole and make an extra $100 in some class action lawsuit? Brilliant.

Wow. So much negativity, motivation to find reasons why we cant change anything, lack of understanding of legalities and even lack of capacity of even reading and / or understanding my post combined leaves me speechless.

I am 25 years in the IP business now and have seen many things, but I cannot believe why me and other people get attacked for making constructive hints in FAVOR of the contributors which are actually valid.

What a sad place.

I am out of here.....

Negativity? It's called reality. How the world works is how the world works. Courts of law will not allow you to renegotiate terms of a contract just because you suddenly want more than you agreed to when you signed the contract. If you are of sound mind and not under duress then the contract is legal and the best you could hope for is to get out of the contract, in other words cancel it, which is exactly what you can do here. No one is attacking you with negativity we're just giving you the facts from the real world.

Accusing others of negativity and lacking understanding of legalities when you can't even wrap your head around the idea of a contract is bizarre. Good luck to you.

Photodune Reject

« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2017, 13:39 »
+1
I don't see what's so hard to understand. This is textbook contract law. The agency offers a service. They will pay you to sell your images in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. You agree. When you sign up and click the little button that says you agree to the terms and conditions, it's the same as a signature on a contract. However, unlike many other contracts, this one is not binding. Either party can end it at any time. If the agency thinks you have violated the terms they cancel your account. If you think the agency has violated the terms you cancel the account.

You guys think you should be able to renegotiate the terms of the contract now that you realize they're not as good as you hoped. But you can't. You have no L E V E R A G E. Deal with it or cancel your account. Simple.

You want to hire a lawyer to go over 10 years of activity across all the agencies hoping you can find a weakness and sue them? Great plan. A good lawyer costs between $300 to $500 per hour and you want them to go over 10 years of records? So you end up paying $400,000 for a chance to find a loophole and make an extra $100 in some class action lawsuit? Brilliant.

Wow. So much negativity, motivation to find reasons why we cant change anything, lack of understanding of legalities and even lack of capacity of even reading and / or understanding my post combined leaves me speechless.

I am 25 years in the IP business now and have seen many things, but I cannot believe why me and other people get attacked for making constructive hints in FAVOR of the contributors which are actually valid.

What a sad place.

I am out of here.....

there goes another one (Old Queen song- "Another one bites dust and another one gone!")  :(
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 14:25 by Photodune Reject »

« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2017, 17:37 »
+4
People have looked at class-action lawsuits against some of the sites before.  There was one I remember that didn't interest me but I signed up to the mailing list to keep an eye on what they were doing.  It stopped when the lawyer requested funds to start the ball rolling and I think most people could see that it was high risk and the only person guaranteed to have a good outcome was the lawyer.  We have the option to leave sites if we don't like what they're doing, I just wish more people used that option.


JimP

« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2017, 07:54 »
0

In order to have a union and negotiate terms we'd have to have some kind of leverage. We don't.

I am sad to agree, but this has been the problem ever since things started to go south,  and it has only gotten worse.

Without power or leverage the union has no way to bargin. Find something we can control to negotiate, before hiring laywers or any talk of starting a union. Otherwise there's no point in any of this discussion. The End

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