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Agency Based Discussion => iStockPhoto.com => Topic started by: bittersweet on December 09, 2008, 17:15

Title: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 09, 2008, 17:15
http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=80951&page=1
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: lisafx on December 09, 2008, 17:22
Thanks for the headsup.  Sounds ideal!  If it works it may be the best search results in the industry.

Only question I have is will non-exclusives still be at the back of the bus or do we get equal placement according to the applicable search terms?
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: shank_ali on December 09, 2008, 17:30
[url]http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=80951&page=1[/url]

best match is going to reward good keywording....bollocks
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 09, 2008, 17:31
Well, if they mean what they say, their primary goal is to get the best match in front of the buyer. This would mean the best keyword match based on the keyword ranking they've done. As it is now, the keywords may be all the same for images showing up, but for some they would not be as accurate as others, and other less relevant factors are weighing more heavily on the order of the results.

With the new system, it sounds like the boost will be given to those files which have actually been downloaded as a result of being found with that keyword.

I guess it will depend on how many files end up with the same statistics. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out. From the multiple references to "very different", I'd say that it might not shake out the way some (many) might expect it to.

Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 09, 2008, 17:32
[url]http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=80951&page=1[/url]

best match is going to reward good keywording....bollocks


Exactly!

I think. :)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: melastmohican on December 09, 2008, 17:43
Are we going to see this keyword ranking somewhere? So we can remove keywords that drags us down or replace them with better ones.

It looks like they are introducing something like Google's search engine optimization (SEO).
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: leaf on December 09, 2008, 17:43
well either good or bad, it will be an interesting shaking of the box
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 09, 2008, 17:44
OK so we will need every brains to know how exactly it will work now... To start next week

To know like who will be on first page when every files will have 5 extremely relevent keywords
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: jsnover on December 09, 2008, 17:49
Proof of the pudding as they say.

Let's see what happens once this is implemented, both to search results - do you get a nice mix of images, old and new, etc. - and to our sales.

Where will vectors end up? They've been trashed in the best match for a while now, so I hope they resurface (I'ld like to start back on that tack again, but have been contributing images only because it seemed a waste to dump vectors into a search that trashed them).
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: madelaide on December 09, 2008, 17:53
Quote
With the launch of our new keyword ranking system the culmination of years of work by thousands of people will come to fruition, providing iStock clients with what we think will be the most impressive and most exact search results, for community created media, found anywhere on the planet.

This kind of assertation scares me.  :)

Regards,
Adelaide
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 09, 2008, 17:55
Proof of the pudding as they say.

Let's see what happens once this is implemented, both to search results - do you get a nice mix of images, old and new, etc. - and to our sales.

Where will vectors end up? They've been trashed in the best match for a while now, so I hope they resurface (I'ld like to start back on that tack again, but have been contributing images only because it seemed a waste to dump vectors into a search that trashed them).

It has been suggested (though not confirmed by anyone at all) that this latest best match was to allow those files for which data had not been collected to "rise" in order to rank the keywords. This would explain the older files being sold, and the most popular being pushed back. It does not, however, explain an across the board handicap assigned to non-exclusive files (as some have believed it happening).

Interesting theory anyway.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 09, 2008, 17:55
Quote
With the launch of our new keyword ranking system the culmination of years of work by thousands of people will come to fruition, providing iStock clients with what we think will be the most impressive and most exact search results, for community created media, found anywhere on the planet.

This kind of assertation scares me.  :)

Regards,
Adelaide

I think it's just a euphemism for "Please, please, God, let this work how it's supposed to!"
 :D

Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: stormchaser on December 09, 2008, 18:00
From a buyer view, will relieve some frustration. When I did active buying, the worst was getting images returned on search that were totally irrelevant. It just made me abandon searched much sooner.

From a submiiter viewpoint, weighting of each image based on it's own merit would be great. Let's hope it works.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: stokfoto on December 09, 2008, 18:01
I don't know how it will affect us yet but I am glad they are at least making a change(I hope it will work for most of us)fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: traveler1116 on December 09, 2008, 18:03
The last two recent best match changes cut my sales by almost 50% both times, no optimism here.  But what can we do except wait and see.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Dreamframer on December 09, 2008, 18:07
Oh, lets not be so pessimistic. Maybe it will work OK. :)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: fullvalue on December 09, 2008, 18:16
This should be interesting.  Everytime Istock "wiki's" one of my files, sales on that file plummet there and increase elsewhere.  (And buyers are finding it using the deleted terms).  I don't see how the new best match will solve that.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 09, 2008, 18:29
A little more about the "blend":

Quote
Posted By rogermexico:
Quote
Posted By kelvinjay:
Quote
Posted By kkthompson:
On 2008-12-09 15:09:33, bitter wrote:

For artists it means a massive shift. The results for everyone, are going to be very, very different.


Given that massive changes to the best match are one of the main complaints in any best match thread, it will certainly be interesting to see how this one pans out. I guess we'll just have to wait & see...

Yeah, I know it's kind of a contradictory sounding message, but the goal is to have one last big shake so that we can move to something more stable. By blending this ranked keyword data into the algorithm, it should make it on the whole more stable. In the past we've been seeing really wild swings whenever the guys have gone into tweak the mix - this is aimed at alleviating those swings and giving us something more reliable.

Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: pet_chia on December 09, 2008, 18:32
A possible way to get non-biased people to accurately grade the quality of keywords would be to provide a "rate keywords" button with every image.

The rankings would have to be weighted according to how many images one has *downloaded* (purchased).  Those who only upload (sell) images would have zero weight attached to the rankings they submit.  Those who both download and upload would be weighted according to (number_of_downloads) minus (number_of_uploads), to prevent individuals or gangs of uploaders from buying a few images so that they can then vote themselves or their pals upwards.  To prevent contributors from establishing sock puppet downloading accounts, the length of time a downloader has been actively purchasing images would also have to be weighted in.  I.e., if you suddenly announced this feature, you would have to ignore rankings from contributors who suddenly create a new downloading account in order to give themselves a boost.

Hopefully customers who find that they have been victimized by keyword spam would be motivated to give the offending files a "zero (most keywords are spam)" rating, and when they find a good file they would give it a "five (all keywords are accurate)".  It would be easy to flag contributors who mysteriously receive a lot of zeroes/ones and a lot of four/fives, to check whether the high ratings are suspicious (e.g. originating from a small number of buyers).

Likewise, the image quality ratings should be strongly weighted towards *customer* opinions, and (net) contributor ratings should be either ignored or else given a completely different category.

Most images would probably not get any rank, so a contributor's "average" (per image) ranking would have to be used in the best match.  I.e. if they have uploaded 1000 images and 50 of them are ranked, then the average rank assigned to those 50 images is used to weight all of the contributors' photos in the best match.

If the rankings of image and keyword quality are more "real" (from the customers point of view, with the biggest customers having the biggest say) then they could be made a significant part of the best match.  These rankings would help turn the focus from "contributor oriented" and biased, towards "customer oriented".  In other words, let money talk and B.S. walk.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 09, 2008, 18:33
I don't see how a search algorithm could see what is the subject in the image and look at the keywords if they are relevent... Then how else it could work if it's not by the one with less keywords. I don't know, I'm just asking??

I hope to see my best files in front this day, because my portfolio is actually in the best position to have sales since one of the latest best match change. Without saying that I have a good overall search result. But speeching of my own portfolio sorted by best match it was nice lately

A little more about the "blend":

Posted By kkthompson:
On 2008-12-09 15:09:33, bitter wrote:

For artists it means a massive shift. The results for everyone, are going to be very, very different.

OMG now I'm lost  ::)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 09, 2008, 18:49
I don't see how a search algorithm could see what is the subject in the image and look at the keywords if they are relevent...

It can't see the image, but it can tell if an image was purchased as a result of a search with that keyword. If it was, then it means it is likely a relevant keyword. (There will be some exceptions surely, but overall I'd think this would be more accurate than not.)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: crazychristina on December 09, 2008, 18:57
My interpretation of keyword ranking is a little different, so it will be interesting to see how the system is actually implemented. I see it as the order of a keyword in a list (and maybe the number of words in the list) determines how much weight it has, not some arbitrary? weighting determined by istock. But maybe I'm wrong
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: sharpshot on December 09, 2008, 19:19
I get the feeling we will all have to go through every keyword again, like we did with disambiguation.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: cdwheatley on December 09, 2008, 19:20
Does this mean???? that if an image for example: a picture of a woman sitting in a chair on the grass.
Say it has 3 keywords "woman, chair, grass"
A buyer searches for the keyword "woman" and buys the image. Now the image will rank higher under the keyword "woman" but will not rank higher under the keywords "grass and chair". Another happy shopper buys the image by searching keywords "woman, chair" now image moves up best match for "woman and chair" but not for keyword "grass". Individual keyword ranking would be great as long as the image is not penalized for having the relevant keyword "grass".
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: madelaide on December 09, 2008, 19:20
Maybe they will (finally) also evaluate relevance by searching title and description.

Regards,
Adelaide
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 09, 2008, 19:27
Maybe they will (finally) also evaluate relevance by searching title and description.

Regards,
Adelaide
LOL..You really like how DT search work :)

I was searching an image today on IS and I caught myself to think it would be easier to search by title as you say
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 09, 2008, 19:31
Does this mean???? that if an image for example: a picture of a woman sitting in a chair on the grass.
Say it has 3 keywords "woman, chair, grass"
A buyer searches for the keyword "woman" and buys the image. Now the image will rank higher under the keyword "woman" but will not rank higher under the keywords "grass and chair". Another happy shopper buys the image by searching keywords "woman, chair" now image moves up best match for "woman and chair" but not for keyword "grass". Individual keyword ranking would be great as long as the image is not penalized for having the relevant keyword "grass".
It would be ok, but again if it's not penalizing the sales made from exposure. Like the ones from lightboxes or the file of the week and everything
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: PeterChigmaroff on December 09, 2008, 19:32
I find it interesting that it all comes down to keywords, lack of perceptible noise, artifacts, filtering, shadows etc. and seems to have little to do with the actual image.

Peter
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on December 09, 2008, 19:36
Maybe they will (finally) also evaluate relevance by searching title and description.

Regards,
Adelaide

Doubtful, since they aren't translatable, and easily spammable.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on December 09, 2008, 19:38
My interpretation of keyword ranking is a little different, so it will be interesting to see how the system is actually implemented. I see it as the order of a keyword in a list (and maybe the number of words in the list) determines how much weight it has, not some arbitrary? weighting determined by istock. But maybe I'm wrong

Yes, you're wrong, in this case:
"A long time ago we developed an algorithm to rank keywords on each file. Since then, we've been tracking data for every single file on iStock. Guess what? It works."
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 09, 2008, 19:42
Maybe they will (finally) also evaluate relevance by searching title and description.

Regards,
Adelaide

Doubtful, since they aren't translatable, and easily spammable.
It work at DT at least. I never saw spamming in the title. And I think you can't put 2 times the same word in the description or title. And more I think that if you have more than 5 words in the desc.. they get less relevent. But I must find the right article to be sure
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: cdwheatley on December 09, 2008, 19:43
Does this mean???? that if an image for example: a picture of a woman sitting in a chair on the grass.
Say it has 3 keywords "woman, chair, grass"
A buyer searches for the keyword "woman" and buys the image. Now the image will rank higher under the keyword "woman" but will not rank higher under the keywords "grass and chair". Another happy shopper buys the image by searching keywords "woman, chair" now image moves up best match for "woman and chair" but not for keyword "grass". Individual keyword ranking would be great as long as the image is not penalized for having the relevant keyword "grass".
It would be ok, but again if it's not penalizing the sales made from exposure. Like the ones from lightboxes or the file of the week and everything

Good point. Maybe they could just limit the best match rating of files to those that have been found by direct keyword search. I know on dreamstime a lot of sales have no keyword search associated with the file purchase. Get hit for self promotion would suck to say the least.

I thought I read that this was only going to be part of the best match also.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: borg on December 09, 2008, 20:12
We will see!

But, this is still "zero sum game"...

Without more buyers... :-\
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: shank_ali on December 10, 2008, 02:25
My interpretation of keyword ranking is a little different, so it will be interesting to see how the system is actually implemented. I see it as the order of a keyword in a list (and maybe the number of words in the list) determines how much weight it has, not some arbitrary? weighting determined by istock. But maybe I'm wrong

Yes, you're wrong, in this case:
"A long time ago we developed an algorithm to rank keywords on each file. Since then, we've been tracking data for every single file on iStock. Guess what? It works."
It's ok quoting MrThompson but has anyone thought about WHY istockphoto is changing best match and tiering the collection.
IMO they are nervous... are you sitting down ....$1.1 million payed a week to contributors which is about 30%-40% payout.So we can assume istock makes$ 2 million from OUR work.
I have looked through the other micro sites collections these past 2 months and if istock still thinks it offers the best images at the best prices they are mistaken.
I can only keep uploading what i consider to be stock worthy images to istockphoto but i certaintly dont view the company through 'rose titnted spectacles ' anymore.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: DanP68 on December 10, 2008, 04:26
Are we going to see this keyword ranking somewhere? So we can remove keywords that drags us down or replace them with better ones.


I interpret the ranking to work a little differently.  It seems to me that images will rank separately for each keyword.  For instance, say you have an image of a cow, and keywords: cow, milk.  If buyers DL your image after searching for "cow," your image will be ranked higher for every new search for the word "cow."  If buyers fail to DL your image after searching for "milk," your image will be ranked lower for every new search for keyword "milk."

I could be wrong, but I believe that is what the new system purports to do.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 10, 2008, 07:21
Are we going to see this keyword ranking somewhere? So we can remove keywords that drags us down or replace them with better ones.


I interpret the ranking to work a little differently.  It seems to me that images will rank separately for each keyword.  For instance, say you have an image of a cow, and keywords: cow, milk.  If buyers DL your image after searching for "cow," your image will be ranked higher for every new search for the word "cow."  If buyers fail to DL your image after searching for "milk," your image will be ranked lower for every new search for keyword "milk."

I could be wrong, but I believe that is what the new system purports to do.

That would seem to create feedback loops where the same files continue to be downloaded and each download works to secure the spot in the front. Just because another image contains the word "milk" but is NOT chosen to be downloaded, does not mean that the keyword is not appropriate for that image. I don't think there should be a "punishment" attached to not being selected for download.

I'm sure we won't know really know anything until it's up and running, and even then there will probably be a ton of the usual speculation. I hope it's an improvement!!

I always think it's funny that whenever iStock makes some big change, so many people think it is a knee jerk reaction to their impending doom, and not that it could possibly be a project that has been in development over a period of time (in this case, years... or so they say).

Despite their faults, they continue to be the trailblazers in this industry.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: StockManiac on December 10, 2008, 07:22
I interpret the ranking to work a little differently.  It seems to me that images will rank separately for each keyword.  For instance, say you have an image of a cow, and keywords: cow, milk.  If buyers DL your image after searching for "cow," your image will be ranked higher for every new search for the word "cow."  If buyers fail to DL your image after searching for "milk," your image will be ranked lower for every new search for keyword "milk."

But my question is what happens if a buyer purchases the image after searching for "milk", but then your image gets Wiki'd and they remove the word "milk" from your image!!!!
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: DanP68 on December 10, 2008, 08:01
Despite their faults, they continue to be the trailblazers in this industry.


If "trailblazing" refers to independents burning in anger, then I think you hit the nail on the head.   :D  Otherwise, I don't see them doing anything so special.  The InfiniteCollection and EVO are old news, and defunct LuckyOliver did the Sideshow 2 years ago, so whatever midstock offering iStock intends will be at best the fourth entrant into microstock.

As far as their search engine goes, all they really did was copy the Getty model.  And so far, I can't say the search results I get at IS are any better or worse than the search results I get at Shutterstock or anywhere else.  The new incarnation sounds promising, but I'll believe it's the best in the business when I see it. 
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 10, 2008, 08:19
(deleted)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 10, 2008, 13:45
I interpret the ranking to work a little differently.  It seems to me that images will rank separately for each keyword.  For instance, say you have an image of a cow, and keywords: cow, milk.  If buyers DL your image after searching for "cow," your image will be ranked higher for every new search for the word "cow."  If buyers fail to DL your image after searching for "milk," your image will be ranked lower for every new search for keyword "milk."

I could be wrong, but I believe that is what the new system purports to do.
If it manage to work as we say, then I hope IS will understand that speeching of myself, only 60% of my DT sales are made with relevent keywords. Others are from exposure (without keywords) and weird or not fully relevent keywords, sometimes not even in the list. Then I don't know if managing some lightboxes or beeing on front page will be advantaging anymore.

They said they was working on this since a while, I hope they took care of every small details, because it could be easily a mess. Sometimes the more simple solutions are the best, like the DT and SS search engine work.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: helix7 on December 10, 2008, 15:37
I wrote something in the istock forums about this, but feel compelled to post a less edited version here:

The backslapping at istock over this best match change has me completely baffled. In one thread you've got people talking about how best match killed their sales for the last few months, and then they pop over to the best match 2.0 thread and are saying "Yay best match change again!" Last time I used the phrase "blind loyalty" over there it wasn't exactly received well, but I can't think of any better example of such a phenomenon than this.

As always, best match changes are done with the buyers in mind, and rightfully so. I think istock is making the right move here, catering to buyers even if it pisses off some contributors. But doing so with best match changes often means that many of us end up disappointed with the result. best match changes have been and will remain to be done for the buyers, and definitely not for us.

I'm as hopeful as anyone that this works out positively for everyone. But as a contributor I'm not singing istock's praises for this move and giving them the standing ovation, and I'm baffled as to why anyone else is. Sure it's possible that things could get better for those who suffered because of the last change. But there's an equal chance that things will take another dive for those same people after this one.

The fact of the matter is that best match can hurt a contributor just as easily as it can help them. No doubt, this next best match shift will hurt some people, including some of the same folks who are applauding and cheering "Go istock!" over this announcement. While we all hope the best match change will help everyone in a positive way, we also need to be a little more realistic and not be so surprised when next month there is another thread about best match killing sales with posts by some of the same people who are cheering for istock in today's thread.

Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: crazychristina on December 10, 2008, 15:51
There seems to be the assumption that an improved search engine will significantly improve sales. I personally think that istock has a rather distorted view of what makes good search. Banning conceptual keywords, for a start. Somehow I doubt that they'll be dragging too much market share from other sites with this move. If they do manage it, no doubt others will revamp their search engines to follow suit.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: lisafx on December 10, 2008, 17:48
There seems to be the assumption that an improved search engine will significantly improve sales. I personally think that istock has a rather distorted view of what makes good search. Banning conceptual keywords, for a start. Somehow I doubt that they'll be dragging too much market share from other sites with this move. If they do manage it, no doubt others will revamp their search engines to follow suit.

You are probably right about this.  It does seem like istock's constant messing with the best match is just a way to redistribute the pieces of an ever shrinking pie. 
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 10, 2008, 18:30
Could someone explain me what this sentence exactly mean in Istock language? Taken at the end of the first post
http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=80951&page=1

We will begin pulling leavers and turning dials to slowly turn up ranking in best match starting next week

I tought I was understanding english :)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: jsnover on December 10, 2008, 18:35
I think it means that they will  slowly phase in use of the keyword ranking code. Given their inability to "fix" the banishment of vectors in searches even after they promised there'd be a quick fix for that, I can understand why they'd want to see what happened in practice with the live database.

The current best match doesn't produce a particularly nice mix of search results - it's better than the version where everything new was up front, but it's still got too many chunks of similar material together and the insane use of high views brings forward images that shouldn't be up front.

The only reason for any "yea" responses is that they are actually trying to do something about this. I don't understand all the up front praise before anyone's seen how this actually works. That is the only thing that will matter in the end - what it does, not what their process was in coming up with it or intentions in coding it.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: CofkoCof on December 10, 2008, 18:42
We will begin pulling leavers and turning dials to slowly turn up ranking in best match starting next week
I expect the results to be very interesting. Might have a few good laughs about it. I did some thinking the other day and it will be very hard to get the parameters right. Much much harder than with best match 1.0. And we all know they couldn't do it even with many tries. But then again, do they need to get them right?  8)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 10, 2008, 18:53
Thanks jsnover.

I'm aware of what it would be. I have images of food on table with landscape background. If the search work with how keywords are matching together for example, my images who have landscape and food as keywords would not match that much anymore.

It could work in part this way. They already have linked most of the keywords between them in the CV. It could explain when they say to have worked on this since a long time
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on December 10, 2008, 22:15
The fact of the matter is that best match can hurt a contributor just as easily as it can help them. No doubt, this next best match shift will hurt some people, including some of the same folks who are applauding and cheering "Go istock!" over this announcement. While we all hope the best match change will help everyone in a positive way, we also need to be a little more realistic and not be so surprised when next month there is another thread about best match killing sales with posts by some of the same people who are cheering for istock in today's thread.

I don't see this as a best match change.  This isn't factoring newness from 21% to %30 or something.  This is a fundamental change.  They're incorporating other buyers' satisfaction with a keyword/image relationship to present future buyers with the images that may actually best suit their needs.  It's a relevancy factor, and that hasn't been there before.  I don't think the minority of sales from people who search for "cow" but actually decide to buy a picture of a cookie for some reason, will throw things off too much.

The point is to show the buyers the best results with a relevancy factor, and that saves them time.  Those who save time are happy, and come back, and buy more. 

That's how I see it.  It's what we've been asking for forever.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: crazychristina on December 10, 2008, 22:26
One of the biggest problems with best match (IMO) is the positive feedback factor (in the systems sense). If an image that sells gets preferential placement in search as a result, then it will continue to sell well. It is probably an attempt to prevent this that images that take off have been getting squashed pretty quickly lately (in some recent version of the best match).  It will be interesting to see if this remains a significant problem with the new algorithm in place.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: traveler1116 on December 10, 2008, 22:34
Do you think a lot of exclusives will quit being exclusive if the search actually finds the real best match?  A lot of exclusives have had a pretty big jump in sales since the best match change so this "massive shift", I think thats what they are saying, would probably hurt the exclusives much more than nonexclusives. 
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on December 10, 2008, 22:39
There's no saying that any exclusive/independent factor is or isn't going to change.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: traveler1116 on December 10, 2008, 22:44
Doesn't it necessarily need to change if the criteria for the best match is getting the best image for the buyer?  An exclusive image has no additional value to the buyer, by that I mean the exclusive image can still have been sold thousands of times to other buyer just like a nonexclusive image.  The best match now gives a boost to exclusives, if the new best match does what they say it should don't exclusives lose a lot?  About the same as nonexclusives just lost.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on December 10, 2008, 22:48
This change is about adding in the relevancy factor.  Nothing was stated about changing anything else, although they normally do.  However, if a conscious exclusive/independent weighting was made, I don't see why they'd tweak it too much, especially since they want us to be happy about the new collection.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: traveler1116 on December 10, 2008, 22:53
I am guessing you are right about that they won't change it too much but if this new best match is going get the best search results they need to change it so exclusive or nonexclusive images are equal because there is nothing better for the buyer about exclusive images.  Something has to give, either it isn't the best search or exclusives and nonexclusives need the same best match treatment and that will hurt exclusives now.

I thought it was more than adding a relevancy factor, didn't they say "massive shift"?
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 10, 2008, 23:02
For artists it means a massive shift. The results for everyone, are going to be very, very different. Taken from the best match 2.0 announcement
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: hoi ha on December 10, 2008, 23:02
It's ok quoting MrThompson but has anyone thought about WHY istockphoto is changing best match and tiering the collection.
IMO they are nervous... are you sitting down ....$1.1 million payed a week to contributors which is about 30%-40% payout.So we can assume istock makes$ 2 million from OUR work.
I have looked through the other micro sites collections these past 2 months and if istock still thinks it offers the best images at the best prices they are mistaken.
I can only keep uploading what i consider to be stock worthy images to istockphoto but i certaintly dont view the company through 'rose titnted spectacles ' anymore.

I am still reeling over this comment ...  ;)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: jsnover on December 10, 2008, 23:53
Do you think a lot of exclusives will quit being exclusive if the search actually finds the real best match?  A lot of exclusives have had a pretty big jump in sales since the best match change so this "massive shift", I think thats what they are saying, would probably hurt the exclusives much more than nonexclusives. 

I don't have any more data than you do, but what I saw in the IS forums was a lot of diamond exlusives who'd been whacked by an earlier best match shift report that their sales had gone up a lot as a result of the last big change. I don't think if I saw my sales cut in half and then a few months later restored to their previous levels, I'd think of that as a "big jump" in sales.

The one thing you lose as an exclusive is the ability to measure your images saleability given other search engines. It's therefore a bit harder to know what's a leap and a slump as you don't really have anything independent to measure againt.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: madelaide on December 11, 2008, 04:54
They're incorporating other buyers' satisfaction with a keyword/image relationship to present future buyers with the images that may actually best suit their needs. 

Won't this favour images that had sales already and have been "okayed" by a buyer?

Regards,
Adelaide
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on December 11, 2008, 05:17
Is that wrong?  What better way to see if a keyword is valid for an image, than if a buyer spent money on an image after finding it through that keyword?
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: lagereek on December 11, 2008, 06:26
Is that wrong?  What better way to see if a keyword is valid for an image, than if a buyer spent money on an image after finding it through that keyword?


DITTO!!  100%
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: lisafx on December 11, 2008, 12:35
I am guessing you are right about that they won't change it too much but if this new best match is going get the best search results they need to change it so exclusive or nonexclusive images are equal because there is nothing better for the buyer about exclusive images.  Something has to give, either it isn't the best search or exclusives and nonexclusives need the same best match treatment and that will hurt exclusives now.

I thought it was more than adding a relevancy factor, didn't they say "massive shift"?

I wonder if the new Premium Collection for exclusive images may be a way to address this exclusive vs. non bias in the best match.  I agree that to actually put forward the BEST Match that exclusivity should not be a relevant factor. 

Is it likely that since the premium collection automatically showcases the best of exclusive imagery that the best match in the standard and value collections would be based on the objective standards, regardless of exclusive status? 

Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: jsnover on December 11, 2008, 13:02
I wonder if the new Premium Collection for exclusive images may be a way to address this exclusive vs. non bias in the best match. 

I can't see how that would happen. My expectation is that a very small portion of content will end up in the premium collection - I don't expect anything of mine will be put there. Those people with professional setups (studio or location) are, I think, the ones who'll see their content there. I believe the notion is to provide some incentive to produce the more costly stuff, which is a great idea, but it isn't going to change how a large number of us part timers work.

So that leaves a huge portion of the content in either the bargain bin or the regular collection. I think the exclusive queue, which gives new images an edge of a few days, is probably a fine bias to keep in the best match-v2 results, but otherwise images should sink or swim based on their saleability.

What I have really disliked is watching images that sell move back in the best match ranking, especially if they just sold versus attracted a lot of looky-loos. That seems to be the polar opposite of what should be happening. What was Joe Gough's lovely analogy? Something about taking the hot selling items away from the front of the store and hiding them in a store room in the back so you couldn't find them.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: madelaide on December 11, 2008, 15:22
Is that wrong?  What better way to see if a keyword is valid for an image, than if a buyer spent money on an image after finding it through that keyword?

Well, if image A has keyword 1 that the buyer wanted, it doesn't mean image B doesn't have it too, nor it means that keyword 2 is really ok for image A.  New images may have a more difficult way to find their way up if previous results get too much importance.

Regards,
Adelaide
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: shank_ali on December 11, 2008, 15:39
none exclusives will NEVER EVER have parity with exclusives  on istockphoto...PERIOD.
Now in regards of the new proposal for best match.It will be excatly as it is now... annoying alot of contributors who continually try work it out rather than having alot of different images to temp a broad spectrum of sales so enabling the contributor to  have steady regular sales whatever the best match may be.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 11, 2008, 15:49
Is that wrong?  What better way to see if a keyword is valid for an image, than if a buyer spent money on an image after finding it through that keyword?
I'll repeat it. At Dreamstime, each keywords used for downloading an image is showing in our image stats. 40% of my sales are made from irrelevent keywords or without any keywords. Probably because of some sort of exposure, lightboxes or collections... I don't know?

I simply hope they calculated this in their new best match
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 11, 2008, 16:27
In case any of you missed Bitter's latest input into the discussion:

Quote
Posted By bitter:
Quote

Posted By mikemcd:
I don't know better than anyone else what this new best match shift will do to our sales, but let's take a quick look back at the original message here:

"With best match, we have one, clear goal: to put the best content in front of our clients. We have finite slots on the first page and tens-of-thousands of files vying for those spots."

As always, best match changes are done with the buyers in mind, rightfully so. I think istock is making the right move here, but that often means that many of us end up disappointed with the result. best match changes have been and will remain to be done for the buyers, not for us.

I'm as hopeful as anyone that this works out positively for everyone. But as a contributor I'm not singing istock's praises for this move and giving them the standing ovation, and I'm baffled as to why anyone else is. Some of the same people complaining about slow sales since the last best match change are now here saying "Yay, best match change!" Sure it's possible that things could get better for those who suffered because of the last change. But there's an equal chance that things will take another dive for those same people after this one.

Fingers crossed, I am cautiously optimistic about this. If it works out, great.  But if it doesn't, I won't be back here in the forums next month with the same group who will be scratching their heads saying "What happened to my sales?," as if no one could see that potential result coming.


I'm happy you noticed how carefully I chose my words. We are not promising everyone will like the new best match, nor promising increased royalties to anyone or group in particular. Our goal is to improve the search experience for clients. That's all. We have to assume that the theory of well keyworded files being found and purchased more often than poorly keyworded files is true in this endeavor.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: CofkoCof on December 11, 2008, 16:32
In case any of you missed Bitter's latest input into the discussion:

Quote
Posted By bitter:
Quote

Posted By mikemcd:
I don't know better than anyone else what this new best match shift will do to our sales, but let's take a quick look back at the original message here:

"With best match, we have one, clear goal: to put the best content in front of our clients. We have finite slots on the first page and tens-of-thousands of files vying for those spots."

As always, best match changes are done with the buyers in mind, rightfully so. I think istock is making the right move here, but that often means that many of us end up disappointed with the result. best match changes have been and will remain to be done for the buyers, not for us.

I'm as hopeful as anyone that this works out positively for everyone. But as a contributor I'm not singing istock's praises for this move and giving them the standing ovation, and I'm baffled as to why anyone else is. Some of the same people complaining about slow sales since the last best match change are now here saying "Yay, best match change!" Sure it's possible that things could get better for those who suffered because of the last change. But there's an equal chance that things will take another dive for those same people after this one.

Fingers crossed, I am cautiously optimistic about this. If it works out, great.  But if it doesn't, I won't be back here in the forums next month with the same group who will be scratching their heads saying "What happened to my sales?," as if no one could see that potential result coming.


I'm happy you noticed how carefully I chose my words. We are not promising everyone will like the new best match, nor promising increased royalties to anyone or group in particular. Our goal is to improve the search experience for clients. That's all. We have to assume that the theory of well keyworded files being found and purchased more often than poorly keyworded files is true in this endeavor.

Woo Yay!!!  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 13, 2008, 21:12
I saw small changes everyone! It mixed some files from one page to another. Nothing extreme but it started like the said by this week...
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: crazychristina on December 13, 2008, 21:17
My test case for the istock best match is to type 'business' into the search field and check out the first page (100) results. There are a few changes there from a couple of weeks ago, but not sure that the overall relevance has improved significantly.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 13, 2008, 21:20
My test case for the istock best match is to type 'business' into the search field and check out the first page (100) results. There are a few changes there from a couple of weeks ago, but not sure that the overall relevance has improved significantly.

You are never going to see significant improvements in a search that broad. I doubt that very many real buyers use one word searches that return thousands and thousands of results and don't ever enter additional words to narrow them down.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 13, 2008, 21:31
My test case for the istock best match is to type 'business' into the search field and check out the first page (100) results.
I use my own portfolio sorted by best match. Easier to follow and lot less exhausting to look at (Vaumit face :P)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: hoi ha on December 13, 2008, 22:54
My test case for the istock best match is to type 'business' into the search field and check out the first page (100) results. There are a few changes there from a couple of weeks ago, but not sure that the overall relevance has improved significantly.

Funny - that's exactly what I do as well ... it's the best test IMHO!!
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: vonkara on December 13, 2008, 23:06
You guys really browse the "business" shot !!! Next time if you want a good laugh, browse the "business" videos.

I can't handle when they look at me with their smiles
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 13, 2008, 23:30
What exactly are you testing for? If it is supposed to be indicative of which images might actually be sold, shouldn't it at least be remotely close to the reality of what a buyer might search for? No designer in their right mind is going to come to a site, enter "business" into a search engine, see that their search has yielded 255,328 results, and start flipping pages.

I'm guessing you must not ever actually use the search engine for the purpose of finding a file to purchase which serves a specific need?
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: crazychristina on December 14, 2008, 00:00
However broad the search may be, one would hope that a good best match algorithm would return 100 very relevant images on the first page. A few of the current selection look a bit marginal to me.

BTW, I'm not a designer, but I am the veteran of six steel cage matches on istock, so I do have some experience with the search engine from a buyers perspective.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 14, 2008, 08:44
Okay, then, skimming through the first 100, they all have the keyword "business" and all but one has flames (many blue flames). The one that is not in flames has 95 downloads. IMO, all seem relevant to business, either by concept or by content. I don't really see any that I would be annoyed to get as a result to my broad search for "business".

If the new best match is triggered by successful downloads, it would suggest that once on the front, forever on the front... but hopefully there are other factors that will counterbalance these feedback loops, and they will be revealed as things progress.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: crazychristina on December 14, 2008, 13:12
None would annoy me in a broad search for business either, but I'm OK with conceptual keywords. istock isn't, and how they allow a blank post it note or a set of blank signposts, or lightbulbs to carry the keyword business is beyond me, given their stated policy. I'm sure if I uploaded such images with that keyword they would be rejected. Even computers don't unequivocally convey business (but then I'm in education).
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: hoi ha on December 14, 2008, 22:33
What exactly are you testing for? If it is supposed to be indicative of which images might actually be sold, shouldn't it at least be remotely close to the reality of what a buyer might search for? No designer in their right mind is going to come to a site, enter "business" into a search engine, see that their search has yielded 255,328 results, and start flipping pages.

I'm guessing you must not ever actually use the search engine for the purpose of finding a file to purchase which serves a specific need?

And would you be a buyer, photographer (contributor) or both?
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 14, 2008, 23:36
What exactly are you testing for? If it is supposed to be indicative of which images might actually be sold, shouldn't it at least be remotely close to the reality of what a buyer might search for? No designer in their right mind is going to come to a site, enter "business" into a search engine, see that their search has yielded 255,328 results, and start flipping pages.

I'm guessing you must not ever actually use the search engine for the purpose of finding a file to purchase which serves a specific need?

And would you be a buyer, photographer (contributor) or both?

I am both, but primarily a designer.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: hoi ha on December 15, 2008, 00:19
What exactly are you testing for? If it is supposed to be indicative of which images might actually be sold, shouldn't it at least be remotely close to the reality of what a buyer might search for? No designer in their right mind is going to come to a site, enter "business" into a search engine, see that their search has yielded 255,328 results, and start flipping pages.

I'm guessing you must not ever actually use the search engine for the purpose of finding a file to purchase which serves a specific need?

And would you be a buyer, photographer (contributor) or both?

I am both, but primarily a designer.

So what term do you use to determine the efficacy of a site's search engine? From my perspective "business" is a pretty good determinant - if the site brings up a toddler playing with a mobile phone in the first 20 images then I know the search engine is lousy ... if it turns up all relevant or arguably relevant images then I know the search engine is probably working pretty well ...
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 15, 2008, 01:33
What exactly are you testing for? If it is supposed to be indicative of which images might actually be sold, shouldn't it at least be remotely close to the reality of what a buyer might search for? No designer in their right mind is going to come to a site, enter "business" into a search engine, see that their search has yielded 255,328 results, and start flipping pages.

I'm guessing you must not ever actually use the search engine for the purpose of finding a file to purchase which serves a specific need?

And would you be a buyer, photographer (contributor) or both?

I am both, but primarily a designer.

So what term do you use to determine the efficacy of a site's search engine? From my perspective "business" is a pretty good determinant - if the site brings up a toddler playing with a mobile phone in the first 20 images then I know the search engine is lousy ... if it turns up all relevant or arguably relevant images then I know the search engine is probably working pretty well ...

Obviously a toddler appearing in a business search is not relevant. Unfortunately, the search engine is somewhat handicapped by the potential (and likelihood) or inaccurate keywords attached to the files.

I guess my point is, I don't ever search for a term. Unless what I'm looking for is rare and hard to find, so that there will only be a few to choose from anyway, my search box will be something like:

business woman smiling "looking at camera"

or

"manual worker" "protective workwear" man industrial

or

office man business team


For me, this is a more efficient way to search because my results are narrowed down from the beginning. I do not have time to sort through hundreds of pages of results.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: hoi ha on December 15, 2008, 02:46
What exactly are you testing for? If it is supposed to be indicative of which images might actually be sold, shouldn't it at least be remotely close to the reality of what a buyer might search for? No designer in their right mind is going to come to a site, enter "business" into a search engine, see that their search has yielded 255,328 results, and start flipping pages.

I'm guessing you must not ever actually use the search engine for the purpose of finding a file to purchase which serves a specific need?

And would you be a buyer, photographer (contributor) or both?

I am both, but primarily a designer.

So what term do you use to determine the efficacy of a site's search engine? From my perspective "business" is a pretty good determinant - if the site brings up a toddler playing with a mobile phone in the first 20 images then I know the search engine is lousy ... if it turns up all relevant or arguably relevant images then I know the search engine is probably working pretty well ...

Obviously a toddler appearing in a business search is not relevant. Unfortunately, the search engine is somewhat handicapped by the potential (and likelihood) or inaccurate keywords attached to the files.

I guess my point is, I don't ever search for a term. Unless what I'm looking for is rare and hard to find, so that there will only be a few to choose from anyway, my search box will be something like:

business woman smiling "looking at camera"

or

"manual worker" "protective workwear" man industrial

or

office man business team


For me, this is a more efficient way to search because my results are narrowed down from the beginning. I do not have time to sort through hundreds of pages of results.

I think you may have mis-read or I may not have been terribly clear - sorry about that -  of course I would never use "business" as a search term if I was looking for an image - what I was saying (and I think what averil was saying as well but I would not want to put words in her mouth) is, as mentioned, we use the term "business" to determine the efficacy of the search engine only - not when searching for a particular image - it would of course be a collosal waste of time wading through the thousands of images the term "business" would produce ...
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on December 15, 2008, 03:11
Well, I thought I understand what you meant. I thought you were trying to determine how the best match might affect you by judging the arrangement of the results to your one word search. I was just questioning what those findings really represent when they are not typical of how most buyers search (based on my own practices, and those of other buyers who have discussed this on the forums before).

However, if you are simply making a judgement about the effectiveness of 200,000+ results based on the first 100 images of a one word search, then no, I guess I do not understand the point. 

It's okay though. It is not necessary for me to see the purpose in what you feel you need to do.  :)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: madelaide on December 15, 2008, 04:57
So what term do you use to determine the efficacy of a site's search engine? From my perspective "business" is a pretty good determinant - if the site brings up a toddler playing with a mobile phone in the first 20 images then I know the search engine is lousy ... if it turns up all relevant or arguably relevant images then I know the search engine is probably working pretty well ...

I have to agree with whatalife that the toddler image - unless done in a way to simulate an adult businessmasn - would have been wrongly keyworded, so it's not the engine's fault.

I would consider a limitation of the search engine typing "white dog" and getting brown dogs in white background. If the search engine looked at title and description, maybe the right ones would show first.  Try this in DT and you get a slightly better result than IS.

Regards,
Adelaide
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: hoi ha on December 15, 2008, 05:10
this is getting funny  ;D ... I think we are all going aroud in circles about something so, well, unimportant ... and probably we are all trying to say exactly the same thing ...
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: lisafx on December 15, 2008, 19:19
Well, I thought I understand what you meant. I thought you were trying to determine how the best match might affect you by judging the arrangement of the results to your one word search. I was just questioning what those findings really represent when they are not typical of how most buyers search (based on my own practices, and those of other buyers who have discussed this on the forums before).


The practices you outlined are definitely the most sensible way to get good results from any search engine IMHO. 

However on Dreamstime we can see the words searched for when our images are purchased and you would be astonished at the frequency of one word and/or two word searches!   (Not to mention the conceptual keywords used to buy our images which are quite often wiki'd into nonexistence on istock) 

I can only assume this is because there are a lot of people buying micro who are not professional designers or even necessarily that tech/search savvy. 

Whatever the reason, it would be a good idea for programmers to bear that in mind when tweaking the search engines on the sites, and also for us as contributors to remember when keywording. 
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: epantha on December 16, 2008, 14:41
Hey! I just looked at my portfolio using best match and my best seller which was sitting in the dead last position for weeks has now moved up 17 slots. Woo hoo! 8)

One day later and the bestseller image has moved up 62 slots from the last position. Definitely a shift going on. Yay!
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Phil on December 16, 2008, 15:37
I wonder if the new Premium Collection for exclusive images may be a way to address this exclusive vs. non bias in the best match. 

I can't see how that would happen. My expectation is that a very small portion of content will end up in the premium collection - I don't expect anything of mine will be put there. Those people with professional setups (studio or location) are, I think, the ones who'll see their content there. I believe the notion is to provide some incentive to produce the more costly stuff, which is a great idea, but it isn't going to change how a large number of us part timers work.

So that leaves a huge portion of the content in either the bargain bin or the regular collection. I think the exclusive queue, which gives new images an edge of a few days, is probably a fine bias to keep in the best match-v2 results, but otherwise images should sink or swim based on their saleability.

What I have really disliked is watching images that sell move back in the best match ranking, especially if they just sold versus attracted a lot of looky-loos. That seems to be the polar opposite of what should be happening. What was Joe Gough's lovely analogy? Something about taking the hot selling items away from the front of the store and hiding them in a store room in the back so you couldn't find them.

just noticed I have an image which had just '20 downloads per month' not have a sale in 4 weeks, considering it has a cross as main subject its sad that they killed it before christmas. 

I think I could just about pick all the best match changes.  another one now down to 10 / month as it hasn't sold in 8 weeks.  think I'll stop looking :(
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: CofkoCof on December 22, 2008, 18:13
I'm noticing some changes in best match, my best sellers are comming towards the front and are starting to sell again. Unfortuntelly vectors are getting pushed even further back (if I sort my portfolio by best match) also the newest files aren't getting any attention.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Read_My_Rights on December 22, 2008, 18:54
ditto
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Graffoto on December 22, 2008, 22:56
Hmmm,

I just did a sort by best match.
The very first file is one of my best sellers.
Everything else on the first page are my newest files.
Some have sold once and some are so new that they have no sales yet at all.

I don't do vectors, so I cannot comment on them being pushed back.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: epantha on December 29, 2008, 14:11
OK good. Best day for downloads this month :)
All my best sellers are back in the front where they were before my sales plummeted.
I'm guessing that once the holidays are over I should do a lot better than Oct., Nov., and Dec.
Very optimistic now. :D
Title: i think i am liking this new best match
Post by: Graffoto on December 30, 2008, 20:59
My very small portfolio (I have 273 files) usually gets from zero up to a whopping two downloads on any given day.
Today, I had four!

OK Sean, no snickering  :D

Considering this is two days before New Years eve and should be very, very slow I am optimistic that this new algorithm is actually helping the buyers find the files that they are looking for.

Lets all keep our fingers crossed that this is the real deal.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: fotografer on December 31, 2008, 03:43
Wow, that is so much better.  My flamers that were on the last page are now back on the first page and my 'crap' is now rigt where it should be on the last page.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: PaulieWalnuts on January 01, 2009, 09:34
My good sellers that got banished to the back of my portfolio and searches are back at the front. I wonder what happened because I don't think this is best match 2.0. I thought I read they were supposed to start rolling it out slowly in January(?)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: nebojsak on January 02, 2009, 13:28
Edited some keywords on a freshly uploaded stuff (just to match the images better), and they are up in the best match ranking. It seems something's really happening.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: travelstock on January 05, 2009, 14:02
So is the best match v2.0 in place, or are we still seeing something in between? For me, there's definitely been a change that started about mid December - which sent some files that were on the last page all the way to #1...

lets see what impact it has...
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Kngkyle on January 05, 2009, 14:11
There has definitely been a change. What were at the bottom of my gallery before (top selling files) are now at the front.

EDIT: A quick search using one of the most relevant and popular keywords showed my photo on the 1st page 2nd photo. It is actually possible to find my images in the search again woo.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: CofkoCof on January 08, 2009, 11:58
Wow, that is so much better.  My flamers that were on the last page are now back on the first page and my 'crap' is now rigt where it should be on the last page.
Same here. I'm also getting about the same ammount of downloads as before the October best match change. Hoping it stays like this :D
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: araminta on January 08, 2009, 13:48
It's indeed cool to see sales back at the pre-shake level, but it's also somewhat frightening to see the impact on sales best match algorithm has.

One of my good seller (200+ downloads) had 0 download from begining of September to begining of December (3 months), but has been downloaded 8 times between Jan 01 and Jan 07.

One can wonder how important are keywords and picture quality on sale when you see the huge influence the best match algorith has  :-\
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: CofkoCof on January 31, 2009, 04:32
A little update on the best match from this topic (http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=83392&page=1):
Quote
So you can probably tell that a lot of things have been happening here at headquarters in the deep plumbing on the site. You've seen the first results of the ranked keywords in the enhanced "More Like This" feature. You seem excited by it, and we certainly are.

We've been testing best match 2.0 with ranked keywords internally on our dev environment for quite some time. Before we push it live, we want to try it on the live data to see exactly how it goes. So next week, along with some other tweaks, best match 2.0 will be launched as an internal beta. Yup, admins will be able to select it from the drop-down menu of search results. If all goes well, you'll see it pushed live about a week after that. We're not giving an exact date yet, as we have a lot of other stuff to get our the door (CSS & Audio for example). But rest assured we're moving as quickly as we can.

The next few months is going to be very exiting. Once we give birth to Audio, many things will be coming to fruition after a long time in the pipeline.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: borg on January 31, 2009, 05:45
From that topic on IS:

It is good news! Especially that, that the search results we get today are not generated by BM2. Info like this can save a lot of speculation.

Perhaps this can explain none of the sale from last Friday in my portfolio ...
Before that,January was excellent...

So, is "Best Match 2.0." working now or not!?

I like it veeery much!! :-*
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: CofkoCof on January 31, 2009, 06:31
Look at the bold text:
Quote
So you can probably tell that a lot of things have been happening here at headquarters in the deep plumbing on the site. You've seen the first results of the ranked keywords in the enhanced "More Like This" feature. You seem excited by it, and we certainly are.

We've been testing best match 2.0 with ranked keywords internally on our dev environment for quite some time. Before we push it live, we want to try it on the live data to see exactly how it goes. So next week, along with some other tweaks, best match 2.0 will be launched as an internal beta. Yup, admins will be able to select it from the drop-down menu of search results. If all goes well, you'll see it pushed live about a week after that. We're not giving an exact date yet, as we have a lot of other stuff to get our the door (CSS & Audio for example). But rest assured we're moving as quickly as we can.

The next few months is going to be very exiting. Once we give birth to Audio, many things will be coming to fruition after a long time in the pipeline.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: shank_ali on January 31, 2009, 10:13
Contributors on istockphoto are wrongly assuming this new best match 2.0 is going to increase sales across the board.
The fact remains sales are down as Mr Thompson explained..."snip"..The target for January was nearly met thanks to a good 2nd part of January.
Why do so many  contributors still think this new best match is for there benifit ??
It's designed to help the buyers.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: yecatsdoherty on January 31, 2009, 11:53
I've not had a sale in over 24 hours.....when normally I would have almost 50 by now. I'm feeling fairly certain that my iStock career has suddenly tanked. I was doing so well, consistently up until the end of November, none of the best match shakes really affected me for over a year. now right before hitting gold, my sales have been steadily declining. it started around 30% decrease from one day to the next, and now not one sale in almost two days.

I find the announcement inadequate. it is like most of the announcements. sounds great, all the right words, but it doesn't really tell me anything new.

I am pretty upset about all of this, though I realize for many it is working out. I am not fooling myself that they care whether I remain exclusive or not. but if this continues for more than a month, I will be checking out some of the other sites. I don't want to depend on IS completely.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: sharply_done on January 31, 2009, 12:17
...
I am pretty upset about all of this, though I realize for many it is working out. I am not fooling myself that they care whether I remain exclusive or not. but if this continues for more than a month, I will be checking out some of the other sites. I don't want to depend on IS completely.


From my perspective, I think your IS income will remain relatively unchanged for at least several months. As I understand it the only thing to be further implemented in the best match is some sort of mysterious ranked keywording tweak, whose purpose is to place a lower rank on and/or weed out images that the buyer probably isn't looking for. Your ranking in the search query, and thus your income, will most likely remain unchanged.

Your income is only going to change when they introduce the next best match change, which happens something on the order of three times per year. The Sept 07 best match change caused my sales to level off. My sales have dropped in the last two consecutive best match changes: one in May 08, and one in Sept 08. Although this latest best match change has seen my sales improve to 70+% of their 'previous normal', I had to suffer through eight months of lowered IS income to get it <see chart>. You'd be wise to plan for something similar.

(http://strathdee.net/temp/ischart0708.jpg)

Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: yecatsdoherty on January 31, 2009, 12:27
I'm almost certain you are correct and very disappointed. you are not exclusive. were you exclusive at any point? would you ever consider exclusivity? I may need to change my exclusivity, not only because of this situation. but the latest changes are the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

I felt a little bit wary of IS and their announcements close to a year ago. though I was not negatively affected, I watched a number of my hard-working colleagues go through what it sounds like you went through. since then, the IS glow has certainly been tempered with a healthy dose of reality.

now I am seriously considering my options. this is not an arbitrary game to me. this is career path that I have invested deeply in. I wonder if remaining exclusive is shooting myself in the foot. I am quite ambitious, quite connected through my writing and photography....and I am definitely not a wallflower. I wonder if I would do much better marketing myself through a variety of sites and avenues.

ahhhh...brutal. not a decision I  thought I would have to make this soon but my sales are hideous.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: sharply_done on January 31, 2009, 12:36
You should be aware that if you decide to drop your exclusivity with IS, all the images you uploaded as an exclusive will be removed. This is done so that people do not take advantage of the increased upload limits and then switch back to non-exclusive once their portfolio is 'large enough'. (Here's the contract (http://www.istockphoto.com/asa_exclusive.php) - see Section 12.a.(i))

Those deciding to go exclusive would do well to take this into account before 'making the jump'. A good strategy might be to hold back on uploading your best imagery until the two or three weeks immediately preceding your exclusivity application.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: yecatsdoherty on January 31, 2009, 12:57
You should be aware that if you decide to drop your exclusivity with IS, all the images you uploaded as an exclusive will be removed. This is done so that people do not take advantage of the increased upload limits and then switch back to non-exclusive once their portfolio is 'large enough'. (Here's the contract ([url]http://www.istockphoto.com/asa_exclusive.php[/url]) - see Section 12.a.(i))

Those deciding to go exclusive would do well to take this into account before 'making the jump'. A good strategy might be to hold back on uploading your best imagery until the two or three weeks immediately preceding your exclusivity application.



well then I am stuck, because there are no images left in my port that were pre-exclusive. I culled most of my old stuff that wasn't selling last year.

guess I'll remain exclusive then.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: fotografer on January 31, 2009, 13:06
Wow, I didn't know that, it makes it a really tough decision for people to give up exclusivity.

You should be aware that if you decide to drop your exclusivity with IS, all the images you uploaded as an exclusive will be removed.

Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: gostwyck on January 31, 2009, 13:14
You should be aware that if you decide to drop your exclusivity with IS, all the images you uploaded as an exclusive will be removed. This is done so that people do not take advantage of the increased upload limits and then switch back to non-exclusive once their portfolio is 'large enough'. (Here's the contract ([url]http://www.istockphoto.com/asa_exclusive.php[/url]) - see Section 12.a.(i))

Those deciding to go exclusive would do well to take this into account before 'making the jump'. A good strategy might be to hold back on uploading your best imagery until the two or three weeks immediately preceding your exclusivity application.



Wow __ I wasn't aware of that either! That's a major ball and chain around the feet of anyone attempting to flee exclusivity. Great news for independents though.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: cdwheatley on January 31, 2009, 13:27
According to this thread posted yesterday it appears best match 2.0 is still not live yet.
http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=83392&page=1 (http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=83392&page=1)

only the "find similar" function is active.

It looks to me like there are still to many old images dominating current best match search. I'm guessing things will look different when they finally release this thing. Then again, who knows!!  :)

good info sharply on exclusivity, I wonder how many people knew that.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Gannet77 on January 31, 2009, 14:37
You should be aware that if you decide to drop your exclusivity with IS, all the images you uploaded as an exclusive will be removed. This is done so that people do not take advantage of the increased upload limits and then switch back to non-exclusive once their portfolio is 'large enough'. (Here's the contract ([url]http://www.istockphoto.com/asa_exclusive.php[/url]) - see Section 12.a.(i))

Those deciding to go exclusive would do well to take this into account before 'making the jump'. A good strategy might be to hold back on uploading your best imagery until the two or three weeks immediately preceding your exclusivity application.



I never realised this either, but do they actually do it?

AzureLaRoux (Nancy Walker) cancelled exclusivity back in September, but currently has 630 images in her portfolio. I don't know how many she had before becoming exclusive, but it seems unlikely it was that many - it also seems unlikely she has resubmitted and had accepted that many since then, given the 15/week limit for non-exclusives.

Are you here Nancy?  Could you let us know if iStock really did remove all your exclusive uploads?
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: anaire on January 31, 2009, 15:54
Hi Stacey,
Over the past few days I read your posts on Istock forums. You're vivacious and straight forward and I like that.
But there is something else you need to keep in mind.
At IStock they keep on feeding you this idea that IS is the 8-th wonder of the world and all other sites are nothing but crappy mediocrity.
It is not true.
I don't like IS and don't want you stuck there, but think twice!
Some of your files, including old flames, have little chance of passing the reviewers of today.
You'll be losing quite a number of them, no to mention all the extra bonuses.
If you really want to leave IS, you need to take things step by step and think in advance.
Good luck and hope things turn for the better!
One day soon you may be able to break free...
Anna

Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: yecatsdoherty on January 31, 2009, 16:08
Hi Stacey,
Over the past few days I read your posts on Istock forums. You're vivacious and straight forward and I like that.
But there is something else you need to keep in mind.
At IStock they keep on feeding you this idea that IS is the 8-th wonder of the world and all other sites are nothing but crappy mediocrity.
It is not true.
I don't like IS and don't want you stuck there, but think twice!
Some of your files, including old flames, have little chance of passing the reviewers of today.
You'll be losing quite a number of them, no to mention all the extra bonuses.
If you really want to leave IS, you need to take things step by step and think in advance.
Good luck and hope things turn for the better!
One day soon you may be able to break free...
Anna



Hi Anna - I am not going to leave my exclusivity for now. I think it would be a poor decision on my part. and I agree about my older images. in fact as we speak I am culling my old files, which is probably partly why my sales have tanked. I am removing all zero dl files, which I do every new year.

as for the IS 8th wonder of the world thing...I don't want to get nasty, but there is truth to that and I see it. I think were I beginning today I would not go exclusive. but now that I'm here, I'm here. I don't for a moment believe they are the be all and end all though. many of the other sites are also really really good. but you can't argue that Getty was only interested in one, iStock. so my gut tells me to stick it out, but I'm not doing it blindly or with some inflated ideology like the IS world would have people believe.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: shank_ali on January 31, 2009, 16:45
FACT.....Istockphoto allows us to showcase our work for sale,without it alot of contributors would be F ***** !
Count your blessings and try to think back to when you started and made your first sale.
Seems to me because collectively we make istockphoto alot of money we seem to be less grateful.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: photoagogo on January 31, 2009, 19:30
You should be aware that if you decide to drop your exclusivity with IS, all the images you uploaded as an exclusive will be removed. This is done so that people do not take advantage of the increased upload limits and then switch back to non-exclusive once their portfolio is 'large enough'. (Here's the contract ([url]http://www.istockphoto.com/asa_exclusive.php[/url]) - see Section 12.a.(i))

Those deciding to go exclusive would do well to take this into account before 'making the jump'. A good strategy might be to hold back on uploading your best imagery until the two or three weeks immediately preceding your exclusivity application.



That really is messed up. From the 'go exclusive' material you would never realise that is the case. It looks like those who are already exclusive has no choice but to stay that way if they have large portfolios.

The way they sell it suggests its a simple, 'go independent, wait 90 days, go exclusive again' kind of deal. This small print is really sneaky. Thanks for pointing it out. I bet most exclusives don't realise what would actually happen.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: travelstock on January 31, 2009, 20:15
Well personally I hope that best match 2.0 has some changes from what is in place now, and the posted info gives some hope for that to happen -  January is the first month that my sales are lower than the corresponding time in a previous year - I'm hoping this isn't a sign to come for the coming year. Considering that my portfolio has increased from 447 to 877 in the same time its a big drop.

Still I'll keep on uploading and hope for a change.

Happily my rank on FT increased to Silver last week which seems to have brought with it an increase in sales there too.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: lisafx on January 31, 2009, 20:57
You should be aware that if you decide to drop your exclusivity with IS, all the images you uploaded as an exclusive will be removed. This is done so that people do not take advantage of the increased upload limits and then switch back to non-exclusive once their portfolio is 'large enough'. (Here's the contract ([url]http://www.istockphoto.com/asa_exclusive.php[/url]) - see Section 12.a.(i))

Those deciding to go exclusive would do well to take this into account before 'making the jump'. A good strategy might be to hold back on uploading your best imagery until the two or three weeks immediately preceding your exclusivity application.



Wow!  That's harsh!  I can see the reasoning behind it but it seems a bit heavy handed IMO.   I liked the old days when istock used the carrot to get and hold exclusives, rather than the stick. 

Stacey, even without this penalty for dropping exclusivity, I think you are wise to wait until at least a few weeks in to the launch of best match 2 before deciding.  I am emotional and passionate about things, like I can tell that you are.  But usually when I make a decision in haste or out of anger it turns out badly.

I am really enjoying the sales I am having the last few weeks, but I don't think it will last.  I am pretty certain istock will be giving the exclusives another big boost soon.  Maybe each individual exclusive is expendable, but not a large number of them and surely istock will want to keep you guys happy.  :)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: yecatsdoherty on February 01, 2009, 01:23
Wow!  That's harsh!  I can see the reasoning behind it but it seems a bit heavy handed IMO.   I liked the old days when istock used the carrot to get and hold exclusives, rather than the stick. 

Stacey, even without this penalty for dropping exclusivity, I think you are wise to wait until at least a few weeks in to the launch of best match 2 before deciding.  I am emotional and passionate about things, like I can tell that you are.  But usually when I make a decision in haste or out of anger it turns out badly.

I am really enjoying the sales I am having the last few weeks, but I don't think it will last.  I am pretty certain istock will be giving the exclusives another big boost soon.  Maybe each individual exclusive is expendable, but not a large number of them and surely istock will want to keep you guys happy.  :)

yeah for sure. I know not to make knee jerk decisions. passion can lead you into very good, but also very bad and hasty decisions. I know myself well enough not to make any decisions like that. I have often revisited my exclusivity. I've talked about it with you many times before. the last time was when a good friend was losing a lot of income. when I saw what happened to him, it really scared me even though at the time my sales were steady.

I am chalking this all up to a learning experience, and I certainly do not hope they make best match changes along exclusive/non-exclusivity lines....I'm waiting it out. as always I'm very appreciative of your suggestions. you're very generous with guidance.  :)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: anaire on February 01, 2009, 01:24
Hi Stacey,
I'm sure Lisa is right. Hang on there, things will get better!
January was a lousy month all over the board. IS is not the only one experiencing lower sales.
However, be wise and think ahead. Start building a secondary port, something handy to fall back on if times turn bad again.
Better safe than sorry, right?
Meanwhile I'll still be waiting for your naked photos!
I kind wait to watch them, (the men I mean), go bananas :)
Good luck Stacey, better times are right around the corner!
Anna

 
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: yecatsdoherty on February 01, 2009, 02:10
Hi Stacey,
I'm sure Lisa is right. Hang on there, things will get better!
January was a lousy month all over the board. IS is not the only one experiencing lower sales.
However, be wise and think ahead. Start building a secondary port, something handy to fall back on if times turn bad again.
Better safe than sorry, right?
Meanwhile I'll still be waiting for your naked photos!
I kind wait to watch them, (the men I mean), go bananas :)
Good luck Stacey, better times are right around the corner!
Anna


***
thanks Anna - I'll keep you posted on the nudity....lol.  that is a great idea about a secondary portfolio.....but I think ultimately exclusivity is like golden handcuffs.....can't really take them off once you're quite invested. and I;m not sure that it wouldn't hurt me the most to dump the crown. I'm not about to take it off in a huff.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: jsnover on February 01, 2009, 03:00
Isn't it possible that you're misreading the termination clause? I think that what they're addressing is that they have the right to take 30 days to stop selling all the content if you leave the site altogether. IOW, that this clause isn't talking about a switch from exclusive to non?

If it's an issue for anyone, I'd suggest contacting contributor relations to see if this delete your exclusive uploads  interpretation is really correct.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: shank_ali on February 01, 2009, 03:26
Isn't it possible that you're misreading the termination clause? I think that what they're addressing is that they have the right to take 30 days to stop selling all the content if you leave the site altogether. IOW, that this clause isn't talking about a switch from exclusive to non?

If it's an issue for anyone, I'd suggest contacting contributor relations to see if this delete your exclusive uploads  interpretation is really correct.
Ask in the "secret forum"  ;)
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Gannet77 on February 01, 2009, 05:15
Isn't it possible that you're misreading the termination clause? I think that what they're addressing is that they have the right to take 30 days to stop selling all the content if you leave the site altogether. IOW, that this clause isn't talking about a switch from exclusive to non?

If it's an issue for anyone, I'd suggest contacting contributor relations to see if this delete your exclusive uploads  interpretation is really correct.

That's sort of what I wondered.  It would seem counter productive for iStock to remove large numbers of  presumably good selling files just because someone renounced exclusivity, especially given that from then on they would be making more money from them.

Can anyone who has actually done this shed any light on it?
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: abimages on February 01, 2009, 07:15
I've not had a sale in over 24 hours.....when normally I would have almost 50 by now. I'm feeling fairly certain that my iStock career has suddenly tanked. I was doing so well, consistently up until the end of November, none of the best match shakes really affected me for over a year. now right before hitting gold, my sales have been steadily declining. it started around 30% decrease from one day to the next, and now not one sale in almost two days.

I find the announcement inadequate. it is like most of the announcements. sounds great, all the right words, but it doesn't really tell me anything new.

I am pretty upset about all of this, though I realize for many it is working out. I am not fooling myself that they care whether I remain exclusive or not. but if this continues for more than a month, I will be checking out some of the other sites. I don't want to depend on IS completely.

Wow! I didn't realise exclusives could be subject to such wild swings in the best match. I always thought they enjoyed a steady ride.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: sharply_done on February 01, 2009, 12:38
Isn't it possible that you're misreading the termination clause? I think that what they're addressing is that they have the right to take 30 days to stop selling all the content if you leave the site altogether. IOW, that this clause isn't talking about a switch from exclusive to non?

If it's an issue for anyone, I'd suggest contacting contributor relations to see if this delete your exclusive uploads  interpretation is really correct.

Yes, I'll grant that it's possible I misread/misunderstood it, but I think either is extremely unlikely. And here's why:

If it was possible to turn exclusivity on and off in 90 day intervals without incurring a penalty, I'd jump aboard that ship in a second. When I wasn't exclusive I'd upload only to SS, FT, StockXpert, and 123. After 90 days I'd remove my images from those agencies, switch back to exclusive at IS, then upload my new images to them. After 90 days I'd cancel my IS exclusivity and repeat the process. This would give me the best of both worlds, allowing me to have similar/identical portfolios on all agencies, effectively nullifying the exclusive image advantage that IS enjoys.

But then again, maybe it is possible to do this, but nobody's tried it yet. If this is the case, you can bet that IS will shut that  door pretty quickly now that it's been mentioned on a public forum.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: borg on February 01, 2009, 14:05
Are the search results generated with BM2 these days or not?
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: cdwheatley on February 01, 2009, 14:16
Are the search results generated with BM2 these days or not?

The answer would be "no" at this point. They mention in the thread that they will be testing a beta version in house,  if all goes well will release shortly after.

If you open up a image on istock there is a tab that says "more like this" Its my understanding this running on best match 2.0 ,this will give you an idea of what the search is going to be like. I must say it looks quite impressive going from that. Everyone else will be playing catch-up
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: sharpshot on February 01, 2009, 14:25
Isn't it possible that you're misreading the termination clause? I think that what they're addressing is that they have the right to take 30 days to stop selling all the content if you leave the site altogether. IOW, that this clause isn't talking about a switch from exclusive to non?

If it's an issue for anyone, I'd suggest contacting contributor relations to see if this delete your exclusive uploads  interpretation is really correct.

Yes, I'll grant that it's possible I misread/misunderstood it, but I think either is extremely unlikely. And here's why:

If it was possible to turn exclusivity on and off in 90 day intervals without incurring a penalty, I'd jump aboard that ship in a second. When I wasn't exclusive I'd upload only to SS, FT, StockXpert, and 123. After 90 days I'd remove my images from those agencies, switch back to exclusive at IS, then upload my new images to them. After 90 days I'd cancel my IS exclusivity and repeat the process. This would give me the best of both worlds, allowing me to have similar/identical portfolios on all agencies, effectively nullifying the exclusive image advantage that IS enjoys.

But then again, maybe it is possible to do this, but nobody's tried it yet. If this is the case, you can bet that IS will shut that  door pretty quickly now that it's been mentioned on a public forum.


Wouldn't it take a long time to keep uploading and deleting to SS, FT, StockXpert, and 123?  I presume you would have to wait for reviews every time, so there would be lots of days when you were non-exclusive with istock and had hardly any photos on the other sites.  Doesn't seem worth trying to me.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: cdwheatley on February 01, 2009, 14:29
Another interesting thing about best match 2.0 is it might prove to be a usefull keywording tool. You can browse similar images and get an idea of the keywords most often used for downloading a particular file type. I'm not suggesting copying someone else's keywords  :) but you can at least make sure you have the 4 most popular "relevant" words.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: borg on February 01, 2009, 14:30
Are the search results generated with BM2 these days or not?

The answer would be "no" at this point. They mention in the thread that they will be testing a beta version in house,  if all goes well will release shortly after.

If you open up a image on istock there is a tab that says "more like this" Its my understanding this running on best match 2.0 ,this will give you an idea of what the search is going to be like. I must say it looks quite impressive going from that. Everyone else will be playing catch-up

Thanks Cdwheatley!!
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: yingyang0 on February 01, 2009, 14:33
Isn't it possible that you're misreading the termination clause? I think that what they're addressing is that they have the right to take 30 days to stop selling all the content if you leave the site altogether. IOW, that this clause isn't talking about a switch from exclusive to non?

If it's an issue for anyone, I'd suggest contacting contributor relations to see if this delete your exclusive uploads  interpretation is really correct.

Yes, I'll grant that it's possible I misread/misunderstood it, but I think either is extremely unlikely. And here's why:

If it was possible to turn exclusivity on and off in 90 day intervals without incurring a penalty, I'd jump aboard that ship in a second. When I wasn't exclusive I'd upload only to SS, FT, StockXpert, and 123. After 90 days I'd remove my images from those agencies, switch back to exclusive at IS, then upload my new images to them. After 90 days I'd cancel my IS exclusivity and repeat the process. This would give me the best of both worlds, allowing me to have similar/identical portfolios on all agencies, effectively nullifying the exclusive image advantage that IS enjoys.

But then again, maybe it is possible to do this, but nobody's tried it yet. If this is the case, you can bet that IS will shut that  door pretty quickly now that it's been mentioned on a public forum.


Sharply, I think you are infact misreading the contract. You'll note that the same clause is found in the non-exclusive contract! The termination clause is meant for when you completely quit selling at iStock. It's unfortunate that they cut and pasted without thinking that people may misread the contract's intent, but hey you can't foresee what people are going to read into a contract.

There are plenty of people that have gone exclusive, then went non-exclusive and they didn't have their portfolios removed. Before flying off the the limb it is important to actually get the facts by contacting former exclusives.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: shank_ali on February 01, 2009, 14:38
Another interesting thing about best match 2.0 is it might prove to be a usefull keywording tool. You can browse similar images and get an idea of the keywords most often used for downloading a particular file type. I'm not suggesting copying someone else's keywords  :) but you can at least make sure you have the 4 most popular "relevant" words.
I copy keywords all the time..In fact i use the search engine facility like a buyer to hunt down a similiar photo to the one i am about to upload for inspection. Mid adult,one mid adult man,mid adult men,carrying on shoulders,vibrant color,real people,stereotypically working class.
The more you copy the more you learn.
So i copy other's peoples  keywords ...call the cops !
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: cdwheatley on February 01, 2009, 14:43
Another interesting thing about best match 2.0 is it might prove to be a usefull keywording tool. You can browse similar images and get an idea of the keywords most often used for downloading a particular file type. I'm not suggesting copying someone else's keywords  :) but you can at least make sure you have the 4 most popular "relevant" words.
I copy keywords all the time..In fact i use the search engine facility like a buyer to hunt down a similiar photo to the one i am about to upload for inspection. Mid adult,one mid adult man,mid adult men,carrying on shoulders,vibrant color,real people,stereotypically working class.
The more you copy the more you learn.
So i copy other's peoples  keywords ...call the cops !

your in big trouble mister  :D
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: borg on February 01, 2009, 14:45
But I am still a bit confused...

Can someone give  some " calendar"...

When best match 2.0 could affect on our sales so far, and when it will start again, at least roughly...!???
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: cdwheatley on February 01, 2009, 14:52
probably by the middle of February. There is no exact date.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: bittersweet on February 01, 2009, 21:26
But I am still a bit confused...

Can someone give  some " calendar"...

When best match 2.0 could affect on our sales so far, and when it will start again, at least roughly...!???



You might want to read the actual statement from an actual employee of istock, rather than trying to filter through a bunch of interpretations (some of which are not exactly accurate).

Here's the link to the latest official announcement (from Friday):
http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=83392&page=1 (http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=83392&page=1)

Just a suggestion...


Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: CofkoCof on February 02, 2009, 03:32
You might want to read the actual statement from an actual employee of istock, rather than trying to filter through a bunch of interpretations (some of which are not exactly accurate).

Here's the link to the latest official announcement (from Friday):
[url]http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=83392&page=1[/url] ([url]http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=83392&page=1[/url])

Just a suggestion...

I already posted the announcement two times, even bolded the part on the timing of best match. Doesn't seem to help :D
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: MichaelJay on February 02, 2009, 03:50
You should be aware that if you decide to drop your exclusivity with IS, all the images you uploaded as an exclusive will be removed. This is done so that people do not take advantage of the increased upload limits and then switch back to non-exclusive once their portfolio is 'large enough'. (Here's the contract ([url]http://www.istockphoto.com/asa_exclusive.php[/url]) - see Section 12.a.(i))


I am not sure if you are confusing what legally might be possible and what actually is being done. In my opinion, these terms are mainly in case you decide you want to remove your portfolio voluntarily from iStock - in this case iStock has the duty to remove your content within 30 days, so they are giving themselves at least some time to protect themselves from people asking to "immediately remove all images" and later on making claims why it took iStock a week to do so.

Contracts are always made to protect parties in the worst case but how you live a business relationship is usually a bit different as long as both parties respect the interest of the others.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: borg on February 02, 2009, 09:22
Excuse me if I'm boring,

I just wanted to ask is it work till now and when,that was all...!?

Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: Rob Sylvan on February 02, 2009, 17:19
You should be aware that if you decide to drop your exclusivity with IS, all the images you uploaded as an exclusive will be removed. This is done so that people do not take advantage of the increased upload limits and then switch back to non-exclusive once their portfolio is 'large enough'. (Here's the contract ([url]http://www.istockphoto.com/asa_exclusive.php[/url]) - see Section 12.a.(i))


This interpretation is completely incorrect. Canceling exclusivity does not result in all your content being removed from the site. All that happens is that your content is "removed" from being considered exclusive after 30 days (i.e., removed from exclusive-only searches, promotions, royalties, etc). After 90 days you can apply again to become exclusive if you wish.

I would encourage anyone with questions/concerns about the Artist Supply Agreement to contact iStock Contributor Relations directly.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: shank_ali on February 02, 2009, 17:33
You should be aware that if you decide to drop your exclusivity with IS, all the images you uploaded as an exclusive will be removed. This is done so that people do not take advantage of the increased upload limits and then switch back to non-exclusive once their portfolio is 'large enough'. (Here's the contract ([url]http://www.istockphoto.com/asa_exclusive.php[/url]) - see Section 12.a.(i))


This interpretation is completely incorrect. Canceling exclusivity does not result in all your content being removed from the site. All that happens is that your content is "removed" from being considered exclusive after 30 days (i.e., removed from exclusive-only searches, promotions, royalties, etc). After 90 days you can apply again to become exclusive if you wish.

I would encourage anyone with questions/concerns about the Artist Supply Agreement to contact iStock Contributor Relations directly.

Ty for post.
Once you have that crown at istockphoto i would imagine it to be a very difficult decision to give it up and contribute to other stock agencies.
I have no such decision to make as i am more than happy only uploading my work to istockphoto.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: KB on February 02, 2009, 17:52
This interpretation is completely incorrect. Canceling exclusivity does not result in all your content being removed from the site. All that happens is that your content is "removed" from being considered exclusive after 30 days (i.e., removed from exclusive-only searches, promotions, royalties, etc).

That well may be what iStock does (and you would certainly know), however you can't blame anyone for "interpreting" the agreement in that way, since that's what it states:
(i) iStockphoto shall remove the applicable Accepted Exclusive Content from the Site within thirty (30) days of the termination of this Agreement;

If that isn't what iStock intended, then perhaps they need to change the contract. Because as it is written, they certainly have the legal right to remove all exclusive content, as stated.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: fotografer on February 03, 2009, 02:03
That was brave of you coming over to these forums knowing that Shank hangs out here  ;D
tation is completely incorrect. Canceling exclusivity does not result in all your content being removed from the site. All that happens is that your content is "removed" from being considered exclusive after 30 days (i.e., removed from exclusive-only searches, promotions, royalties, etc). After 90 days you can apply again to become exclusive if you wish.

I would encourage anyone with questions/concerns about the Artist Supply Agreement to contact iStock Contributor Relations directly.
Title: Re: Best Match 2.0
Post by: shank_ali on February 03, 2009, 02:11
This interpretation is completely incorrect. Canceling exclusivity does not result in all your content being removed from the site. All that happens is that your content is "removed" from being considered exclusive after 30 days (i.e., removed from exclusive-only searches, promotions, royalties, etc).

That well may be what iStock does (and you would certainly know), however you can't blame anyone for "interpreting" the agreement in that way, since that's what it states:
(i) iStockphoto shall remove the applicable Accepted Exclusive Content from the Site within thirty (30) days of the termination of this Agreement;

If that isn't what iStock intended, then perhaps they need to change the contract. Because as it is written, they certainly have the legal right to remove all exclusive content, as stated.
FYI KB a forum admin does not make policy descisions at istockphoto.I suspect there main job is to ensure all the children play nicely in the playground !  The saying "money for old rope " comes to mind....