MicrostockGroup
Agency Based Discussion => iStockPhoto.com => Topic started by: travelstock on August 12, 2011, 05:04
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There's a theory that keeps popping up in discussions of iStock's Best Match, that it now includes location data, and that the results you get will vary depending on where you're searching from.
I suggested in another thread that we try to do a small test to see whether this is in fact the case, and if so to get an idea of how much difference there is. I had some response to this, so thought I'd post another thread to see if we can organise a time to try it out, and hopefully get some responses from different locations.
What I suggest is that we set a common time (early next week?) and common search strings, then post a screenshot of the top results for each and see what comes out.
Any takers for participating & suggestions on search strings?
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Count me in. I'm in Australia, and would be very interested to see the results of such a test.
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Hi Holgs, good idea - happy to participate too, I'm in the UK. Maybe we should do the test both logged in and logged out to iS.
iStock may be interested to see the results too :)
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i'm in, tell me what and when !
I'm in italy
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I'll still be in Spain BTW...
Maybe we should aim for Monday, say: 12 midnight Sydney time, 9pm Bangkok, 4pm Berlin, 3pm London, 10am New York, 8am Calgary.... (+/- 1 hour?) seems to be a time when its not unreasonable anywhere. I think emptying cache and doing a search both logged in and out coule be good. Anyone have any searches they want to suggest? Could go for some generic ones like "Classroom", "Business" etc. (but not too many!)
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Will be interesting, I'm in from Holland.
I suggest "pregnant" and "harbor"
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Maybe we should include generic search terms which could give local results.
Eg in Spain (and much of the world) results for 'car road' might show more cars driving on the right, whereas in Australia/UK/etc, buyer search behaviour may have made the results skewed towards cars driving on the left.
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sounds like a fun idea. I can do the search from Canada. It may be hard to coordinate so many time zones at a 'good' time.
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Tyler - where are you in Canada? I'm in Toronto, I would participate in this too...just out of curiosity
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Count me in, Berlin!
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Sure I'll try, near Washington DC here. I think we should search for "cityscape" or something that should get very different results if the location aware features are working well. Right now a lot of my top results are for US cities NY, Chicago, Atlanta I would be curious if a search in England came up the same.
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yep! Portugal will do it too ;D
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Sure I'll try, near Washington DC here. I think we should search for "cityscape" or something that should get very different results if the location aware features are working well. Right now a lot of my top results are for US cities NY, Chicago, Atlanta I would be curious if a search in England came up the same.
Actually that's really revealing - logged in I get Australian results, logged out I suddenly have Madrid and Barcelona in the mix...
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Northeast central Colorado, USA
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South Africa here. I'm in, as long as the time isn't too crazy.
ETA: Whoops, missed holgs's time proposal. That'll suit me fine.
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What will also be interesting is the results you get today, compared to results you may get tomorrow or next week, for exactly the same searches.
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Count me in for Belgium. How shall we be reporting?
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Whatever 'information' you derive from this exercise is only going to be a snapshot of how the system may work (or not) on the day that you do it. Istock may be continually refining the system in the same way that they do with the best match. And, just like the best match, even if you were aware of the factors, the weighting and the effect ... there's still very little if anything that you can do about it to improve your own sales.
If you do find out that Aussie buyers get different results to Spanish buyers how can you amend your workflow to take advantage of it?
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Brazil.
Should we search in our language? It could be interesting to test words that have different meaning in different places (like football).
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cityscape search I get a mix but Australian shots up higher in best match than that I thought.
How come when you put the price slider down to minimum you still get Vetta photos ? (edit driver error) it jumped back to maximum without my intevention
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I'm in Central States USA.
Please find something that should bring topical results by area, the car idea was good, fashion, food? I don't care.
And please keep it simple, not all kinds of sliders and agencies specials, vetta or sorting, just what the average person dropping into the site would see when they search for a three or four word phrase.
I wonder if this will bugger up their count when suddenly people from all over the world start searching for "sliced tomato isolated" LOL :)
At IS HQ: "Hey look we need more sliced tomatoes shots there's a flood of searches coming in from around the world.
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There would (likely I should guess) be other factors apart from geo location which would potentially reasonably result in subtle differences even at the same moment.
Don't mess with the magic , I say :)
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^ what I mean is that there is no way of excluding other potentially unknown factors and therefore experimenting only with geo location - because other potentially unknown factors are unknown. So the experiment cannot demonstrate anything for sure.
Anyhow the best recipes are a secret. Lobster ā la Riseholme etc.
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^ what I mean is that there is no way of excluding other potentially unknown factors and therefore experimenting only with geo location - because other potentially unknown factors are unknown. So the experiment cannot demonstrate anything for sure.
Anyhow the best recipes are a secret. Lobster ā la Riseholme etc.
True, you can't control the other invisible variables, but there is one that can be tested and that is location. That's the theory, that location affects the best match results. It's isn't difinitive and if the best match changes according to the second of the minute, then nothing will ever be known,. We'll be like Heisenberg or who was that other guy? Schrödinger's theory represented the observational data by means of continuously evolving causal processes in space and time.
So lets just look at what we can see at that moment, we may not know how fast it's changing or where it will be in a few minutes, but we have results from assorted locations around the world, at a small window of time.
Hey, what if all of us get the same results? Then it's just as good of a proof that location doesn't change anything! :D
So the experiment is better done, than saying, it's impossible, it's secret and lets go play outside in the rain and forget about testing anything?
Yeah, on the other one, Nina's (an Indian Restaurant Manager) "Tandoori Chicken", there's one I'd like to know how to make. She broght it in partially prepared, with the seasoning in a baggie, so we never knew how she made it.
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^ what I mean is that there is no way of excluding other potentially unknown factors and therefore experimenting only with geo location - because other potentially unknown factors are unknown. So the experiment cannot demonstrate anything for sure.
Anyhow the best recipes are a secret. Lobster ā la Riseholme etc.
True, you can't control the other invisible variables, but there is one that can be tested and that is location. That's the theory, that location affects the best match results. It's isn't difinitive and if the best match changes according to the second of the minute, then nothing will ever be known,. We'll be like Heisenberg or who was that other guy? Schrödinger's theory represented the observational data by means of continuously evolving causal processes in space and time.
So lets just look at what we can see at that moment, we may not know how fast it's changing or where it will be in a few minutes, but we have results from assorted locations around the world, at a small window of time.
Hey, what if all of us get the same results? Then it's just as good of a proof that location doesn't change anything! :D
So the experiment is better done, than saying, it's impossible, it's secret and lets go play outside in the rain and forget about testing anything?
Yeah, on the other one, Nina's (an Indian Restaurant Manager) "Tandoori Chicken", there's one I'd like to know how to make. She broght it in partially prepared, with the seasoning in a baggie, so we never knew how she made it.
Unlike istock, I'll bet Nina makes her secret recipe exactly the same way every time. After all the screw-ups with the istock site and their IT department, I find it hard to believe that anything that's being done with their search algorithm is actually planned. Or did everyone forget about that? It's not that it's still not happening...it's just that the current trend is to speak highly of istock so that it appears all is getting better and improving. You know, like the ostrich syndrome...stick your head in the sand and pretend all is well. ;)
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so what are we up to? what keywords will we search? english main language?
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Maybe we should aim for Monday, say: 12 midnight Sydney time, 9pm Bangkok, 4pm Berlin, 3pm London, 10am New York, 8am Calgary.... (+/- 1 hour?) seems to be a time when its not unreasonable anywhere. I think emptying cache and doing a search both logged in and out coule be good.
I think we should follow the above suggestions : clear the cache, do the search on the suggested hour, do not forget to sort for "Best Match" (not downloads), go for all images (not just photos) ...
Let's go for location sensitive searches like suggested :
- pregnant (human) (Asian searchers should get Asian pregnant people if it really is a location aware search)
- harbor (-) or cityscape (-)
- football (player)
I did the test a few minutes ago, and as far as Belgium is concerned, there's no such thing as location aware search. Have a look at the results for cityscape/football/harbor/pregnant :
(http://home.scarlet.be/anneke.schram/testbeeld.jpg)
What shows op are New York, South Africa ...
does not look very location aware ...
Is this a good way to report tomorrow, or should we come up with more than the first 5 images?
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Maybe we should aim for Monday, say: 12 midnight Sydney time, 9pm Bangkok, 4pm Berlin, 3pm London, 10am New York, 8am Calgary.... (+/- 1 hour?) seems to be a time when its not unreasonable anywhere. I think emptying cache and doing a search both logged in and out coule be good.
I think we should follow the above suggestions : clear the cache, do the search on the suggested hour, do not forget to sort for "Best Match" (not downloads), go for all images (not just photos) ...
Let's go for location sensitive searches like suggested :
- pregnant (human) (Asian searchers should get Asian pregnant people if it really is a location aware search)
- harbor (-) or cityscape (-)
- football (player)
I did the test a few minutes ago, and as far as Belgium is concerned, there's no such thing as location aware search. Have a look at the results for cityscape/football/harbor/pregnant :
What shows op are New York, South Africa ...
does not look very location aware ...
Is this a good way to report tomorrow, or should we come up with more than the first 5 images?
The problem with the search for football is that the search thinks that means "American Football' (which is in itself a problem) and if you search for "soccer" you get what much of the world thinks of as football - in German "fussballer" gets you soccer players. If you want to find Australian Rules football images, you won't find many images irrespective of what you look for.
My suggestions for searches would be:
Cityscape
pregnant (human)
Classroom (school)
If the content is there and the search is actually producing localised results, each of these should produce different results. The Classroom example was the one Alamy used when they were demonstrating their localised results, though I suspect iStock has less options in many markets.
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and i would suggest :
- people
- or business
- or portrait
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Maybe we should aim for Monday, say: 12 midnight Sydney time, 9pm Bangkok, 4pm Berlin, 3pm London, 10am New York, 8am Calgary.... (+/- 1 hour?) seems to be a time when its not unreasonable anywhere. I think emptying cache and doing a search both logged in and out coule be good.
I think we should follow the above suggestions : clear the cache, do the search on the suggested hour, do not forget to sort for "Best Match" (not downloads), go for all images (not just photos) ...
Let's go for location sensitive searches like suggested :
- pregnant (human) (Asian searchers should get Asian pregnant people if it really is a location aware search)
- harbor (-) or cityscape (-)
- football (player)
I did the test a few minutes ago, and as far as Belgium is concerned, there's no such thing as location aware search. Have a look at the results for cityscape/football/harbor/pregnant :
What shows op are New York, South Africa ...
does not look very location aware ...
Is this a good way to report tomorrow, or should we come up with more than the first 5 images?
The problem with the search for football is that the search thinks that means "American Football' (which is in itself a problem) and if you search for "soccer" you get what much of the world thinks of as football - in German "fussballer" gets you soccer players. If you want to find Australian Rules football images, you won't find many images irrespective of what you look for.
My suggestions for searches would be:
Cityscape
pregnant (human)
Classroom (school)
If the content is there and the search is actually producing localised results, each of these should produce different results. The Classroom example was the one Alamy used when they were demonstrating their localised results, though I suspect iStock has less options in many markets.
Two things, we don't even want to go there about "football" again and Futbol is another one. Good point unless someone wanted to see if Europe shows the right football and the US shows their version?
I'm not even sure that location matters, it's just a theory. I know I've been saying the same thing for over a year, but it could be random and vary based on a cycle of multiple conditions being favored. In other words, there is no "system" except random changes in the weighting so people get different results every time they search, which makes the collection alive instead of stagnant.
Maybe?
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I did the test a few minutes ago, and as far as Belgium is concerned, there's no such thing as location aware search. Have a look at the results for cityscape/football/harbor/pregnant :
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Four hours later, but none of my searches is the same as yours and all my top 5 football(player)s are different. (UK)
Whatever keywords are chosen for the search, it should be specified whether we just go with the generic keyword, e.g. 'football'. or one of the DAs i.e. (in this case):
Football (Ball)
American Football (Team Sport)
Football Field
Football Helmet
Football Player
football - nfl ..NFL
American Football Judge
er, why isn't 'Soccer' a DA of Football, since football is what we (in the UK) call 'soccer', and I'm guessing when Brits search for 'football', they're hoping for images of 'soccer' (else they'd search on "American Football" or "Aussie Rules football").
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and i would suggest :
- people
- or business
- or portrait
Also good decisions... maybe someone needs to make an executive decision.. Leaf???
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I think people is a good one. can I humbly suggest something that would prompt a regional return like food also?
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Seems like there are just a few minutes left, right? What about the OP (holgs) making the decision on the keywords for us and how things should be done to get a good comparison?
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40min left
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well, FWIW, here are my returns for food, people and business:
http://staceylnewman.smugmug.com/Other/location-search/18544531_68bhTq/ (http://staceylnewman.smugmug.com/Other/location-search/18544531_68bhTq/)
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Okay, food/business/people it is! Here are the results from Belgium : http://home.scarlet.be/anneke.schram/test3.jpg (http://home.scarlet.be/anneke.schram/test3.jpg)
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Portugal
business
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_business.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_business.jpg)
cityscape
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_cityscape.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_cityscape.jpg)
classroom (school)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_classroom.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_classroom.jpg)
food
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_food.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_food.jpg)
football (player)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_footballplayer.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_footballplayer.jpg)
people
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_people.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_people.jpg)
pregnant (human)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_pregnant.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8294845/luissantos_pregnant.jpg)
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Sorry guys - unexpected complications here - things seem to take longer on public holidays in Spain! About to post my results for food, people, business, classroom (school), cityscape and pregnant (human) as well... (+ waiting on a really slow internet connection!)
Business:
http://holgs.com/lb/Business-Murcia-Spain.jpg (http://holgs.com/lb/Business-Murcia-Spain.jpg)
Cityscape
http://holgs.com/lb/Cityscape-Murcia-Spain%204.20.35%20PM.jpg (http://holgs.com/lb/Cityscape-Murcia-Spain%204.20.35%20PM.jpg)
Classroom
http://holgs.com/lb/Classroom-Murcia-Spain.jpg (http://holgs.com/lb/Classroom-Murcia-Spain.jpg)
People
http://holgs.com/lb/People-Murcia-Spain.jpg (http://holgs.com/lb/People-Murcia-Spain.jpg)
Pregnant (Human)
http://holgs.com/lb/Pregnant-human-murcia-spain.jpg (http://holgs.com/lb/Pregnant-human-murcia-spain.jpg)
Food:
http://holgs.com/lb/Food-Murcia-Spain.jpg (http://holgs.com/lb/Food-Murcia-Spain.jpg)
(all while logged out & cookies cleared)
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Austria:
http://www.amriphoto.com/istock/regionalSearch2011-08-15/business.jpg (http://www.amriphoto.com/istock/regionalSearch2011-08-15/business.jpg)
http://www.amriphoto.com/istock/regionalSearch2011-08-15/cityscape.jpg (http://www.amriphoto.com/istock/regionalSearch2011-08-15/cityscape.jpg)
http://www.amriphoto.com/istock/regionalSearch2011-08-15/food.jpg (http://www.amriphoto.com/istock/regionalSearch2011-08-15/food.jpg)
http://www.amriphoto.com/istock/regionalSearch2011-08-15/people.jpg (http://www.amriphoto.com/istock/regionalSearch2011-08-15/people.jpg)
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UK - using the same terms as Luis above
business
http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestBusiness.jpg (http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestBusiness.jpg)
cityscape
http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestCityscape.jpg (http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestCityscape.jpg)
classroom (school)
http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestClassroom.jpg (http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestClassroom.jpg)
food
http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestFood.jpg (http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestFood.jpg)
football player
http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestFootballPlayer.jpg (http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestFootballPlayer.jpg)
people
http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestPeople.jpg (http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestPeople.jpg)
pregnant (human)
http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestPregnant.jpg (http://www.foogaloo.com/photos/iStock/iSLocationTestPregnant.jpg)
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generally it looks like regions are returning the same images...
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Scotland, UK
http://www.lizworld.com/BestMatch.html (http://www.lizworld.com/BestMatch.html)
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logged in - clear cache - fireforx 5.0.1 - Mac os X - 15.50 London Time - Italy
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/business_15.50_london_TIme.png (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/business_15.50_london_TIme.png)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/cityscape_15.50_london_TIme.png (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/cityscape_15.50_london_TIme.png)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/classroom_15.50_london_TIme.png (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/classroom_15.50_london_TIme.png)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/food_15.50_london_TIme.png (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/food_15.50_london_TIme.png)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/people_15.50_london_TIme.png (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/people_15.50_london_TIme.png)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/Pregnant_human_15.50_london_TIme.png (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34112912/Pregnant_human_15.50_london_TIme.png)
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so what are we up to? what keywords will we search? english main language?
I did best match, and four of the words. Don't know what this all means, that's for someone who wants to analyze it?
Pregnant (human), Cityscape, Classroom and Football (player)
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg98/scaled.php?server=98&filename=ispregnant.jpg&res=medium)
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg846/scaled.php?server=846&filename=iscityscape.jpg&res=medium)
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg51/scaled.php?server=51&filename=isclassroom.jpg&res=medium)
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg708/scaled.php?server=708&filename=isfootball.jpg&res=medium)
Have Fun!
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I did best match, and four of the words. Don't know what this all means, that's for someone who wants to analyze it?
From an initial look, what I make of it is that there definitely is a location factor there - in the food results, there is a photo of Jamon that shows up high in the Spanish results, that isn't in the others (for example). The cityscapes have some different files too, and each of the searches has a bit of a different order.
--BUT--
So far the differences seem to be in a handful of files, rather than drastically different. The way I'd interpret that is:
1. the weight of results from the US is often so overwhelming that it will take precedence over however much of a regional search best match factor is dialed in
2. There isn't actually that much of a localised search weighting in the best match.
3. There isn't enough regionally specific content in some areas.
4. There aren't enough buyers/ history data in some places to significantly shift the best match
It would still be interesting to get some results from Australia, Africa or Asia, even if the times are a bit off - I suspect things aren't changing so quickly that the time is all that important.
In case anyone is interested, this is what I get for the "cityscape" search when I'm logged in - (my profile location is set to Australia):
(http://holgs.com/lb/cityscape-logged-in-Australia.jpg)
I'm thinking this also means that if the IP location and profile location are different, the profile takes precedence.
Thanks to everyone who posted screenshots!
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Ok, maybe I'm a bit late, but here is my results (sort of).
For people, I get almost the same as you guys. However, there is an image of a "Brazilian Boy" (face with the Brazilian flag projected on it).
Football player, almost only US football.
Cityscape, the first and a few others are images of Rio. That's one significant differential. But the weight is small, as I see also many other main cities (London, NYC, etc).
In Food, I didn't find anything typically Brazilian.
What about Flag? I get four Brazilian flags first, the first of them is the above mentioned "Brazilian Boy".
PS: just switched language to Brazilian Portuguese and searched for "gente", got the same as "people", nobody particulary Brazilian-looking.
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Honestly I´m quite happy with the results. If it were more localized, it would mean that some of us could lose a lot of money. As a contributor of a small european country I guess my files would hardly sell anywhere if the search was localized too much.
The way it is now it seems that there is some local content, but not too much.
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It looks like to me that there is definitely a localised component that isn't very strong but no doubt exists.
It may be a stronger factor on searches that don't come up with 10000's of files and files with such large number of downloads. eg that photo with the girl blowing the dandelion smashes everything in the best match search.
Cityscape search from within Australia brings very similar but slightly different to the one that you showed.
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Honestly I´m quite happy with the results. If it were more localized, it would mean that some of us could lose a lot of money. As a contributor of a small european country I guess my files would hardly sell anywhere if the search was localized too much.
The way it is now it seems that there is some local content, but not too much.
From what I understand the search is meant to factor in the content that buyers actually purchase from some locations, rather than where the seller comes from. So if you're producing images specifically for the US market from Europe it shouldn't penalise you.
To me if iStock is serious about going beyond the US market, then the results don't show a strong enough local flavour.
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The location of the buyer should have no bearing on the search resukts IMO.Istockphoto would tell you after extensive market research(bull...) americans would like american files first and foremost in there search resukts...Lets all move to america and get shot !!!!!
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Honestly I´m quite happy with the results. If it were more localized, it would mean that some of us could lose a lot of money. As a contributor of a small european country I guess my files would hardly sell anywhere if the search was localized too much.
The way it is now it seems that there is some local content, but not too much.
From what I understand the search is meant to factor in the content that buyers actually purchase from some locations, rather than where the seller comes from. So if you're producing images specifically for the US market from Europe it shouldn't penalise you.
To me if iStock is serious about going beyond the US market, then the results don't show a strong enough local flavour.
definitely see the regional popping up in search terms like cityscape as you pointed out. but I'm also glad it isn't so prominent that it completely changes best match results. cool....thanks Holger, interesting experiment.
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The location of the buyer should have no bearing on the search resukts IMO.Istockphoto would tell you after extensive market research(bull...) americans would like american files first and foremost in there search resukts...Lets all move to america and get shot !!!!!
Police have arrested more than 3,000 people over riots that erupted Aug. 6 in north London and flared for four nights across the capital and other English cities. A 16-year-old boy was ordered Tuesday to stand trial for the murder of a retiree attacked when he confronted rioters in London. Five people died during the unrest, including three men hit by a car in Birmingham, central England as they protected local shops from looters. Two men and a teenage boy have been charged with murdering Haroon Jahan, 20, and brothers Shazad Ali, 30, and Abdul Musavir, 31. Several suspects have also been questioned about the death of a man who was shot in the head during rioting in south London.
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The location of the buyer should have no bearing on the search resukts IMO.Istockphoto would tell you after extensive market research(bull...) americans would like american files first and foremost in there search resukts...Lets all move to america and get shot !!!!!
Police have arrested more than 3,000 people over riots that erupted Aug. 6 in north London and flared for four nights across the capital and other English cities. A 16-year-old boy was ordered Tuesday to stand trial for the murder of a retiree attacked when he confronted rioters in London. Five people died during the unrest, including three men hit by a car in Birmingham, central England as they protected local shops from looters. Two men and a teenage boy have been charged with murdering Haroon Jahan, 20, and brothers Shazad Ali, 30, and Abdul Musavir, 31. Several suspects have also been questioned about the death of a man who was shot in the head during rioting in south London.
Yeah, but that's all irrelevant to iStock. For the moment at least.
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Police have arrested more than 3,000 people over riots that erupted Aug. 6 in north London and flared for four nights across the capital and other English cities. A 16-year-old boy was ordered Tuesday to stand trial for the murder of a retiree attacked when he confronted rioters in London. Five people died during the unrest, including three men hit by a car in Birmingham, central England as they protected local shops from looters. Two men and a teenage boy have been charged with murdering Haroon Jahan, 20, and brothers Shazad Ali, 30, and Abdul Musavir, 31. Several suspects have also been questioned about the death of a man who was shot in the head during rioting in south London.
About the same as an average Friday night in New Orleans then?
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They Search engine dont work at all on my comp?!
So me and my image buyers are searching on other sites...