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Author Topic: pathetic "controlled vocabulary"  (Read 11266 times)

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« on: January 13, 2010, 21:49 »
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I'm grinding through the submission of a few shots to IStock and once again coming up against the fact that many of the things I do just aren't in the IS "controlled vocabulary".  Therefor, those objects just don't exist in the IS universe and buyers would have to go elsewhere to find them.  For the present, I grab what keywords I can, even though there isn't one for the object itself.  There is apparently no way, when submitting a photo, to suggest new keywords for it.

It's pathetic.  I assume, or at least I want to believe, that IS is at least adding keywords over time.  If they do, I assume (or want to believe) that I could edit some of my photos to use the new keyword.  Is there a way to find out what's happening with the CV - to be notified periodically of new keywords?  Is there an official - and productive - way to request new keywords, other than the usual email to "Scout" ?

IS is so sophisticated in some ways, and yet so amateurish in others...   



« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 22:23 »
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It's a frustration with me too.  I click on the keyword to expand it like say "tree" and after wading through a loooong list of different tree sub-species I find that my tree in question isn't even in the list.  I just use deepmeta and by-pass such craziness.

« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2010, 22:43 »
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What kind of things?

BTW, added terms are here, if you're interested:
http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=41615&page=1

« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2010, 22:43 »
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email [email protected] to suggest new keywords

« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2010, 23:58 »
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sjlocke, averil, thanks, that answers a couple of my questions.


What they really need is, obviously, a way for us to suggest new keywords when we submit images.  Why would they not want that?  Wouldn't we just be giving them exactly what they need?

« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 04:29 »
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email [email protected] to suggest new keywords

I used that a lot in vain. Last time I checked, "real" wasn't yet Brazilian currency.

« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 05:28 »
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You can use keywords that aren't in the CV - they will be used for the image and work in searches, but not translated into other languages, and if they're phrases they would have to be placed in quotes for the search to work.

But that's just a partial workaround.  It would be nice if IS would check through the list of keywords entered that aren't in the CV, once in a while, and move appropriate ones into the CV proper.

« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 07:10 »
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What they really need is, obviously, a way for us to suggest new keywords when we submit images.  Why would they not want that?  Wouldn't we just be giving them exactly what they need?

iStock now supports 12 search languages, so any keyword added needs to be translated properly and put into the right context for each language. It's not just an easy addition. The good news is that about 2 billion people around the world can search in their native language.

« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 07:13 »
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I used that a lot in vain. Last time I checked, "real" wasn't yet Brazilian currency.

Actually it is - admittedly only, if you search in Brazilian Portuguese, "real" will translate to "Moeda Brasileira" which is "Brazilian Currency".

Most people searching for "real" in English will probably NOT mean the Brazilian currency - and they can still search for "Brazilian Currency" or "Brazilian money", not a far fetch. So I assume, for most of the real-life cases, it works this way.

« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 10:26 »
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sjlocke, averil, thanks, that answers a couple of my questions.


What they really need is, obviously, a way for us to suggest new keywords when we submit images.  Why would they not want that?  Wouldn't we just be giving them exactly what they need?

It's not the same as a keyword suggestion feature exactly, but if you feel like taking a few minutes to make a post in the keyword forum, the moderator and IS admins do make changes - and suggest terms to you if something's already in the CV and you haven't found it. It's also a place to Scout keyword removals that you feel are in error.

Things don't always happen instantly, but you do have a way to get interactions with the folks to handle the CV updates. There are also helpful contributors who will suggest keywords you might have overlooked.

« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2010, 10:55 »
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Latest I found - all porcupines and hedgehogs on IS have bristles, not quills or spines.
Looks like IS literally translated their names and decided that they are pigs :)

« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2010, 11:42 »
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You can use keywords that aren't in the CV - they will be used for the image and work in searches, but not translated into other languages

Wow is that true on IS? If so I didn't realize it.  I thought they'd just reject the image for bad keywords.


« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2010, 11:54 »
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Its true!

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2010, 12:17 »
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email [email protected] to suggest new keywords
Absolutely, but you can also make suggestions on the keywords forum. Sometimes that can throw up alternative suggestions you hadn't thought of, other times Ducksandwich or Emyerson will throw in some official words. That can sometimes get a change implemented more quickly, if it's thought to be an important change.
The most serious problem is if a word already exists, but you want a different meaning, like you want to add your photos of Spingleplonk, Arkansas, but there is already a CV entry for Spingleplonk, Essex. Then there's not a lot you can do other than holler.
IME some changes get made overnight, some take over two years.

« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2010, 14:42 »
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In principle, CV is the way to go for any agency. It doesn't take that much time on IS if you use DeepMeta. Occasionally I have a tag that isn't in the CV, like "emo", a particular taste of "goth" or "gothic" (fashion-lifestyle). I just leave it there, and it's accepted.

« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2010, 14:55 »
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I was under the impression we could only use keywords from the CV.  Why else would it be called the "Controlled" vocabulary?   I had some images rejected for keywording, which reinforced my impression that IS was very restrictive on keywords.  I actually had no idea we could just use non-CV keywords.


« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2010, 15:58 »
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I used that a lot in vain. Last time I checked, "real" wasn't yet Brazilian currency.

Actually it is - admittedly only, if you search in Brazilian Portuguese, "real" will translate to "Moeda Brasileira" which is "Brazilian Currency".

Most people searching for "real" in English will probably NOT mean the Brazilian currency - and they can still search for "Brazilian Currency" or "Brazilian money", not a far fetch. So I assume, for most of the real-life cases, it works this way.

Michael,

I haven't uploaded for over an year, and when I do is in English.  I have just edited one of my images to check, and they still only have two other meanings.  They have "yen", "peso" and "schekel" in the English vocabulary, and in other sites people buy a lot of my "real" images (in IS too).  In DT I saw many times "real" as the term of search.

You can use keywords that aren't in the CV - they will be used for the image and work in searches, but not translated into other languages, and if they're phrases they would have to be placed in quotes for the search to work

I don't think this is correct, as this is the message I get if I don't check any of the meanings for "real" (the underline is mine):

"You should provide at least one appropriate search term for each of the tags related to this image before completing the disambiguation process. A term is one of the possible meanings provided in the right hand column for each of the tags you've added. Only check those possible terms which are relevant to this particular image. A search term is needed in order to make your file searchable. Do you want to continue without choosing terms?"

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2010, 17:49 »
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I used that a lot in vain. Last time I checked, "real" wasn't yet Brazilian currency.

Actually it is - admittedly only, if you search in Brazilian Portuguese, "real" will translate to "Moeda Brasileira" which is "Brazilian Currency".

Most people searching for "real" in English will probably NOT mean the Brazilian currency - and they can still search for "Brazilian Currency" or "Brazilian money", not a far fetch. So I assume, for most of the real-life cases, it works this way.

Michael,

I haven't uploaded for over an year, and when I do is in English.  I have just edited one of my images to check, and they still only have two other meanings.  They have "yen", "peso" and "schekel" in the English vocabulary, and in other sites people buy a lot of my "real" images (in IS too).  In DT I saw many times "real" as the term of search.

You can use keywords that aren't in the CV - they will be used for the image and work in searches, but not translated into other languages, and if they're phrases they would have to be placed in quotes for the search to work

I don't think this is correct, as this is the message I get if I don't check any of the meanings for "real" (the underline is mine):

"You should provide at least one appropriate search term for each of the tags related to this image before completing the disambiguation process. A term is one of the possible meanings provided in the right hand column for each of the tags you've added. Only check those possible terms which are relevant to this particular image. A search term is needed in order to make your file searchable. Do you want to continue without choosing terms?"
That's the problem I outlined above.
Because there is/are already meanings for the word 'real' you can't currently use it to mean the Brazilian currency. Same with Pula or Sucre. However, for instance, the currency of Ethiopia is 'birr'. Birr isn't in the CV, but someone has 'added it for their own use' (and if you were the first you could use it). Since 'birr' is the name, in that case it wouldn't even matter that it couldn't be translated, as presumably anyone wanting an image of a birr would type in 'birr'. However, if it's a keyword phrase you can still add it 'for your own use' (you get a message asking you if you want to do that), but then the searcher would somehow need to know that they have to put the search term in quotations while searching. Not obvious or intuitive, but then if they want to qualify a phrase search, they also have to put it in quotations even if it's in the CV. E.g. "Railway track" winter, or "Railway track" Canada etc.
Actually I like the CV, even though blips like this are very annoying: it took well over two years to get my home county, Ayrshire, to be added, as previously my only option was 'Ayrshire cattle".
Remember the Keywording forum: very helpful people hang out there  ;D

« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2010, 18:13 »
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Maybe instead of beating this horse to death again we need petition to developers of DeepMeta to automate process of selecting keywords/categories? E.g I would gladly accept option to discard anything that is not properly detected.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 18:18 by melastmohican »

« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2010, 04:18 »
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Unfortunately, almost every time I upload images I found 1-2 words that I can't use because IS vocabulary gives me totally useless suggestions. :(
I think that English vocabulary (and vocabulary of any other language) is way to complex to be correctly expressed this way.

« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2010, 16:12 »
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Actually I like the CV, even though blips like this are very annoying:
I like it too, and it is very important for translations, the problem is only that suggestions seem not to be very often included.  I had a list of suggestions I did (I may still have it), some of which were real English words where some meaning was not included and I used dictionary definitions to suggest their addition - that is, I didn't take a meaning out of my head.

I also see some meanings that are the same to me, and I end up selecting both.  I don't remember any example now.

lisafx

« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2010, 18:27 »
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Unfortunately, almost every time I upload images I found 1-2 words that I can't use because IS vocabulary gives me totally useless suggestions. :(
I think that English vocabulary (and vocabulary of any other language) is way to complex to be correctly expressed this way.

I have to agree.  I just uploaded some images today and couldn't quite get the right meanings for some of the words.

BTW, Ivan, I love your new avatar picture!  Adorable little model you have there :)

« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2010, 12:21 »
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Unfortunately, almost every time I upload images I found 1-2 words that I can't use because IS vocabulary gives me totally useless suggestions. :(
I think that English vocabulary (and vocabulary of any other language) is way to complex to be correctly expressed this way.

I have to agree.  I just uploaded some images today and couldn't quite get the right meanings for some of the words.

BTW, Ivan, I love your new avatar picture!  Adorable little model you have there :)

Thanks Lisa :) That's my son :)

lisafx

« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2010, 12:26 »
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Thanks Lisa :) That's my son :)

Adorable boy!   :D

« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2010, 17:23 »
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Some posters have said that IS allows keywords not in the CV - but I can't see a way to do that with DeepMeta.   It only allows words from the CV.

I'm confused. Is this just a limitation of DeepMeta?

« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2010, 17:48 »
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Some posters have said that IS allows keywords not in the CV - but I can't see a way to do that with DeepMeta.   It only allows words from the CV.

I'm confused. Is this just a limitation of DeepMeta?
I think the non CV keywords show up in DeepMeta with a blue background rather than a green one with various disambiguation options. So you can add your own keywords/phrases, they just won't be translated into other languages by the search engine

« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2010, 18:18 »
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Some posters have said that IS allows keywords not in the CV - but I can't see a way to do that with DeepMeta.   It only allows words from the CV.

No you can add free keywords on top in DM. Mine are already in the IPTC. If keywords are not in the CV, they are colored blue in DM, but they still get accepted.

An example is the word "emo" (goth lifestyle, with a lighter touch). It always colors blue in DM but it's searchable as such on iStock. Just type in the search box for "emo" : Over 1,000 results. Click here.
It's a bit of a niche since 4 of my shots are in the top 6. And by the way, you can see that exclusives in general are not pimped in the search results since I'm not exclusive.

Of course, you need to use that opportunity very wisely, and only if you are sure. I never use it for plain English or common terms.

I heard that there is a forum section on iStock where new terms for the CV can be suggested. Do the iStockologists know exactly where?

I think the non CV keywords show up in DeepMeta with a blue background rather than a green one with various disambiguation options. So you can add your own keywords/phrases, they just won't be translated into other languages by the search engine

That's quite OK since "emo" is a global word, it's used in all languages I know.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 18:35 by FD-amateur »

« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2010, 23:19 »
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I think the non CV keywords show up in DeepMeta with a blue background rather than a green one with various disambiguation options. So you can add your own keywords/phrases, they just won't be translated into other languages by the search engine

I see that now.  Thanks.

There is still a problem, though, if your keyword IS in the CV but none of the disambiguation options are the correct meaning.  For example, I have an image of an audio mixing console, a nice closeup of the volume sliders. But I can't use either "track" or "channel" because they're taken by the CV.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 23:24 by stockastic »

« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 23:43 »
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Yes, I've had that problem too. You can use a phrase, eg audio track, but it's probably best to email keywords and ask for the additional meaning to be added to the options.


 

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