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Author Topic: So what are we all going to do?  (Read 34349 times)

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« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2010, 07:54 »
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The only way to get out of the hands of these companies is to start our own site. Its not impossible...


acv

« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2010, 08:35 »
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There are alot of other agencies to work with. To begin with Alamy. I make very good $$$$ on there and they give you 60% on each sale. Yes 60%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Not some slave wage at 15%. And for big fees. Good people at Alamy. Can't fault them. However classic micro style wont sell too well on there. You got to submit editorial style.

The other big thing people can do which no one as suggested is group together and create an agency at Photoshelter. All the software/platform is right there, you set your own price. The only thing you have to do is market your work. The good thing is you keep 90% of sales. It could work in a big way.  :)

SK

« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2010, 08:40 »
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Are there any lawyers in the group? Might there be a possibility of a "Class Action Lawsuit"? I say that because, although the iStock contract gives them control, officers (Kelly) of the company have posted promises in the forums that were misleading and outright lies. This could be a legal cause of action. You can't make promises and statements knowing you can't keep them and cause people financial harm.

Lawyers ?

« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2010, 08:48 »
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I don't see where actions call for having a leader or an organization. You all are individual contributors...if you are serious about not supporting IS anymore, it's pretty simple: don't support them anymore. Don't upload pics there anymore, don't go exclusive, cancel your exclusivity, remove any links to the site, remove your portfolio and tell any friends or clients not to buy there. Do it as quickly as you can. Done. Why do you need a leader to take that action?

« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2010, 08:53 »
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First we need to form an alliance. Call it the MSCA, Micro stock contributers alliance. I'ts not just about IS, other agencies have done similar stuff. Right now it's IS, tomorrow Fotolio, the next day who knows. There are levels of action, and these could be different for different people. Independents can set a D date and stick to it, others can sign the petition threatening to cancel exclusivity, a third tier can be just to stop uploading new images, so exclusives don't have to threaten to disable their portfolios. I really feel we need to draw a line in the sand. Getty has been doing this to photographers before micro stock came around, and yet most people stuck with Getty because in spite of the low % photographers still earned more than they did with other agencies because Getty generated the most business. But Getty has always lost money, my understanding is they have never been in the black. I forget the details but a few years ago Getty wanted to offer images at a really low price for web use, I believe, and the Stock artists alliance stood up to Getty and Getty acquiesced. Enough of us stand together and we can affect change, I believe it.

« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2010, 09:56 »
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We need a leader because it motivates people.
It's guidance and a sense of belonging. To a group, to something bigger, stronger.
We follow precise steps and we act together, united.
On day X we sign a petition and post it on a web site.
On day Y we stop uploading.
On day Z we start deleting images. One at a time.
We contact legal help.
We list creative houses in Canada - we draft an email and send it to them.

We can do all of the above, and more, independently of course. But the impact is not the same, it's half-baked.

Unfortunately you're probably right. This is a lost battle.

Getty is bringing in their own professional photographers. What goes round, comes round. They're going to pay them 20% (proabably).
No independent will ever reach the target.
IStock is becoming something else, not a micro site anymore, but something else.
And there's nothing we can do about it. We can all leave, Getty doesn't care.
I don't even think they want us there anymore (except for the top few, of course).
We, the 'regulars', are forcing our way in and it doesn't feel right.
They don't need us, why push it?
There will be new, exciting opportunities for some. Most will feel left aside.

And since IStock is not a micro-agency anymore, maybe 15% is less of an insult?
Who knows, we'll have to wait and see.
They're changing alright.

« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2010, 10:01 »
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Somewhat unrelated but partially motivated by these events, how do you selectively remove photos from IS?  I am going to winnow down my files that have not made sales and free them up for other options if they present themselves.  Thanks.

« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2010, 10:06 »
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I agree with cclapper, although I also agree with some past proposal of doing a coordinated move on a specific day.

I was also thinking of a different kind of protest, like uploading protest images: images related with betrayal and insult (a stabbed heart, a slap on the face), etc.

« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2010, 10:13 »
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Somewhat unrelated but partially motivated by these events, how do you selectively remove photos from IS?  I am going to winnow down my files that have not made sales and free them up for other options if they present themselves.  Thanks.

Bring up your portfolio display.  Click on one of the image thumbnails.  Toward the bottom of the page, click on Administration.  Type something in the text box (I use 'To quote Popeye, "I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more!"') and click the Deactivate File button.  Repeat. 

I'm deactivating five images a day, starting with the Dollar Bin.  It'll take a while, but on the off chance something happens to change my mind, I won't have done too much damage to my port yet.

« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2010, 10:15 »
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On day X we sign a petition and post it on a web site.
On day Y we stop uploading.
On day Z we start deleting images. One at a time.
We contact legal help.
We list creative houses in Canada - we draft an email and send it to them.

We can do all of the above, and more, independently of course. But the impact is not the same, it's half-baked.
Getty is bringing in their own professional photographers. What goes round, comes round. They're going to pay them 20% (proabably).

This is a good idea, have dates that we take certain actions. Getty's photographers, I'm technically a Getty photographer, I have images selling on Getty through the photographers choice collection and Flickr, and yea were getting 20%.

Lets all list demands here, decide together specifically what we want from iStock. The first obviously is, at the very least, not to take a drop in compensation. No outrageous goals that very few can meet in order to preserve our percentage. IS could halt the percentage increases and keep our percentages where they are and still save money. That way we dont lose income and they still gain because, as they stated, "... licensing will continue to grow overall ..."
Anybody else?

« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2010, 10:21 »
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Somewhat unrelated but partially motivated by these events, how do you selectively remove photos from IS?  I am going to winnow down my files that have not made sales and free them up for other options if they present themselves.  Thanks.

Bring up your portfolio display.  Click on one of the image thumbnails.  Toward the bottom of the page, click on Administration.  Type something in the text box (I use 'To quote Popeye, "I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more!"') and click the Deactivate File button.  Repeat. 

I'm deactivating five images a day, starting with the Dollar Bin.  It'll take a while, but on the off chance something happens to change my mind, I won't have done too much damage to my port yet.

Thanks for the instructions.

« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2010, 10:34 »
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Quote
or did not try hard enough

Trying hard is not easy if you're used to a certain level of income and that plummets when you give up exclusivity.
No offence meant but a lot of people posting this sort of comment ( not all, but quite a few) are not big earners with a lot to lose. If you're only selling a few hundred images a year the reality of moving to a non-exclusive deal is very different to being a big seller at IS. An initial drop in income of , lets say 50% to randomly pluck a figure out of the air if you abandon exclusivity at IS, is manageable if you're earning $200 a month and have a full time job and this is pocket money, if you're earning $2000 a week and paying a mortgage and supporting a family, that's a whole different ball game.

I definitely understand that. It's a lot of money to lose for many people. That's why I'm not rushing to abandon ship, but I do wonder if the decision will be made for some. If enough of those small fries with nothing to lose leave, you start to take the crowd out of crowd sourcing. As an independent, I don't have to worry much about a dip in iStock. Someone will find my images elsewhere. If I was exclusive though, I would definitely be planning an emergency escape plan. You never know when you may have to use it. Being prepared for a disaster is a much better plan than saying it will never happen.

lisafx

« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2010, 11:00 »
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If I was exclusive though, I would definitely be planning an emergency escape plan. You never know when you may have to use it. Being prepared for a disaster is a much better plan than saying it will never happen.

Very good advice.  

I can't remember if it is Alias or Sentinel, but one of them has been advocating for a couple of years that IS exclusives also save a copy of their images keyworded in the exif for other sites, and to get generic releases on all shoots, just as a precaution in case it's needed.

Seems like that would be extremely good advice, even for folks that are not currently planning to leave exclusivity.  For any exclusives that listened to that advice they are in a much better position than ones that have just keyworded and gotten releases for IS all these years.  

Although I do think the other sites might make an exception for IS releases right now, as a gesture to IS exclusives who want to try out other options.  

This latest move proves that a good exclusive deal can be changed overnight, at Getty's discretion, with no recourse for the contributor.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 11:03 by lisafx »

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2010, 11:23 »
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There are alot of other agencies to work with. To begin with Alamy. I make very good $$$$ on there and they give you 60% on each sale. Yes 60%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Not some slave wage at 15%. And for big fees. Good people at Alamy. Can't fault them. However classic micro style wont sell too well on there. You got to submit editorial style.
Can I just correct this: yes, you get 60% if you sell directly through Alamy. However, if sales are made via their distributers, the distributer fee comes off your 60%. And while fees can be big, a lot of editorial sales are to education and newspapers, who get bi-i-i-i-g discounts off the published prices, so fees can be lower than an EL at iStock would be for the same use.
That said, I've been building my port at Alamy at the expense of my iStock port for some months now.
You can't expect big money quickly (but you could get lucky!): even after you get sales it takes weeks or months for the cash to come in to Alamy so that you can get your hands on it.
So for the moment, I'll continue with the plan of supplying Alamy (editorial) primarily, and keeping a watching brief on my port at iStock and looking at alternatives as time goes on.

« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2010, 11:41 »
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What is the minimum that iStock needs to do, or not do, in order to make everyone content?

Initially for me just keep our income where it is, no unrealistic goals just to maintain our percentage. I could live with my iStock percentage remaining where it is right now, indefinitely, with no possibility of increasing, as long as there is no possibility it will decrease.

« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2010, 11:45 »
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I'm freezing my uploads to IS, I don't yet know if it's temporary or permanent. I can not remove my portfolio because I have invested a huge amount of time uploading and keywording and my IS income is also very important.
But I'm trying to speak up everywhere against IS/Getty to get the customers to at least think about what is fair and what is not fair (And hopefully they start purchasing their images elsewhere)

lisafx

« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2010, 11:46 »
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What is the minimum that iStock needs to do, or not do, in order to make everyone content?  

I seriously doubt there is anything IS could do to ever make me trust them again.

But a good start to mollify me would be grandfathering everyone into the levels they have achieved, both exclusive and non.  And nobody should be making less than 20%.  

« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2010, 11:48 »
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I agree with cclapper, although I also agree with some past proposal of doing a coordinated move on a specific day.

I was also thinking of a different kind of protest, like uploading protest images: images related with betrayal and insult (a stabbed heart, a slap on the face), etc.


As it happens, the subject for the PTOW is...  Protest!

So add your pimp...  see http://www.istockphoto.com/forum_messages.php?threadid=254142&page=1

« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2010, 11:49 »
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Any trust I might have in iStock is gone, rather as it is with Fotolia.  But I'd continue the business relationship under the old terms: 20% as an independent.  No lower; if they can't run a business on 80% (or think they need to screw with me to make exclusives feel better), I'll walk away.

« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2010, 11:54 »
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What is the minimum that iStock needs to do, or not do, in order to make everyone content?

Promise not to lower it any more.  Like really, really promise; pinky swear.  ::)

« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2010, 12:01 »
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What is the minimum that iStock needs to do, or not do, in order to make everyone content?

I think iStock has made real damage to itself, it needs years of time to redeem itself.

But I would be happy to see following:
* All non-exclusives get 20%, just like earlier

* The new idea of giving exclusives royalties according to recent performance isn't such a bad idea (the implementation is really bad.
They could:
1) set the rates so that they would penaliza only a handful of contributors, not the majority.
2) guarantee that a certain percentage
of exclusive contributors would ALWAYS fall in each category, for example:

5% of exclusives would get 45%
15% of exclusives would get 40%
20% of exclusives would get 35%
25% of exclusives would get 30%
35% of exclusives would get 25%
(there could be a level for each 1%)

THIS WOULD BE A PREDICTABLE, FAIR, TRANSPARENT AND SUSTAINABLE SYSTEM

*They would also need to fire some people.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 12:02 by Perry »

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2010, 12:08 »
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What is the minimum that iStock needs to do, or not do, in order to make everyone content?
Honour their promise to keep us 'grandfathered in' to the next level would do it for me.
But I'd also like them to treat others more fairly, including independents (no rate cut for them); keeping Vetta etc at the agreed percentage.
Don't even think about bringing in 'Agency' files.
But I'm whistling down the wind.
I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you Nietzsche

alias

« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2010, 12:31 »
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I can't remember if it is Alias or Sentinel, but one of them has been advocating for a couple of years that IS exclusives also save a copy of their images keyworded in the exif for other sites, and to get generic releases on all shoots, just as a precaution in case it's needed.

We are all independents whether monogamous, polygamous or clibataire.

helix7

« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2010, 23:55 »
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Quote
So what are we all going to do?

Nothing.

And iStock knows it.

I wish I believed that there was going to be some uproar, some mass exodus to a site that pays 50% or more, and a buyer revolt and similar exodus to that same site so we could all happily earn 50%+ per sale instead of the 15-20% non-exclusives will be getting. But I have my doubts that any part of that scenario would ever be possible.

Ever the optimist, I'm trying to support and promote sites that I believe to be operating in a more ethical way, and at the same time steering anyone I talk to about stock (buyers and sellers both) away from iStock. Will it have any effect? Who knows. But short of just completely deleting my iStock portfolio, this at least feels like some sort of effort. In the meantime, I'll keep on cashing out my weekly earnings and feeling a bit like a sell-out in doing so. But until December 31st, at least I know I'm still selling images at iStock under the same crappy 20% arrangement that I've always been under. I just wonder how I'll feel about it when it drops to 17% on January 1st, and if I'll still be able to stomach the idea of working with iStock for such a disgustingly low percentage. Guess we'll see then. 

grp_photo

« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2010, 01:34 »
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There are alot of other agencies to work with. To begin with Alamy. I make very good $$$$ on there and they give you 60% on each sale. Yes 60%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Not some slave wage at 15%. And for big fees. Good people at Alamy. Can't fault them. However classic micro style wont sell too well on there. You got to submit editorial style.
Can I just correct this: yes, you get 60% if you sell directly through Alamy. However, if sales are made via their distributers, the distributer fee comes off your 60%. And while fees can be big, a lot of editorial sales are to education and newspapers, who get bi-i-i-i-g discounts off the published prices, so fees can be lower than an EL at iStock would be for the same use.
That said, I've been building my port at Alamy at the expense of my iStock port for some months now.
You can't expect big money quickly (but you could get lucky!): even after you get sales it takes weeks or months for the cash to come in to Alamy so that you can get your hands on it.
So for the moment, I'll continue with the plan of supplying Alamy (editorial) primarily, and keeping a watching brief on my port at iStock and looking at alternatives as time goes on.
Sales directly through Alamy are the majority by a wide margin, you can option out for sales via distribution, sales via a distributor are split like this 40% for the distributor, 20% for Alamy and 40% for you still pretty fair IMHO, Novel Use sales are 50/50 split you can option out for this too.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 01:36 by grp_photo »


 

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