Author Topic: What I said to Lucky Oliver today (Read 11350 times)

rinderart · « **on:** March 26, 2007, 23:23 »

Bryan , Ill say this again and it's the last time. Because this site is new, I really think you should do a payout at $50.00 instead of $100.00. I know for sure there are sites with 10,000+ submitters that will never receive a payout. Smart business tells me that, That money that sometimes will never be paid goes to a interest account That the site makes money on. I firmly believe ....this sucks. Until this site starts getting good sales you should at once lower the payout. There are plenty of new sites that do this now. This should be your #1 Priority. I dont have loyalty to any site, Never have and never will. My loyalty is to the artist's that take the time to do this. That , And nothing else should be your main concern. Without us My friend , your dead. Do this Now. This message will go a long way. As you know I talk to more people daily than all sites combined Do. This is a Big Issue. Your friend, Laurin. I will post this on all the talk Micro sites.

bryan_luckyoliver · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2007, 00:21 »

Hey Laurin...since we're friends, I thought I'd post my reply here from the blog as well.

Hey Laurin, thanks for the comments.

You're in good company- LuckyOliver also believes in our artists. It's our goal to bridge the gap between Carnies and Olivers- and I hope this shows. We're determined to create a great experience that will produce revenue for many people. Some people are already benefiting from LuckyOliver. It's my hope we can pull others into the mix.

We're not really focused on what other sites are doing...we're still not done with our development and have a lot more to roll out for our Olivers and Carnies. Creating a scalable site requires a baseline functionality- we're still not there yet.

1. I mentioned ealier in this post that we're still trying to understand the metrics. We'd prefer to be conservative. As for interest on your money? I'm guessing the t-shirt (given at 100 downloads) is more than the interest earned right now. We're also covering the the transaction fee which starts to add up over time. We'll look at our program in the middle of the year.

2. Carnies can convert royalties to tokens as soon as you reach ten dollars! Many Carnies need those tokens on LuckyOliver.

We feel good about the progress we've made on the site. As we roll out new features I think you'll find that there is more and more for everyone.

Thanks for all your hard work!

Greg Boiarsky · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2007, 01:12 »

You need to understand something from the point of view of the supplier: We need to see that you have a viable business model and that our efforts will pay off within a reasonable period of time. When you say that the interest on our balances won't pay for the t-shirts, it says a few things. First, it says that sales are tanked. Second, it says that you should not give us shirts, but rather the money that would have paid for the shirts--or invest that money in marketing. I'll be blunt here: I don't want to be a walking advertisement. I'm a photographer with my own business to promote. LO is just one aspect of that business.

At what point will you feel that you have "baseline functionality"? You have a scalable infrastructure. You have a speedy search engine. You have a growing image base, a collection that is of better quality than many established microstocks. You're set up with Money Bookers and PayPal. You can handle sales and accounting. Any future features should be put on hold until you can demonstrate that your marketing is reaching buyers.

I'm with Laurin on this one, if not quite so irate. If you can't afford $50 payouts, then offer $75 payouts. Offer stock options. Offer anything of tangible worth. Don't offer to convert our earnings to tokens. A large proportion of us don't buy images. We produce them.

This is a completely unfair comparison, and I know it, but we all remember Totally Photos.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Quote from: bryan_luckyoliver on March 27, 2007, 00:21

Hey Laurin...since we're friends, I thought I'd post my reply here from the blog as well.

Hey Laurin, thanks for the comments.

You're in good company- LuckyOliver also believes in our artists. It's our goal to bridge the gap between Carnies and Olivers- and I hope this shows. We're determined to create a great experience that will produce revenue for many people. Some people are already benefiting from LuckyOliver. It's my hope we can pull others into the mix.

We're not really focused on what other sites are doing...we're still not done with our development and have a lot more to roll out for our Olivers and Carnies. Creating a scalable site requires a baseline functionality- we're still not there yet.

1. I mentioned ealier in this post that we're still trying to understand the metrics. We'd prefer to be conservative. As for interest on your money? I'm guessing the t-shirt (given at 100 downloads) is more than the interest earned right now. We're also covering the the transaction fee which starts to add up over time. We'll look at our program in the middle of the year.

2. Carnies can convert royalties to tokens as soon as you reach ten dollars! Many Carnies need those tokens on LuckyOliver.

We feel good about the progress we've made on the site. As we roll out new features I think you'll find that there is more and more for everyone.

Thanks for all your hard work!

CJPhoto · « **Reply #3 on:** March 27, 2007, 01:27 »

You only payout 30%. You have also accepted that you need to build a business and therefore it will cost you at the start.

It should be costing you, not us. Give us an incentive to stay with you.

bryan_luckyoliver · « **Reply #4 on:** March 27, 2007, 01:35 »

Hey Greg- I'll be on the losing end of any argument when it comes to payouts. I'll add a few additional thoughts- you guys can have the last word.

1. "First, it says that sales are tanked." Greg, they continue to grow faster week by week. In fact, it means just the opposite...if sales happen faster for each Carnie it means we're not making interest. If you're not interested in the shirt...it's no biggie...it'll save us a some money. We thought it would be fun to reach a milestone for each Carnie.

We had the most buyers ever today. We have a lot of people requesting payouts this week.

2. "Don't offer to convert our earnings to tokens". We won't comment on this anymore - you're going to need tokens.

3. Well, not sure what to say about the future of LO- we can sit here an promise a bunch of stuff or work hard each day to show we mean business. Our doors are open, you can talk to me most of the time and we've got a history you can follow on the blog.

Feel free to give me a call!

bryan_luckyoliver · « **Reply #5 on:** March 27, 2007, 01:41 »

CJ (your post got in-between my last post)- so I'll give you guys the last word after this

I've posted this before:

Guys, I thought I would chime in to provide the right type of information.

LuckyOliver stills offers 60% commission to exclusive images. Extended License and Buyouts are both 50%. Our average royalty is 35%. We'll continue to offer variable percentages based on need (our last drive was 60% for noise images). We'll continue to look at our royalty payout as variable, not a fixed number- this is different than most sites. For comparison, Getty gives an average of 15%-17% for royalty free images.

In some ways the percentage doesn't make much sense. Sometimes to create a sale we spend a ton of money for that download. An example: If we do a drive in which we pay for a referral and marketing costs, your cut of a large image could be anywhere between $1.20 and $2.40. Our cut might be -$1.00. This might be balanced out by earning on another drive, but the equation doesn't always work out.

Another example: If you get a download from a subscription site, you get $.25, and if the customer only downloads one image, your cut is far less than 1%. Direct comparison with percentage isn't feasible. In reality a percentage comparison doesn't really make sense- average dollars earned per photo is a better metric- you can then weight it by either future potential earnings or immediate volume. It will give you a sense of earning potential.

We give substantial discounts to Olivers that buy tokens in bulk. So really the percentage given to Carnies is really not accurate (it's higher). For some Olivers the value of a token is much lower ($.83)...but we still consider our payout royalty on the assumption that your getting $1 for a token. This benefits artists. We might clarify this on our payout chart.

We're still growing. It's going to take some time guys, but we're actively working on creating opportunity everyday. Some people have already had some early success on our site, but the vast majority of Carnies are going to have to hang in there as our volume of traffic increases. You guys have been superstars so far and we appreciate all your efforts.

Feel free to email me if you ever have questions!

rjmiz · « **Reply #6 on:** March 27, 2007, 04:08 »

My concerns are this.
I'm a really selfish guy. I admit it. However I did after all pay a lot of money for my camera equipment ($15,000).
And money, seems to pre-occupy my mind when it comes to selling stock photos.
My point is "I wanna see a return on my investment"

The facts are these:
1. LO is an new and emerging site. They don't have the presence other sites have.
2. I have 157 images on site, and only 12 DL's with a total of $19.40 im my account, of which $11.00 is for referrals.
3. I have been with them since August of 2006.

My concerns are:
If I have to wait till I have $100 in my account, I will never, get a pay out.
LO will sometime in the future fold up, and along with it goes all the money I've earned so far.

Can someone put me at ease, and tell me everything is gonna be alright, and that my concerns are un warranted?

It seems to me a $50 payout appears more "Reachable" at this point in time. AT least I might see something for my efforts.

Photoguy · « **Reply #7 on:** March 27, 2007, 06:41 »

The $50 payout sends a message to contributors that the site is making concessions in lieu of site volume. If Bigstock, Canstock, StockXpert can do it then it almost seems that Lucky Oliver is pushing a losing argument, which will drive out contributor goodwill.

I saw a full page ad in Photoshop magazine yesterday...........it blew me away that it was Bigstock, no wonder I'm seeing good sales there. I have not seen a full page or double page ad for Lucky O...........just a trade show with ducks!!

Brian, you know you will have to do the $50 payout, doing it now gets you goodwill, do it in some months time will not.

maunger · « **Reply #8 on:** March 27, 2007, 06:59 »

another way to look at it is as a goal. (i know i'll get slammed for this but maybe it is good to have the $ value at $100).

at my office, our mangement is always asking us to set 'stretch' goals - something just a bit higher than what we think is a good goal... so maybe $50 would be too easy, and maybe $100 is good to try to get the photogs to submit better images?

not every other site has a $50 payout

maybe contributing more things like comments, links to LO from other sites etc will also help with advertising the site.... maybe it should be all on LO's shoulders? we can help ourselves by helping them.

i'm sitting at about $22 in credits at LO - i'm nowhere close to that second payout (i got the first one from an exclusive sale) but i'm patient. I know that i'll get the $ eventually and it is fun to watch it grow.

Mitch

rjmiz · « **Reply #9 on:** March 27, 2007, 07:46 »

Well I said my peace already regarding the $100 payout.
Permit me now to comment on the attitude I have towards LO with regards to that which I have for other sites I contribute to.

LO is a well organized site.
It's ascetically pleasing to look at.
The reviewers are cheerful and kind. They express a human approach in their comments to contributors.

Volume is low.
They rank very low in search engines.
I subscribe to several trade magazines, and NEVER see them advertise.
They have no forums. Users have no way of communicating. We have to do it on 3rd party forums such as here.
Communications between management and contributors is done "Off Site" like bryan_luckyoliver is doing in this thread.
There lack in a sense of "cummunity". I feel as though I'm the only one in the whole world uploading to LO. Where is everyone?

Motivation! What is motivating users to upload more images?
I want LO to succeed. I think it has potential.

Greg Boiarsky · « **Reply #10 on:** March 27, 2007, 08:35 »

Well said, Bob.

Quote from: rjmiz on March 27, 2007, 07:46

Well I said my peace already regarding the $100 payout.
Permit me now to comment on the attitude I have towards LO with regards to that which I have for other sites I contribute to.

LO is a well organized site.
It's ascetically pleasing to look at.
The reviewers are cheerful and kind. They express a human approach in their comments to contributors.

Volume is low.
They rank very low in search engines.
I subscribe to several trade magazines, and NEVER see them advertise.
They have no forums. Users have no way of communicating. We have to do it on 3rd party forums such as here.
Communications between management and contributors is done "Off Site" like bryan_luckyoliver is doing in this thread.
There lack in a sense of "cummunity". I feel as though I'm the only one in the whole world uploading to LO. Where is everyone?

Motivation! What is motivating users to upload more images?
I want LO to succeed. I think it has potential.

maunger · « **Reply #11 on:** March 27, 2007, 09:12 »

Quote from: rjmiz on March 27, 2007, 07:46

They have no forums. Users have no way of communicating. We have to do it on 3rd party forums such as here.
Communications between management and contributors is done "Off Site" like bryan_luckyoliver is doing in this thread.
There lack in a sense of "cummunity". I feel as though I'm the only one in the whole world uploading to LO. Where is everyone?

you can communicate with others on LO thru the blog postings and the LO staff (in my opinion) is certainly communicating much more than most of the other sites do thru the blog.

LO has stated several times that features like forums are coming and they are a high priority.

and bryan has often stated in the blogs that they're going thru a different route to get customers to start - not doing the traditional advertising. Read the blogs for more info.

CJPhoto · « **Reply #12 on:** March 27, 2007, 09:44 »

What is good about LO is they are trying to do things differently. if they were just a clone of the others, I wouldn't be so keen to give them a shot.

A lot of what i see in forums is a waste of time (the good thing about this forum is it is mainly just information) rather than games and site issues (i haven't got paid, my photo isn't showing up).

rjmiz · « **Reply #13 on:** March 27, 2007, 10:05 »

"What is good about LO is they are trying to do things differently."

A concern of mine is what? What THINGS are they doing differently? Second question I would like to attempt is: ...and is it working?
I only ask that second question because you stated the are "trying" as opposed to doing. I mean I'm very curious. After all I do have an investment with them.

You're right....I'll have to go through the blog now to catch up. Thanks for the suggestion.

Void · « **Reply #14 on:** March 27, 2007, 16:25 »

I have lost faith in LO so there will be no encouraging words from me.
If the sales are truly happening, there is no REAL reason not to lower the payout. But I suppose we have to pay Bryan's bills as well, he does need the paycheck more than we do right?

But does the future of LO exisit with real payouts.....what was it he said in his post "You will need those tokens" ?
For what to buy stuff like LO beer coasters and t shirts?
Yeah the blog can be interesting but it is under complete control.
Anyone that has built a website knows how easy it is to install forums.....

and yeah the site is "hip and cool" but when I go searching for images, it is the places like shutterstock, istock and bigstock etc that do the trick.
I like efficiency on the web, not a circus when it comes to purchasing.

They can be different all they want but....traditional business practices always win in the end.

a couple of months ago i deleted more than half my gallery due to lack of sales and hearing the same old same old....i gave them a shot and decided to trim the fat and only put my pictures where they sell....why help line someone elses pocket, if they dont want to line mine?
$100 payouts are fine for places like dreamstime and istock, where the stuff really sells, but come on....

Of all the payouts, I like fotolia the best, you can request it anytime and all they do is deduct a buck, very cool!

Over at Lucky O in the future we may be getting stuffed animals for payouts, just like at the carnival.....

all that aside....
Who remembers the Clash and how they broke up?
Joe Strummer told Mick Jones that he was living in a marijuana induced fantasyland......

a.k.a.-tom · « **Reply #15 on:** March 28, 2007, 00:07 »

Quote from: Void on March 27, 2007, 16:25

Over at Lucky O in the future we may be getting stuffed animals for payouts, just like at the carnival.....

Void, dude, .... harsh...

but I can dig where you're coming from. With my meager 13 sales (& 12,400 plus views of a 200+ 'folio)... I won't be seeing a payout at this pace for a loooooooooooong time to come.
However, I'm not going anywhere yet. I'm not bailing, I'm sticking in there. I still think they've got the right idea and the potential for something different. And different in a positive way. I know first-hand it is a major pain in the butt getting a new business off the ground. You usually lose your shirt... pants and just about everything else before you start racking up profits. It's going to take time.
I would like to see a lower payout. I'd feel better about that. I don't mind a $100 point when I'm selling by the dozens like SS.
Are there places that ought to be bailed out of? You bet, and I'm in the process with a couple (USPS is first). Just ain't worth the aggravation. But I don't think LO is one of them.
On the other hand...I could be wrong... I remember telling my wife, I'm sticking with USPS, I think they'll take off. LOL
But I'm not ready to give up on Bryan and the folks at LO. No, I'm not on the payroll... LOL, however, I did ask for a job when he opens the east coast office.

peace.....

-tom

p.s. I would be interested in some of those LO beer coasters! They'd look good sitting under a frosty Heineken. Now, there's a cool item!! Think I'll go get one now.... LOL

Greg Boiarsky · « **Reply #16 on:** March 28, 2007, 01:17 »

Replace that Heineken with a Guinness and I'm with you.

Quote from: a.k.a.-tom on March 28, 2007, 00:07

p.s. I would be interested in some of those LO beer coasters! They'd look good sitting under a frosty Heineken. Now, there's a cool item!! Think I'll go get one now.... LOL

maunger · « **Reply #17 on:** March 28, 2007, 06:53 »

Quote from: Void on March 27, 2007, 16:25

I have lost faith in LO so there will be no encouraging words from me.

Sorry to hear of your loss dude.

I'm in the opposite boat. I'm as happy as a clam with LO - call me crazy.

I think one difference between you and me is that I've talked to bryan on the phone. His energy is motivating.

What other micro can you just call up and talk to the CEO? What other micro posts so frequently on the blog? And I don't believe that the blog is "under complete control" - the only time i've ever seen posts removed was when they were way out of bounds and anyone would have removed them. Oh, and LO's forums won't just be canned forums that you can just download and install on a website.

LO is not like every other stock photo site. It is very different and plans to stay that way.

Again, i'm sorry to hear that you're disappointed in LO and i encourage you to keep an open eye... but if not, i still wish you the best of success!

Mitch

StockManiac · « **Reply #18 on:** March 28, 2007, 10:12 »

Quote from: maunger on March 28, 2007, 06:53

LO is not like every other stock photo site. It is very different and plans to stay that way.

And how is it different?

Underneath the cute carnival skin, they seem to be the same as every other site out there.

They don't offer higher royalties. They don't offer lower payouts. They don't specialize in any specific genre. In other words, they don't offer anything new.

While it is refreshing that the CEO takes the time to communicate with others, it is also a marketing strategy on his part to win over people's hearts by his nice demeanor. I guarantee that if the site gets big, you will hardly hear from him at all (especially if you are a small contributor).

KiwiRob · « **Reply #19 on:** March 28, 2007, 10:27 »

What's all this crap about carnies and olivers, i don't get it, nor do I see why I would ever want tokens. It's gimicks like this that put me off new sites, plus I was burned by Totally Photos who folded and took 50 odd dollars of my cash and ran, that's why I will not piss around with startups they ain't going anywhere the market is already pretty saturated with good sites, i don't see why buyers need to try itty bitty sites when they lack content.

Karimala · « **Reply #20 on:** March 28, 2007, 11:10 »

I'm with Mitch on this one.

I'm fortunate enough to live relatively close to LO's HQ, so when they hosted a Ballyhoo photo shoot, I jumped on the opportunity to check them out. I had heard horror story after horror story of start-up micros screwing over their contributors, and I wasn't about to take a chance of that happening to me. So I went to the Ballyhoo and met Jill face to face...and walked away incredibly impressed. I went on to help them organize another Ballyhoo, where I met Bryan. He blew me away. He's an incredible guy who knows what he's doing with his company, and is looking out for each and every one of us. Right then and there I made the decision to join their team as a Bouncer, and thank God every day that I did.

Rock on, LO!!!

mattb · « **Reply #21 on:** March 28, 2007, 12:08 »

Personally, I'm sticking with LO.

They really are doing things differently. I'm sure Bryon knows he has an uphill battle and hence the guerrilla marketing tactics(suggestion to Bryan, I wouldn't try Cartoon Networks strategy though

). None of the other smaller sites are taking this approach and it's probably the way they have a chance of surviving. End the end though, they will eventually have to deliver the goods.

Also, a 50$ payout would also be nice, not that I'm close.

berryspun · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2007, 12:11 »

After the TP fiasco, I hesitated joining a new site before it showed some signs of stability. The masquerade approach of LO and the weird invented vocabulary, like carnies, etc. didn't -and still don't - inspire me. The human contacts did. As it did for TP...

I joined a few weeks too early: the Christmas season incentive for attracting the 'big fishes' (earning double-pay for life) rewarded the late-comers only, who were able to upload hundreds or thousands of pictures in a short period of time, while I was busy with family responsibilities... But is sure brought plenty of new oxygen to LO, which was well needed.

The upload process is so easy that it reminds me of the 'One-Click' Amazon feature. Once the pictures are ready for the other main sites, it's no time-consuming at all to add them via FTP to the LO site too. So, what to lose? I'll continue uploading there, without expecting much sales at this point.

The $50 payout minimum would be a nice way to show contributors that their money isn't used for something else... but personally with only 10 downloads up till now I'll have to wait a while anyway.

Let's hope for the best

dbvirago · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2007, 14:07 »

I've have been a proponent of LO since last July. I had just had my images and money stolen from totally photos and wasn't going to jump on board without some research. After doing that research, I decided Bryan was a smart guy and a good business person and I would back his play.

I have also said to Bryan in these forums since the beginning that the 'just wait and see' attitude was only going to keep people interested for so long. I think we are reaching the end of that rope. I still believe in the site and still upload there and will continue a while longer. But, we need to see something soon besides hype and promises. I have a bunch of tokens, but don't see the ability to use them for anything. I haven't had a download since Feb. 27 no matter how many great days LO has had.

To be honest, I would rather the $50 v $100 payout be a moot point. If, like Canstock, I'm always harping about a lower payout, then it's time to bail. If the sales are happening, it shouldn't matter what the payout is. But right now, the sales aren't happening. When I see people like the Prof and Laurin asking for lower payouts, then I know I'm in the deep end of the pool.

Bryan, I'm sure your business plan has you losing money from some number of months, if not years. Mine doesn't. I've invested the same amount of time in LO as the other sites and right now my ROI from LO is dead last.

Show us something. Anything

a.k.a.-tom · « **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2007, 15:32 »

Quote from: Professorgb on March 28, 2007, 01:17

Replace that Heineken with a Guinness and I'm with you.

That works for me, Professor. T'was my drink of choice when I lived in England! Only problem, it usually wasn't frosty... however that didn't stop me and the gang from closing up for the night with our local pub proprietor.

-tom

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Author Topic: What I said to Lucky Oliver today (Read 11350 times)

rinderart

bryan_luckyoliver

Greg Boiarsky

CJPhoto

bryan_luckyoliver

bryan_luckyoliver

rjmiz

Photoguy

maunger

rjmiz

Greg Boiarsky

maunger

CJPhoto

rjmiz

Void

a.k.a.-tom

Greg Boiarsky

maunger

StockManiac

KiwiRob

Karimala

mattb

berryspun

dbvirago

a.k.a.-tom

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