MicrostockGroup Sponsors


Author Topic: Maybe it's time to make a cooperative microstock agency?  (Read 14087 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2012, 13:19 »
0
I think its a good idea personally, trouble is i think everyone has a different idea. However looking on the brighter side, whatever the outcome it may not be perfect but would be a darn sight fairer than the majority of the current big agencies out there. I think all it would need is for a few people to take the reigns and come up with a proposal and then maybe setup a donation fund to get it running. Like this for example in terms of people donating money for something that they want http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console

The downside would obviously be many people with many different ideas but if someone were to come up with a proposal of how it might work you could simply agree then donate and become a part of it or not agree and stay out of it.

The upside would be portfolio, just think of how many talented top players visit here, this has got to be the single most biggest thing that agencies want and we could have it immediately - portfolio. This would send shivers down any agency's spine :)


« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2012, 14:37 »
0
I agree.
But donations should be the minimum, specific and transparent
(for example to pay for hosting). The main business model is to make a pleasant and friendly
Ready to take part in this group

Poncke

« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2012, 08:48 »
0
Will never work, too many big heads in here.  8)

« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2012, 09:07 »
+2

I also take name of people interested. Most non-exclusive contributors seems to be interested by the idea.

Some exclusives don't seem to like the idea. Even if I don't agree with them, I kind of understand.

I think, in the future, it's the only choice we will have.

And I won't let anyone discourage me. 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 16:08 by Buying-Images.com »

« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2012, 09:34 »
0
The cart moved forward.
I have 3 hours to lay out their thoughts

Poncke

« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2012, 12:08 »
0
I made a list of things to consider to start a cooperative: http://tonytremblay.com/coop/

I also take name of people interested. Most non-exclusive contributors seems to be interested by the idea.

Some exclusives don't seem to like the idea. Even if I don't agree with them, I kind of understand.

I think, in the future, it's the only choice we will have.

And I won't let anyone discourage me.


Your review process, how will that work?

« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2012, 12:10 »
+1
I did a bit of an outline plan, but first:
Today, the market is difficult images. No vacancy
Need huge investment, but for one company.
If such a company will appear, it wants to recover their investment
and profit. Therefore the interest of authors small.
Investments are needed to attract sponsors for the technical part, to pay for super administrators (who migrate from one company to another),
advertising and ...
Let's do (think about how to make) these investments to be involved (design, programming, articles, social networks ....)
Us all, everywhere and always say millions, millions, millions, millions $ $
But is it true?
Why we do not want to figure it out?
Why are we lazy?
Why are we such cowards?
Why we do not believe in your own potential?
We have about 10,000 people - is a big skilled force.
Let's make the first move.

Here's a little plan.
A. Divide the project into several parts
1 Legal status
2 The technical
3 Pricing
4 Advertising and promotion
B. Invite people to these tasks
C. Discuss and clarify the options
D. Every participant works for free and makes a very small part of

« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2012, 12:12 »
0
Let's make the first move.

Go right ahead.

« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2012, 13:07 »
+2
It is almost certainly not going to happen __ ever. The SS IPO document revealed the truth about the actual costs involved in running a microstock agency and it's probably fair to say that they were much higher than most of us realised. Assuming that our own 'co-operative' could be as effective and efficient as SS currently are (and that's a very big assumption) then the only gain we would make would be the 17% profit that they make __ which we would probably need to re-invest in the business anyway.

Yes, I know, you'll say we could control/raise prices. But that's not working for Istock is it? We can't get rid of subscriptions either, as many would like, because there will always be a market for them and agencies to provide for it. We can't un-invent subscriptions and we can't un-invent all the major agencies that currently dominate our marketplace either. If we don't provide for big chunks of the market then we can be sure that others will.

SS are already the closest we are likely to get as a co-operative. You'll soon be able to buy stock and thus share in the profits and growth of the company you have helped to build. You'll be able to pore over the quarterly financial reports and attend shareholders' meetings too. You'll even be able to sack the board if enough of you vote to do so.

Ever since IS introduced their exclusivity programme (in 2005?) Shutterstock have had to walk the tightrope of paying contributors as much as they could afford (to prevent them becoming exclusive) whilst retaining enough money to grow their business. IMHO they've done a fantastic job in doing so __ way better than any other agency. I've been with SS nearly 8 years and the growth in my monthly earnings has been almost directly in-line with the growth of my portfolio. Taking seasonal fluctuations into account it is still virtually a straight-line graph. Even in August I'll only be marginally short of a BME. Together with BigStock, Shutterstock now consistently generates about 50% of my microstock earnings and that is still rising. With every month that passes the significance of all other agencies diminishes in importance. I only bother uploading to 3 agencies nowadays (SS, IS & FT). The others aren't worth the time and hassle of doing so for me.

Instead of wringing hands and gnashing teeth maybe we should be grateful to have SS to rely on. We've probably got quite a good balance between the agencies right now. Things could certainly be much worse.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2012, 13:17 »
0
Why are we lazy?
Why are we such cowards?
Why we do not believe in your own potential?
We have about 10,000 people - is a big skilled force.
Let's make the first move.

Here's a little plan.
A. Divide the project into several parts
1 Legal status
2 The technical
3 Pricing
4 Advertising and promotion
B. Invite people to these tasks
C. Discuss and clarify the options
D. Every participant works for free and makes a very small part of

The people with the huge, marketable stock files that you need wouldn't have the time to be heavily involved in the background tasks. Those that have the time wouldn't be likely to be the big hitters.
In general.

« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2012, 13:50 »
0
Quote
The people with the huge, marketable stock files that you need wouldn't have the time to be heavily involved in the background tasks. Those that have the time wouldn't be likely to be the big hitters.
In general.
I have thousands of pictures (now it is not much).
But if I am asked to do a job (2 - 3 hours) for our "cooperative" of the agency - I am happy to do

« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2012, 14:00 »
0
It is almost certainly not going to happen __ ever. The SS IPO document revealed the truth about the actual costs involved in running a microstock agency and it's probably fair to say that they were much higher than most of us realised. Assuming that our own 'co-operative' could be as effective and efficient as SS currently are (and that's a very big assumption) then the only gain we would make would be the 17% profit that they make __ which we would probably need to re-invest in the business anyway.

Yes, I know, you'll say we could control/raise prices. But that's not working for Istock is it? We can't get rid of subscriptions either, as many would like, because there will always be a market for them and agencies to provide for it. We can't un-invent subscriptions and we can't un-invent all the major agencies that currently dominate our marketplace either. If we don't provide for big chunks of the market then we can be sure that others will.

SS are already the closest we are likely to get as a co-operative. You'll soon be able to buy stock and thus share in the profits and growth of the company you have helped to build. You'll be able to pore over the quarterly financial reports and attend shareholders' meetings too. You'll even be able to sack the board if enough of you vote to do so.

Ever since IS introduced their exclusivity programme (in 2005?) Shutterstock have had to walk the tightrope of paying contributors as much as they could afford (to prevent them becoming exclusive) whilst retaining enough money to grow their business. IMHO they've done a fantastic job in doing so __ way better than any other agency. I've been with SS nearly 8 years and the growth in my monthly earnings has been almost directly in-line with the growth of my portfolio. Taking seasonal fluctuations into account it is still virtually a straight-line graph. Even in August I'll only be marginally short of a BME. Together with BigStock, Shutterstock now consistently generates about 50% of my microstock earnings and that is still rising. With every month that passes the significance of all other agencies diminishes in importance. I only bother uploading to 3 agencies nowadays (SS, IS & FT). The others aren't worth the time and hassle of doing so for me.

Instead of wringing hands and gnashing teeth maybe we should be grateful to have SS to rely on. We've probably got quite a good balance between the agencies right now. Things could certainly be much worse.

You make a good point in terms of Shutterstock.  Most people will probably be also able to purchase a equal % of stock as they have stock photos... which could be one way of working a co-op.   It will be interesting to see the stock price when it is released.

« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2012, 14:08 »
0
It is not impossible.
Crowdsourcing is many things and the net connects people.

Over here in Denmark we had great many cooperatives in the last century. Typically within the distribution of milk, butter and meat. They were not small.
They worked, they were a lifestyle and they were GOOD at competing with sheer capitalism.

The financials we typically arranged this way:
People bought small shares. Fx a farmer bought a share in the butchery.
Loans from banks.

The producers then had a stabile distribution channel, and depending on the market prices, the surplus was delivered back to the contributers as dividend or bonus.
Production greatly benifited from cooperatives, new livestock races were bread and perfected, new techniques were implemented. The result is, that Denmark today, has an advanced diary industry and is market leading in many ways.

All it takes is a dedicated group of people, who can come up with well working business plan and a description of the cooperative.
I think it can be done i 2 ways:
The slow approach, where many little fish work together, there are many contributers who are also buyers.
Or the coup dtat approach, where a packet of money headhunts some of the key customer relations people from well funktioning agencies.
It is obvious that prices would be competitive.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2012, 14:32 »
0
Quote
The people with the huge, marketable stock files that you need wouldn't have the time to be heavily involved in the background tasks. Those that have the time wouldn't be likely to be the big hitters.
In general.
I have thousands of pictures (now it is not much).
But if I am asked to do a job (2 - 3 hours) for our "cooperative" of the agency - I am happy to do
2-3 hours a day? a week?

« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2012, 14:36 »
0
Quote
2-3 hours a day? a week?
A lifetime. For example you web designer, your job is to make the front page. And all.
I see this as an automated self-service shop-warehouse.
This is not a co-op - a mechanism sale.
Suppose - software almost free, hosting $ 0.05 per 1 GB per month.
Or 25 GB for free from Microsoft (per account)
Each investor site, blog, article (link) + social network.
How do you think will be the effect?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 14:47 by Oleg »

« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2012, 18:24 »
0
the pictures are allready hosted, - we are connected to the net.

« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2012, 20:30 »
0
Your review process, how will that work?


Just spitballing here, but one way to handle the review process is to break it into smaller components that can be gamified and let anyone who has an account (buyer, seller, affiliate or whoever) participate.  I've been thinking about experimenting with this at toonvectors.com.

Ideally, you have a series of quickly answerable yes/no questions or short fill-in-the-blank like the following:
  • Do you like the quality of this image? Y/N
  • Is this title relevant for the image? Y / N
  • Is this description relevant for the image? Y / N
  • Is this keyword relevant for the image? Y / N
  • Write / edit title for this image.
  • Write / edit description for this image.
  • Write / edit keyword(s) for this image.

Points are awarded to the participant for answering these.  To prevent abuse, points are removed if the participant is deemed "wrong" - i.e. their Y/N answer does not agree with the consensus or their suggested titles, descriptions and keywords are deemed irrelevant.  Each participant has an overall confidence score which is calculated as the deviation from the consensus of others who answered the same question for the same image.  If a participant's confidence score drops too low, then they are suspended from reviewing (or banned in extreme cases).

Image quality and title/description/keyword relevancy scores for an image are calculated as an average weighted by participant confidence.  Each image has a separate title, description and keyword set for each language supported by the site. The currently highest ranking title and description in each language are used for the image and the participant who suggested them gets bonus points.  Only keywords above a certain relevancy threshold are applied to the image.  Furthermore, image quality and keyword scores are used as tie-breakers for search result relevancy sorting.

A newly submitted image would not be published until it has reached some minimum threshold of quality and relevancy.  Images are also removed from publication if they drop below thresholds of quality and relevancy - this could occur in two stages: 1) removed from search, and 2) permanently deleted.

Other aspects: a purchase counts as a positive quality vote (with likely more weight than a regular vote).  Embedded metadata counts as participation from the contributor for their own images.  It should be made possible for a contributor to gain a high enough participant confidence score to have their images auto-published.

So why would anyone participate in the review process?

  • For quality sellers, the possibility of auto-publication along with some amount of control over search placement might be sufficient motivation.
  • Some people might actually think it is "fun" just to participate and climb the ranks of a participant leader board.
  • Participant points could be used as an input variable to calculate a voting share for site decisions.
  • Participant points could be used as an input variable to calculate a slice for profit sharing if a percentage of site profits were allocated for this.

As an addendum, if pricing by image complexity tiers is supported on the site, then this could also be made part of the points game.  Plenty of other back-end maintenance tasks could be added as well.

« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2012, 00:21 »
+1
People seems afraid of the work to be done, but it' s like any other things.. you start small and you grow up.
If you look at all the things you will need to achieve to be successful, you might get discouraged. The trick is to take it one step at the time.

It's always easier to find excuses to do nothing... like the old legacy stock photographers did.

« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2012, 02:21 »
0
I propose to begin discussion of item number 1. Legal form.
What will it be?, Joint stock company, limited liability company, a cooperative?
I suggest getting ready site shop. Calculate% fee for authors (eg 70-99%). Make a collective agreement by store. The author makes a profit only on their sales. Devise a method of control and influence

Poncke

« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2012, 02:50 »
0
Your review process, how will that work?


Just spitballing here, but one way to handle the review process is to break it into smaller components that can be gamified and let anyone who has an account (buyer, seller, affiliate or whoever) participate.  I've been thinking about experimenting with this at toonvectors.com.

Ideally, you have a series of quickly answerable yes/no questions or short fill-in-the-blank like the following:
  • Do you like the quality of this image? Y/N
  • Is this title relevant for the image? Y / N
  • Is this description relevant for the image? Y / N
  • Is this keyword relevant for the image? Y / N
  • Write / edit title for this image.
  • Write / edit description for this image.
  • Write / edit keyword(s) for this image.

Points are awarded to the participant for answering these.  To prevent abuse, points are removed if the participant is deemed "wrong" - i.e. their Y/N answer does not agree with the consensus or their suggested titles, descriptions and keywords are deemed irrelevant.  Each participant has an overall confidence score which is calculated as the deviation from the consensus of others who answered the same question for the same image.  If a participant's confidence score drops too low, then they are suspended from reviewing (or banned in extreme cases).

Image quality and title/description/keyword relevancy scores for an image are calculated as an average weighted by participant confidence.  Each image has a separate title, description and keyword set for each language supported by the site. The currently highest ranking title and description in each language are used for the image and the participant who suggested them gets bonus points.  Only keywords above a certain relevancy threshold are applied to the image.  Furthermore, image quality and keyword scores are used as tie-breakers for search result relevancy sorting.

A newly submitted image would not be published until it has reached some minimum threshold of quality and relevancy.  Images are also removed from publication if they drop below thresholds of quality and relevancy - this could occur in two stages: 1) removed from search, and 2) permanently deleted.

Other aspects: a purchase counts as a positive quality vote (with likely more weight than a regular vote).  Embedded metadata counts as participation from the contributor for their own images.  It should be made possible for a contributor to gain a high enough participant confidence score to have their images auto-published.

So why would anyone participate in the review process?

  • For quality sellers, the possibility of auto-publication along with some amount of control over search placement might be sufficient motivation.
  • Some people might actually think it is "fun" just to participate and climb the ranks of a participant leader board.
  • Participant points could be used as an input variable to calculate a voting share for site decisions.
  • Participant points could be used as an input variable to calculate a slice for profit sharing if a percentage of site profits were allocated for this.

As an addendum, if pricing by image complexity tiers is supported on the site, then this could also be made part of the points game.  Plenty of other back-end maintenance tasks could be added as well.


Two things, I think this will not work because its too much work. For buyers and contributors both. SS accepts 80.000 photos a week, I think they accept about 10% of what is submitted. Lets say, you need to review 250.000 photos per week. Ouch.

Second, who is going to write the code for that? That looks like complicated math to me.

« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2012, 02:50 »
0
first you need to establish a platform for communication.
Then an adress, and a legal entity, based on a foundation paper.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 03:05 by JPSDK »

« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2012, 02:58 »
0
Somebody let me know when we get past the parts we've discussed 20 times before.

« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2012, 03:06 »
0
you are free to not participate, and sit and polish your crown instead.

« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2012, 03:15 »
0
Quality control - no censorship.
Buyers are not as stupid as people think. Before buying a can and should look, there is the zoom.
This is my opinion, but maybe there is an alternative.
On my site there is a closed category, the beginner can ship there, and we will vote

« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2012, 07:58 »
0
Quote
2-3 hours a day? a week?
A lifetime. For example you web designer, your job is to make the front page. And all.

I assure you that a stock agency spends significantly more than 2 to 3 hours lifetime on the design of its front page.

There is nothing wrong about the concept of a coop. There will always be doubting Thomases, and they don't have to be a part of it. We have a co-op farmer's market about an hour from my house that draws people from all across the state. It's huge, and hugely successful. People who buy there do so for both the quality, and because they believe in supporting other local people instead of corporations.

However I think you vastly underestimate the amount of work to be done. Getting onto the first page of Google is not something which you can simply assign to one of the workers. And it will take years, not hours.


 

Sponsors

Mega Bundle of 5,900+ Professional Lightroom Presets

Microstock Poll Results

Sponsors