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Author Topic: Fired!  (Read 4942 times)

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Goofy

« on: January 27, 2014, 17:44 »
+6
My local dance club informed me that I was being replaced by another photographer that would shot their dance performances for FREE!

I use to charge $200 for a full two hour session plus process the images (Usually around 200 images). The guy that replaced me works as a software engineer for Microsoft and has a Nikon D800e- his photos were very bright and clear at ISO 400 where my Canon had to use ISO 800 or higher.  Thus the dance club got a better photographer and for FREE. Thus another potential income fades away from me. Looks like 2014 is going to be a rough one... :-\




donding

  • Think before you speak
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2014, 17:50 »
+9
My local dance club informed me that I was being replaced by another photographer that would shot their dance performances for FREE!

I use to charge $200 for a full two hour session plus process the images (Usually around 200 images). The guy that replaced me works as a software engineer for Microsoft and has a Nikon D800e- his photos were very bright and clear at ISO 400 where my Canon had to use ISO 800 or higher.  Thus the dance club got a better photographer and for FREE. Thus another potential income fades away from me. Looks like 2014 is going to be a rough one... :-\

Sorry to hear that. I kinda know how you feel. If they can find someone to do it for nothing they will...the question is rather the guy will continue to do it for free after experiencing all the work that is involved.

Oh and just because he has a bigger and better camera does not mean he is a better photographer.... ;)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 17:52 by donding »

« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2014, 17:53 »
+4
Actually he's doing it for a lot less than free since he had to buy a D800.

Does a dance club really want prints big enough that noise at ISO800 was an issue?

This guy may find out that getting nice shots of moving people - indoors, without supplemental lighting - isn't easy and may require more than just a hot new DSLR.


« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 17:55 by stockastic »

Goofy

« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2014, 17:57 »
0
Most are for the web- I saw his images- actually nice! Some print outs (8 x10) as well done by him. He makes over 200K at microsoft thus money means nothing to him. This is just a hobby for him...

« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2014, 18:02 »
+12
Most are for the web- I saw his images- actually nice! Some print outs (8 x10) as well done by him. He makes over 200K at microsoft thus money means nothing to him. This is just a hobby for him...

well thats even a more kick to the grapenuts
the guy makes 200k a year , this means nothing to him, but he's willing to do it without thinking that this takes away a job from someone who needs it..

I don't know what to say to that...

« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2014, 18:12 »
+1
Most are for the web- I saw his images- actually nice! Some print outs (8 x10) as well done by him. He makes over 200K at microsoft thus money means nothing to him. This is just a hobby for him...

sorry but this is one very strange story, sure people do stuff for free but a guy doing 200k in another job? how many times a month is he going to shot for free?

« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2014, 18:13 »
+29
When they call you to come back in a couple of months because he would rather be at the beach than working for free on weekends.....be sure and tell them that your rate has increased to $300.   ;)

« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2014, 18:51 »
+7
Most are for the web- I saw his images- actually nice! Some print outs (8 x10) as well done by him. He makes over 200K at microsoft thus money means nothing to him. This is just a hobby for him...
Well of course if that's the case, you can't compete, and so be it.  The thing is, though - he'll get bored doing this and the club will eventually have to find someone else.   He may suddenly become unavailable just when they need him - because of a sudden business trip, kid going away to college etc. - and this job isn't really important to him.   Just let the club find out the hard way.


« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 18:59 by stockastic »

« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2014, 18:59 »
+6
Most are for the web- I saw his images- actually nice! Some print outs (8 x10) as well done by him. He makes over 200K at microsoft thus money means nothing to him. This is just a hobby for him...
Well of course if that's the case, you can't compete, and so be it.  The thing is, though - he'll get bored doing this and the club will eventually have to find someone else.   He may suddenly become unavailable just when they need him - business trip, kid going to college etc. - because this job isn't really important to him.

true, when there's no money involved there's no obligation or responsibility owed

ShadySue

« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2014, 19:06 »
0
Actually he's doing it for a lot less than free since he had to buy a D800.
He went out and bought it specially?

« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2014, 19:45 »
+4
How much effort and time do you think someone working for free will provide in the long run? Probably not much. It won't be a priority and he has nothing to lose, so what keeps him from not showing up or just calling it in? The club will learn a lesson.

You can't really demand much from someone working for free.

« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2014, 20:18 »
0
How much effort and time do you think someone working for free will provide in the long run? Probably not much. It won't be a priority and he has nothing to lose, so what keeps him from not showing up or just calling it in? The club will learn a lesson.

You can't really demand much from someone working for free.

The real ,question is why did he do it for free? Is it really for free or is the "photography" free but any enlargements aren't? Unless its charity why on earth would someone really do it for free?

ShadySue

« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2014, 20:22 »
+1
How much effort and time do you think someone working for free will provide in the long run? Probably not much. It won't be a priority and he has nothing to lose, so what keeps him from not showing up or just calling it in? The club will learn a lesson.

You can't really demand much from someone working for free.

The real ,question is why did he do it for free? Is it really for free or is the "photography" free but any enlargements aren't? Unless its charity why on earth would someone really do it for free?

That's what I've been wondering. Is he related to the dance club owner, or something and helping them out?
Or is he going to take the pics and sell them via some equivalent of Photobox?
Or does he want to get out of Microsoft into photography and is trying to get experience/build a portfolio?

« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2014, 20:34 »
+5


Or does he want to get out of Microsoft into photography and is trying to get experience/build a portfolio?

This guy must be the dumbest man on the planet if he leaves a 200K job with Microsoft to do photography

ShadySue

« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2014, 20:37 »
+5


Or does he want to get out of Microsoft into photography and is trying to get experience/build a portfolio?

This guy must be the dumbest man on the planet if he leaves a 200K job with Microsoft to do photography
Maybe he's realised that money isn't what makes him happy.  ::)

Goofy

« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2014, 20:41 »
0
He is single guy (Playboy type) that comes from a rich family. My gut feeling is he is trying to lure some of the dancers to his pad. I drives a 911 GTS Twin Turbo Porsche and has a house on the ocean...

« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2014, 20:51 »
+1
He is single guy (Playboy type) that comes from a rich family. My gut feeling is he is trying to lure some of the dancers to his pad. I drives a 911 GTS Twin Turbo Porsche and has a house on the ocean...

You must really be fond of him now lol :(

I retract " the dumbest man on the planet" remark, and now think he is an evil genius

Goofy

« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2014, 23:16 »
+1
Yeah, The thought of cutting his valve stems on all four of his tires has crossed my mind but MSG folks never would do such a horrible thing  8)


« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2014, 00:13 »
+4
The real ,question is why did he do it for free? Is it really for free or is the "photography" free but any enlargements aren't? Unless its charity why on earth would someone really do it for free?

I've done many projects for free and will probably do many more. Those projects are usually something that mean a great deal to my. In this case, the chance to score with some sexy dancers probably means a lot to him!  :D :D

« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2014, 02:00 »
+6
This seems like one of the perils of having a profession that is indeed quite enjoyable.  So enjoyable that many people are willing to do it for free.  Like professional sports and other forms of art, it's hard to make a living from such professions. 

Time will tell how long the free worker will think it's fun when he has to do it over and over again.


Beppe Grillo

« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2014, 02:51 »
0
My local dance club informed me that I was being replaced by another photographer that would shot their dance performances for FREE!

I use to charge $200 for a full two hour session plus process the images (Usually around 200 images). The guy that replaced me works as a software engineer for Microsoft and has a Nikon D800e- his photos were very bright and clear at ISO 400 where my Canon had to use ISO 800 or higher.  Thus the dance club got a better photographer and for FREE. Thus another potential income fades away from me. Looks like 2014 is going to be a rough one... :-\

Sue him for unfair concurrence

« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2014, 08:34 »
+5
As someone whose main income is not photography (I am a lawyer), I feel like I have to speak up. There is nothing morally wrong with what this guy is doing. Just because there are professional babysitters, am I being evil for taking care of my niece for free now and then?

And while this particular case may hurt our particular photographer, the majority here has already realized the one thing that makes most of these cases play out in favor of pros eventually: He's got another job. He may enjoy photography (certainly when there's hot dancers involved), but he isn't -- can't -- give it the same devotion that a pro can.

« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2014, 08:44 »
+4
200 pictures for free doesn't sound like a good deal, 2 hours shooting, 200 minutes processing RAW to JPG, 200 minutes to edit/crop/etc, that is something like 9 hours (minimum) of hard work for FREE and don't you tell me that is a hobby, its not, I would call it slavery even if voluntary ;D

a few bits missing in this story IMO

ShadySue

« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2014, 08:52 »
0
200 pictures for free doesn't sound like a good deal, 2 hours shooting, 200 minutes processing RAW to JPG, 200 minutes to edit/crop/etc, that is something like 9 hours (minimum) of hard work for FREE and don't you tell me that is a hobby, its not, I would call it slavery even if voluntary ;D

a few bits missing in this story IMO
We don't know that the free tog will spend any time processing, editing or cropping.

« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2014, 09:33 »
+1
200 pictures for free doesn't sound like a good deal, 2 hours shooting, 200 minutes processing RAW to JPG, 200 minutes to edit/crop/etc, that is something like 9 hours (minimum) of hard work for FREE and don't you tell me that is a hobby, its not, I would call it slavery even if voluntary ;D

a few bits missing in this story IMO
We don't know that the free tog will spend any time processing, editing or cropping.

goofy said his pictures were very good, don't think they come that good straight from camera, mine don't, there is always the need to adjust a little exposure, wb, saturation, cropping, etc

« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2014, 09:48 »
+1
Probably the guy is trying to get is hobby to the next level and see how things are when you are shooting a live performance and doing it for free is the easy way to get the job (from you). And he has the D800 because he can, and probably has expensive glass also and that has nothing to do with that job. He just has it because he can. But like others have said, there will be times when he won't be available. A 200k job isn't something you just do from 9 to 5. There will be times when he will be in Bora Bora on vacations with a dancer and there will be times when he will be trying to improve his personal best in Nrburgring with his beloved 911. By then the club will call you back.

Goofy

« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2014, 09:52 »
+2
He shots in Jpeg mode and the images were good in respect to being bright and too grainy but not wall hangers for sure.  Also just found out that he is dating one of the dancers thus he might be done shooting if she tells him no more lol!



Shelma1

« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2014, 10:08 »
+2
Ah, dating one of the dancers....that explains it. So he's at the performances anyway, shooting his girlfriend. Still, cr@ppy of him to take a paying job from you. The other dancers might start to get annoyed when they see 90% of his shots are of one dancer in particular. ;)

« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2014, 10:22 »
+2
We are in an unfortunate profession where there are no entries barriers, such as law, medicine or engineering. Anyone can buy a camera and be a photographer as opposed to buying a drill and doing dental work. Then again, I have done my own plumbing work and have learned to hire a pro after so nasty mistakes!

« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2014, 10:29 »
+3
The playboy photographer might not know he is pushing you out.
The owner does. He took the oppertunity to get free services. People do.

I suggest you talk to the playboy, and tell him your side of the story. That you lost income because of him.
Ask about his grounds, and maybe you can get an agreement: That he photograph his dancer, and you photograph the professional part.

Also you can whisper things about model releases, editorial and lawsuits.
Rich Playboys, listen to sentences with "lawyer" in them, because they know they can be plucked.

« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2014, 10:32 »
+3
I know a lot of photographers who love shooting for free...especially women.  They do good work, and they are dedicated.

There main motivation is the "water cooler talk"..
"what did you do this weekend?" 
"spent some boring time with aunt sally... You?"
"I had a photo session with some hot dancers."

It is always a drag to loose a stream of income. 

« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2014, 10:49 »
0
He is single guy (Playboy type) that comes from a rich family. My gut feeling is he is trying to lure some of the dancers to his pad. I drives a 911 GTS Twin Turbo Porsche and has a house on the ocean...

Oh no!  The ugly girls won't get any photos - just the "potentials"!

« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2014, 11:35 »
0


Or does he want to get out of Microsoft into photography and is trying to get experience/build a portfolio?

This guy must be the dumbest man on the planet if he leaves a 200K job with Microsoft to do photography

I knew several guys leaving good positions in a big companies for photography - though it was definitely not dance club one (National Geographic or fine art)

« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2014, 20:26 »
+1
Ah, dating one of the dancers....that explains it. So he's at the performances anyway, shooting his girlfriend. Still, cr@ppy of him to take a paying job from you. The other dancers might start to get annoyed when they see 90% of his shots are of one dancer in particular. ;)

baddabing!!

« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2014, 20:27 »
0


Or does he want to get out of Microsoft into photography and is trying to get experience/build a portfolio?

This guy must be the dumbest man on the planet if he leaves a 200K job with Microsoft to do photography

I knew several guys leaving good positions in a big companies for photography - though it was definitely not dance club one (National Geographic or fine art)

Are you related to uncle pete?

Goofy

« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2014, 20:30 »
+5
"baddabing!!"

LOL! Now he is using his 'extended' lens on the particular dancer. Just hope he has a hood on it  ... ;)



« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2014, 00:25 »
+1
"baddabing!!"

LOL! Now he is using his 'extended' lens on the particular dancer. Just hope he has a hood on it  ... ;)

I would strongly recommend an underwater housing! ;)

« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2014, 00:39 »
+1
We are in an unfortunate profession where there are no entries barriers, such as law, medicine or engineering. Anyone can buy a camera and be a photographer as opposed to buying a drill and doing dental work. Then again, I have done my own plumbing work and have learned to hire a pro after so nasty mistakes!

+1 although in Hong Kong you can buy second hand dentist equipment at the markets and start your own black market dentistry. owch. 

« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2014, 03:55 »
+1
"baddabing!!"

LOL! Now he is using his 'extended' lens on the particular dancer. Just hope he has a hood on it  ... ;)

How interesting. We never had a soap opera here at MG. Keep us informed, we want more chapters!

« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2014, 13:12 »
+2
What a fun post with so many amusing comments from everyone!  ;D

Sympathies on the loss of the business.  My 2c would be to keep the relationship open and bide your time.. do-it-for-free photographers can often have short life spans and you may be back in business when that happens.

Uncle Pete

« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2014, 19:30 »
0
Mark me slow I had to read it twice to get the joke. Actually I think Gene was here with that name before I morphed into an Uncle.

I predict Goofy will be back in business by the Ides of March. No tricks, no visits from my cousin Mario, no need to do anything but wait.

This is a passing interest and there's a personal motivation. Just like everyone else says, the novelty will wear off when working for nothing gets tedious.

(only Microstock professionals keep working for nothing...)



Or does he want to get out of Microsoft into photography and is trying to get experience/build a portfolio?

This guy must be the dumbest man on the planet if he leaves a 200K job with Microsoft to do photography

I knew several guys leaving good positions in a big companies for photography - though it was definitely not dance club one (National Geographic or fine art)

Are you related to uncle pete?

« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2014, 21:19 »
0
I have to say I'm one of those guys.  I have a great job as an engineer.  Although I love my day job, I love photography too.  I've spent much more on the equipment I own than I've earned back from my photos.

My hope when I started shooting stock was that eventually it would make me an income so I could retire earlier from the day job.  It hasn't worked out that way and I no longer think it will.

But, I have to say, I am cognizant of the fact that other people's livelihoods depend on photography.  Although I have done work for friends and relatives for free I don't believe I've ever taken a job away from anyone.  That's important to me but I suspect many people like me would not care.

When it comes to microstock I'd say we are all undercutting each other in the current climate.  Maybe I should feel guilty about settling for .36 commissions when all I'm doing is making a few hundred bucks to help buy a new lens or whatever.  On the other hand, there's plenty of other folks out there doing it.  I don't think what I personally do hurts anyone financially, practically speaking.

In the mean time, I have fun and I'm becoming a better photographer each year.  So I feel good about what I'm doing.

Maybe someday, if my skills improve enough, I'll create work that gets featured a gallery and sells for thousands of dollars.  Then maybe I'll make enough to quit the day job.  You can dream, right?

Goofy

« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2014, 22:01 »
0
"Maybe someday, if my skills improve enough, I'll create work that gets featured a gallery and sells for thousands of dollars.  Then maybe I'll make enough to quit the day job.  You can dream, right?

Than once you depend on your income from photography some rich guy that has a better camera (only does photography as a hobby) will shoot for free on all your assignments  ;)



Ron

« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2014, 05:28 »
+1
I have to say I'm one of those guys. I have a great job as an engineer.  Although I love my day job, I love photography too. I've spent much more on the equipment I own than I've earned back from my photos.

My hope when I started shooting stock was that eventually it would make me an income so I could retire earlier from the day job.  It hasn't worked out that way and I no longer think it will.

But, I have to say, I am cognizant of the fact that other people's livelihoods depend on photography.  Although I have done work for friends and relatives for free I don't believe I've ever taken a job away from anyone.  That's important to me but I suspect many people like me would not care.

When it comes to microstock I'd say we are all undercutting each other in the current climate.  Maybe I should feel guilty about settling for .36 commissions when all I'm doing is making a few hundred bucks to help buy a new lens or whatever.  On the other hand, there's plenty of other folks out there doing it.  I don't think what I personally do hurts anyone financially, practically speaking.

In the mean time, I have fun and I'm becoming a better photographer each year.  So I feel good about what I'm doing.

Maybe someday, if my skills improve enough, I'll create work that gets featured a gallery and sells for thousands of dollars.  Then maybe I'll make enough to quit the day job.  You can dream, right?
I am in the same boat. The parts in bold.

But, I do take assignments and if I take away a job from a pro photographer I am not going to worry or think about it. I have professional equipment, I know how to take a photo and I know how to process a photo and I issue invoices and have a business registration and pay taxes. So I am no different from a pro photographer.


 

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