Author Topic: GO Greece! (Read 83889 times)

Titus Livius · « **Reply #450 on:** July 10, 2015, 03:47 »

Quote from: Nikovsk on July 10, 2015, 02:09

All right wing parties are gaining ground because they are the only ones that listen to the people.

mass immigration translated in greedy employers replacing local employee with cheaper immigrants.

these guys previously stuck with the left wing all their life but now they're the ones enjoying the disastrous results of the leftist politics imposed in europe since the 80s and their only option now is the right wing, out of desperation in most of the cases.

but the right wing won't be able to change too much anytime soon as now it's too late and the issues are systemic and out of reach for our governments, only a closed-doors policy could benefit our local economies more than the actual open-doors globalization that is only benefiting our exporters while leaving nothing to anyone else.

look at how Russia is now doing great since the economic sanctions, their local industries have been boosted by local demand for locally grown foods and products and as a nation they're big enough to produce on their own pretty much anything including wine and a few exotic fruits, they're one of the few countries who are pretty much in condition of being totally sustainable and autarchic.

europe instead cannot afford this luxury, we'll be always dependent on foreign oil and gas and gold/iron/copper/whatever, our co-dependency to russia in particular is something we'll have to deal forever even if we switch more and more towards green energy.

as predicted by Adam Smith and many other economists in the past, our fate is to move where the jobs are, not viceversa, it's pointless to expect the factories to come back in our own sh-itty village, not gonna happen .. but now the jobs available in EU are not enough for everybody and at the same time due to the linguistic barrier you can't expect people to migrate so easily across the EU, that's one fine example for why some economic theories work fine in the USA but turn into a disaster when applied in europe.

etienjones · « **Reply #451 on:** July 10, 2015, 05:08 »

In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.

These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .

Titus Livius · « **Reply #452 on:** July 10, 2015, 05:36 »

Quote from: etienjones on July 10, 2015, 05:08

In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.

These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .

well, at least the oligarchy is finally showing it's real face.

i'm not too much scared by the TTIP actually, especially considering it will boost the euro economy in many ways to the detriment of many many mediocre american goods that are still on the market just because of protectionism ... they'll be the ones being flooded by german cars and euro foods, not viceversa.

on the other side i would also welcome with open arms an american style "hire and fire" policy in certain work environments where our guys are overpaid for doing Fk all, see the millions of civil servants and much more ..

and finally, europe is already unrecognizeable compared to the 70s and 80s, with my family i traveled abroad even when i was a kid and i can tell you things were veeeery different, i mean southern europe in particular were so backwards and cheap, eastern europe was totally third world, trains were slow and dirty, no cheap airlines, people were supposed to stick with their job all their life, not much social mobility, hard to work and study abroad, rampant corruption and political extremism, hard drugs everywhere with kids being told to avoid public parks for fear of touching syringes left by the bunch of drug addicts and freaks, all the cars were mostly produced locally and same for the food in supermarkets apart for imported liquors and a handful of other premium products, electronics was expensive anywhere, traveling was either for the rich or for the adventurous moving with camper vans or camping on the cheap, i could go on and on but moral of the story everything changed big time in the last 30-40 yrs in pretty much any field as far as i've witnessed.

now what's the next step, the TTIP ? i don't think it's such a big deal in general, it's impact will be mainly in the financial and banking sector, for anything else europe is already a joke so it can't get any worse than now .. i lived in the US and it's certainly not hell on earth ... there are pros and cons just like anywhere else ..

if you ask me, the main issue at stake is the dumbing down and brainwashing and indoctrination the average american is force-fed since birth.

the kind of crass ridiculous nationalism imposed in the US is also of the worst type but i can't see how sh-it like that could ever fly with europeans.

i mean it's 70 yrs they're trying to americanize us but it's been a total failure in many ways and rightfully so, the TTIP won't change the current cultural scenario, actually it could even benefit the americans ...

Difydave · « **Reply #453 on:** July 10, 2015, 05:41 »

Quote from: gostwyck on July 09, 2015, 18:57

Quote from: sharpshot on July 09, 2015, 17:30
Quote from: Nikovsk on July 09, 2015, 08:10
Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal

He wants to split up Europe but wanted to keep Scotland in the UK. Never quite understood how he can argue for one union so passionately while doing all he can to break up another one. I also don't like how he tolerated so many racists in his party and didn't keep his promise to quit the leadership if he wasn't elected as an MP. He is just like most politicians, a huge ego and no principles.

The union of the UK has been in existence for over 300 years and is democratically approved. In short ... it works. In contrast the UK public only ever voted to join the 'Common Market', a simple trade agreement and that was 40 years ago. Almost all of us would still vote in favour of that. What we don't want or need is the EU dictating 80% of the laws that govern us, unbridled immigration, excessive cost and little democracy or accountability. We're not interested in a federal Europe .. because it won't work ... as is proven by the issues with Greece amongst many others.

Farage did resign as leader immediately after the election (in which he won nearly 4M votes but secured only one seat, more votes in fact than the SNP who won 57 seats in parliament) but was persuaded to 'un-resign' three days later.

But hey ... I'm sure you know all this but feel free to distort it and leave out most of the pertinent facts to suit your own little agenda.

Anyway ... back on the topic of Greece.

Thanks for that. It sums up my feelings exactly. Common market yes, but the political BS they can keep. I await the results of the promised referendum here with interest, to see how they are going to screw us this time.
And don't get me started on the UKIP / SNP fiasco. How can you have two different voting systems in the same parliament? That result shows what a fiasco the whole thing is!
I'm waiting for the English to be given a referendum on whether WE want to stay in the British union! :-)

Titus Livius · « **Reply #454 on:** July 10, 2015, 05:44 »

Quote from: etienjones on July 10, 2015, 05:08

I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want.

of course, because since the last millennias the only "war" really going on is the Class War, and for obvious reasons the Rich class always wins and there's nothing we plebs can do about it, our only option is to adapt to the new scenario and see what sticks on the wall, or migrate to greener pastures which i also recommend but even in the middle of nowhere in a godforsaken third world country you'll find there's a hierarchy and a pyramid of power and a class-based society with rich and poors and eventually something in the middle, there's no way out from this, there's not a single place which is "classless"or "equal" or even just "honest" ...

the richest 1% hate us with passion, nothing is gonna change that, no matter if now the right wing starts winning elections all over europe or parties like Podemos in Spain start spreading like a virus across the EU .. they're just an exception to the rule, and they will sell out to the rich for a pittance sooner or later, actually i'm sure they're all a trojan horse already backed by the power elites just to create more confusion and play with us like cat and mouse as they always did ... we've nothing, they've everything, there's no game at all, it's like a plantation with the slaves, it's crazy so many people delude themselves that we can even "fight" a battle ..

Titus Livius · « **Reply #455 on:** July 10, 2015, 05:50 »

Quote from: Difydave on July 10, 2015, 05:41

And don't get me started on the UKIP

Farage is one of the most talented nationalists in europe, he's funny and goes straight to the point without the typical mumbo jumbo and demagogy of the other european conservatives.

i can't understand why the UKIP isn't winning in bigger terms but give them some more time and they can become UK's biggest party.

i mean, time is running out for leftists all around europe, their BS have been exposed so badly now that there's nothing they can hope to recover the loss, just a matter of time.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #456 on:** July 10, 2015, 06:38 »

Quote from: Titus Livius on July 10, 2015, 03:23

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 09, 2015, 17:28
Even more "shocking": food in Germany is more expensive than in USA. I wonder why? Hmmm....

because it's like comparing apples and oranges.

taxation is lower in the USA, the Unions have been almost killed in the 80s with Reaganomics, there's no Minimum Wage and even if there was they would find a way to recoup the costs in other ways, millions of unskilled workers who are paid a pittance while keeping wages below the poverty line, and since it's America they will also blamed and shamed for being enslaved in a low paying job .. in america it's never society being at fault, the blame is always on those at the endpoint of the whole system, there's a good reason they abolished slavery just to replace it with even cheaper salaries and ponzi schemes.

moreover, american workers have barely 2 weeks of paid holiday, most don't have even a basic health insurance, and you'll need to get at least a 50K $ loan to enroll in a decent university.

said that, yes food is cheaper and property is cheaper and oil/gas are also a lot cheaper, but at what price ?
there's always a price to pay, security and crime for instance, and how it can be healthy for a society when a 50K/year salary is barely enough to belong to the lower middle class ?

sure you'll save on food but the next day you'll get a 5000$ bill from your dentist or your doctor, all things that would cost 10x times less anywhere else including germany and while you're busy working your as-s off your wife could be having an affair with someone else and hit you with divorce and lifetime alimony (unheard of in europe, thanks god) ...

I never said life in US is better. Nothing is for free in this world and something gotta give.
This is why, for the first time, I even partially agree with you: some of the issues you mentioned are true, some are exagerated and some are false.

The only reason I mentioned US is to help you get out of the shock caused by the cheap German food.
One more time: strong competition is good for consumers. The government intervention in economy, limits or distorts the competition. This leads to a new equilibrium where prices are always higher. Or to an unstoppable instability and inflation spiral, if the government intervention is beyond the market tolerance.

Back to Greece. Read the new reform package signed by Tsipras.
These are the toughest reforms Greece has ever agreed with. It is even tougher that the one rejected by the referendum.
In a way, the whole thread is now pointless. All this nonsense about greedy capitalists and more is now obsolete. Tsipras did what he was supposed to do before creating all this circus.
It remains to be seen if Tsipras will keep his word and implement these reforms, once he gets his hand on the money.

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Titus Livius · « **Reply #457 on:** July 10, 2015, 07:12 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 06:38

This is why, the first time, I even partially agree with you: some of the issues you mentioned are true, some are exagerated and some are false.

The government intervention in economy, limits or distorts the competition.

Back to Greece. Read the new reform package signed by Tsipras.
These are the toughest reforms Greece has ever agreed with.

nothing has been signed yet, the latest news are about something big being discussed tomorrow or sunday but at this point it seems an agreement has been reached for 12 billions over 3 yrs and new draconian cuts in the public sector.

so, overall a decent deal for both parties, but ...

as for competition, it all ends up in a monopoly or a cartel sooner or later, of course while it lasts it's beneficial for consumers but it never lasts forever, this is obvious looking at pretty much any industry.

actually new technologies are the only disrupting factor that can change an industry overnight but once the technological gap is absorbed it's back to business as usual.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #458 on:** July 10, 2015, 07:27 »

Quote from: Titus Livius on July 10, 2015, 07:12

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 06:38
This is why, the first time, I even partially agree with you: some of the issues you mentioned are true, some are exagerated and some are false.

The government intervention in economy, limits or distorts the competition.

Back to Greece. Read the new reform package signed by Tsipras.
These are the toughest reforms Greece has ever agreed with.

nothing has been signed yet, the latest news are about something big being discussed tomorrow or sunday but at this point it seems an agreement has been reached for 12 billions over 3 yrs and new draconian cuts in the public sector.

so, overall a decent deal for both parties, but ...

as for competition, it all ends up in a monopoly or a cartel sooner or later, of course while it lasts it's beneficial for consumers but it never lasts forever, this is obvious looking at pretty much any industry.

actually new technologies are the only disrupting factor that can change an industry overnight but once the technological gap is absorbed it's back to business as usual.

A state controlled economy is full, or only made of those monopolies you mentioned. And there is no way to break them.
On the other hand, in a free economy, there will always be some creative entrepreneur with a better service or a new technology, ready to chip market shares from that big (bureaucratic and unflexible by now) company.

Back to Greece.
What is important is that Tsipras himself has capitulated.
It is very unlikely to see this package rejected.
This "Go Greece" euphoria will have to face the reality, one way or another.
Too bad Greeks still have to go through this ordeal, with banks closed, empty supermarkets, fear and uncertainty because of irresponsible politicians.

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Lizard · « **Reply #459 on:** July 10, 2015, 08:12 »

Quote from: etienjones on July 10, 2015, 05:08

In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.

These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .

Even if I fully agree with you with and we see same image of the plan of our future and even its bad like it is, there can be positive things that will rise from that for sure.

Firstly the awareness of people is rising at very high rate, regarding politicians dirty plans and corporate attempts to completely take the wheel of the world. Movements like Ubuntu are growing like mushroom after rain and 20 years ago only few rares even talked about the problem that will show up or already are.

The more successful the are in implementing things like TTIP more faster their ship will sunk because it benefits only a small minority of people while the other side will go down exponentially faster and the agony of loosing middle class and turning them into poor people will be way shorter and people will be forced to change their life styles and to turn in more sustainable direction of partially or fully growing their own food, getting back to lost habits of exchanging favors instead of paying for them and so on...

Due to their insane claims about climate with goal of rising the prices of energetic people will be forced turn to alternatives that are totally unused in their capacity today or even vast majority of people don't even know they exist.

I totally believe that Leonardo Da Vinci was right and that the world will start seeing good times when opposite trends of migration starts happening, from big cities towards rural areas because in cities people are totally dependable on the system they live under.

Nikovsk · « **Reply #460 on:** July 10, 2015, 08:19 »

Quote from: ferdinand on July 09, 2015, 08:22

Quote from: Nikovsk on July 09, 2015, 08:10
Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal

... great speech... but - even more fascinating is Tsiprases expression - without emotion - charming man of steel...

Tsipras caved in. He doesn't have what it takes, therefore his expression.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #461 on:** July 10, 2015, 10:46 »

Quote from: Lizard on July 10, 2015, 08:12

Quote from: etienjones on July 10, 2015, 05:08
In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.

These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .

Even if I fully agree with you with and we see same image of the plan of our future and even its bad like it is, there can be positive things that will rise from that for sure.

Firstly the awareness of people is rising at very high rate, regarding politicians dirty plans and corporate attempts to completely take the wheel of the world. Movements like Ubuntu are growing like mushroom after rain and 20 years ago only few rares even talked about the problem that will show up or already are.

The more successful the are in implementing things like TTIP more faster their ship will sunk because it benefits only a small minority of people while the other side will go down exponentially faster and the agony of loosing middle class and turning them into poor people will be way shorter and people will be forced to change their life styles and to turn in more sustainable direction of partially or fully growing their own food, getting back to lost habits of exchanging favors instead of paying for them and so on...

Due to their insane claims about climate with goal of rising the prices of energetic people will be forced turn to alternatives that are totally unused in their capacity today or even vast majority of people don't even know they exist.

I totally believe that Leonardo Da Vinci was right and that the world will start seeing good times when opposite trends of migration starts happening, from big cities towards rural areas because in cities people are totally dependable on the system they live under.

On one hand you consider yourself a dreamer (like John Lennon):

Quote

Im fist for globalization, I see no difference between any man whatever language he speaks or whatever paper they made him carry in his pocket, respect them all equally couldn't care less for countries and borders

On the other hand, when an agreement is about to be made in that direction, meant to overcome artificial borders and open up the trade to more competition, you are against it.

Make up your mind, my friend! You can't have one without the other.

Competition means progress for the society, even if some must pay the price for being inflexible in fast moving world. Don't let yourself influenced by those doom and gloom, end-of-the-world scenarios from cheap sci-fi movies.

Closed borders and protectionism mean stagnation or decay.

Lizard · « **Reply #462 on:** July 10, 2015, 11:22 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 10:46

Quote from: Lizard on July 10, 2015, 08:12
Quote from: etienjones on July 10, 2015, 05:08
In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.

These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .

Even if I fully agree with you with and we see same image of the plan of our future and even its bad like it is, there can be positive things that will rise from that for sure.

Firstly the awareness of people is rising at very high rate, regarding politicians dirty plans and corporate attempts to completely take the wheel of the world. Movements like Ubuntu are growing like mushroom after rain and 20 years ago only few rares even talked about the problem that will show up or already are.

The more successful the are in implementing things like TTIP more faster their ship will sunk because it benefits only a small minority of people while the other side will go down exponentially faster and the agony of loosing middle class and turning them into poor people will be way shorter and people will be forced to change their life styles and to turn in more sustainable direction of partially or fully growing their own food, getting back to lost habits of exchanging favors instead of paying for them and so on...

Due to their insane claims about climate with goal of rising the prices of energetic people will be forced turn to alternatives that are totally unused in their capacity today or even vast majority of people don't even know they exist.

I totally believe that Leonardo Da Vinci was right and that the world will start seeing good times when opposite trends of migration starts happening, from big cities towards rural areas because in cities people are totally dependable on the system they live under.

On one hand you consider yourself a dreamer (like John Lennon):

Quote
Im fist for globalization, I see no difference between any man whatever language he speaks or whatever paper they made him carry in his pocket, respect them all equally couldn't care less for countries and borders

On the other hand, when an agreement is about to be made in that direction, meant to overcome artificial borders and open up the trade to more competition, you are against it.

Make up your mind, my friend! You can't have one without the other.

Competition means progress for the society, even if some must pay the price for being inflexible in fast moving world. Don't let yourself influenced by those doom and gloom, end-of-the-world scenarios from cheap sci-fi movies.

Closed borders and protectionism mean stagnation or decay.

Once again, you will never understand what Im saying in that state of mind because your inner translator is set on different level.

You are speaking in favor of open trade and free economy...yet you are defending the system that encouraging totally opposite values behind the mask...

For example...strong countries economies entered the union in the early stage to get the best starting positions and a place to set the rules whic are NOT equal for all.

Politicians of newest EU members were corrupted and force to sign certain terms during accession negotiations that are degrading their country positions in the union and favorite the early members.

There are thousands of exporting and producing limits on certain goods for certain countries involved that the open market is all but not FREE and people are forced to stop producing things they produced for decades because the market is owned by old union members who never had to obey such terms to enter the union anyway.

You want examples...

Well the best one is that are killing small fisherman's by insane laws that they have to pay same fixed fee no matter how much fish they produce which are too high for their business and openly financing them to quit their business, while inviting huge companies fleets which are destroying seas and producing huge amount of food while paying that exact fee that goes for small individual family business.

That is not a free market my friend , that's fixed market to favor corporations of early union members and export limits are set to protect established economies so they can firstly destroy and then buy any new competition for pennies end enlarge their market on those new territories. Corporation are invading those new markets without any rules while domestic businesses are held to spread them self on new markets with exporting and production limits.

Limits and borders are limits and borders no matter if they happen on paper or at actual border and limiting any competition on producing or exporting with negotiation contracts signed by corrupted politicians are undemocratic tools that define FIXED economy hidden in term of free market.

Free market would be the one with no limits for anyone so that demand,price and quality of the product play major role on "who will survive" and not setting the rules on the paper that favor some and limit someone else based on the country that he lives in.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #463 on:** July 10, 2015, 12:05 »

Quote from: Lizard on July 10, 2015, 11:22

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 10:46
Quote from: Lizard on July 10, 2015, 08:12
Quote from: etienjones on July 10, 2015, 05:08
In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.

These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .

Even if I fully agree with you with and we see same image of the plan of our future and even its bad like it is, there can be positive things that will rise from that for sure.

Firstly the awareness of people is rising at very high rate, regarding politicians dirty plans and corporate attempts to completely take the wheel of the world. Movements like Ubuntu are growing like mushroom after rain and 20 years ago only few rares even talked about the problem that will show up or already are.

The more successful the are in implementing things like TTIP more faster their ship will sunk because it benefits only a small minority of people while the other side will go down exponentially faster and the agony of loosing middle class and turning them into poor people will be way shorter and people will be forced to change their life styles and to turn in more sustainable direction of partially or fully growing their own food, getting back to lost habits of exchanging favors instead of paying for them and so on...

Due to their insane claims about climate with goal of rising the prices of energetic people will be forced turn to alternatives that are totally unused in their capacity today or even vast majority of people don't even know they exist.

I totally believe that Leonardo Da Vinci was right and that the world will start seeing good times when opposite trends of migration starts happening, from big cities towards rural areas because in cities people are totally dependable on the system they live under.

On one hand you consider yourself a dreamer (like John Lennon):

Quote
Im fist for globalization, I see no difference between any man whatever language he speaks or whatever paper they made him carry in his pocket, respect them all equally couldn't care less for countries and borders

On the other hand, when an agreement is about to be made in that direction, meant to overcome artificial borders and open up the trade to more competition, you are against it.

Make up your mind, my friend! You can't have one without the other.

Competition means progress for the society, even if some must pay the price for being inflexible in fast moving world. Don't let yourself influenced by those doom and gloom, end-of-the-world scenarios from cheap sci-fi movies.

Closed borders and protectionism mean stagnation or decay.

Once again, you will never understand what Im saying in that state of mind because your inner translator is set on different level.

You are speaking in favor of open trade and free economy...yet you are defending the system that encouraging totally opposite values behind the mask...

No, you got it wrong.
I never defended the current system, since a lot more can be done to move it towards a free market economy, indeed.

I have always stated that the "solution" praised by the "Go Greece" cheerleaders is the worst. Instead of taking corrective actions to move towards that truly free economy, it goes backwards, re-inventing wheels that never worked.

And it took all this circus for Tsipras to realize it.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

Lizard · « **Reply #464 on:** July 10, 2015, 12:17 »

Then we agree on basic...that's first good step

I don't believe in responsible politicians at first place , if there were honest and responsible they would have never make it to the voting list of their party at the first place and not to mention higher levels of politics on which corruption plays major role. The elections are won by whom has more money and that's a scientifically proven , honest man has same chances as calf in slaughterhouse because firstly no corporate money will stand to back him up and secondly those who own media will discredit him big time.

I believe the system that you and me can agree on being honest can only be built from scratch again and that it should be done by people spontaneously instead of using politics which doesn't represent interest of people nor ever have.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #465 on:** July 10, 2015, 12:35 »

Quote from: Lizard on July 10, 2015, 12:17

Then we agree on basic...that's first good step

I don't believe in responsible politicians at first place , if there were honest and responsible they would have never make it to the voting list of their party at the first place and not to mention higher levels of politics on which corruption plays major role. The elections are won by whom has more money and that's a scientifically proven , honest man has same chances as calf in slaughterhouse because firstly no corporate money will stand to back him up and secondly those who own media will discredit him big time.

I believe the system that you and me can agree on being honest can only be built from scratch again and that it should be done by people spontaneously instead of using politics which doesn't represent interest of people nor ever have.

The difference between you and me is that I'm rather optimistic while you are not, even if you call yourself a dreamer.
The world of politics is changing fast. The old media empires, while still powerful, have less and less influence in competition with the new media.

Open border structures, like internet, are good for society.
Open border structures, like free trade are good for society.
Open border structures, like an economy with minimal government intervention are good for society.

This is why, I'm optimistic that, we will see more and more a change in our politicians. And we all play a decisive role in this change, as long as we don't fall for the sirens call.
This can only lead to the better world you are dreaming of.

The fact that Tsipras flip-flopped is a perfect example.

Titus Livius · « **Reply #466 on:** July 10, 2015, 14:21 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 07:27

A state controlled economy is full, or only made of those monopolies you mentioned. And there is no way to break them.
On the other hand, in a free economy, there will always be some creative entrepreneur with a better service or a new technology, ready to chip market shares from that big (bureaucratic and unflexible by now) company.

China is a mixed economy and is doing very well, the problem is corruption and mismanagement, not the whole idea of state-owned enterprises.

pushing the Free economy to the limit you reach the point where even water is sold by private companies, which has been tried disastrously in california already.

moreover, the market leaders always end up creating a price cartel so all the benefits of the free market cease to exist in the long run.

competition is healthy but can't last too long due to the bigger players doing M&A and enlarging their market share little by little.

ideally, private enterprise should be limited to industries and services that are not mission critical for the well being of the population .. nobody is complaining the state is not producing cars or fashion items, but banks in particular should be only run and owned by the state along with water, gas, electricity and low cost public housing.

if housing is now untolerable in europe's bigger cities is exactly because the govs stopped building council homes for the poors and the greed of the real estate market knows no bounds ... nobody needs this kind of robbing capitalism we're witnessing now not to mention it's spreading like a virus in any possible niche eroding our buying power, first it's real estate and next it will be healthcare and schools just like in the US.

Titus Livius · « **Reply #467 on:** July 10, 2015, 14:30 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 10:46

Closed borders and protectionism mean stagnation or decay.

but then explain me why protectionism is working very well in the US and why foreign-unfriendly and openly racists countries like Korea or Japan are doing very well.

as for the VAT why it's 20-23% in the EU but only 8% in Japan or Switzerland ?

so funny to point out many of these economic dogmas we here over and over have often no ground in reality including in the richest and most capitalist countries.

Titus Livius · « **Reply #468 on:** July 10, 2015, 14:37 »

Quote from: Lizard on July 10, 2015, 11:22

Free market would be

every possible economic scenario including first and foremost the so called Free Market is doomed to end up into a total monopoly of the richest families owning the whole economy and banking system and by proxy having power toward the politics and the military.

communism, capitalism, hybrids, it's just a matter of time and that's why they all fail following a typical "boom/bust cycle" over time.

failure is usually caused by wars but in fact wars can only happen when the state is no longer able to defend its borders ... chain effect ... rooted in the unsustainability of the economic model itself !

Titus Livius · « **Reply #469 on:** July 10, 2015, 14:51 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 12:35

The old media empires, while still powerful, have less and less influence in competition with the new media.

Open border structures, like internet, are good for society.
Open border structures, like free trade are good for society.
Open border structures, like an economy with minimal government intervention are good for society.

This is why, I'm optimistic that, we will see more and more a change in our politicians.

totally utopia.

sure, the medium and the ways information and products are being sold and produced are changing very fast but the result is exactly the same as before and de facto we're now living in a police state.

propaganda is working fine no matter if now it's using the internet instead of TV or newspapers and books.
actually new anti-dissent laws have been made all across the West with the excuse of terrorism or anti-government activity etc, plenty of web sites get banned every day so that now their only place to hide is the so called "deep web" which is a joke since the whole internet traffic is monitored anyway.

free trade is a nice word that doesn't hold water in the real world, ironically this is even more true for the US.

minimal government intervention always translates in double or triple costs when run by private enterprises, see how much you're going to pay in the US for healthcare or education compared to europe o japan ...

you might be optimistic but just because you're still too young and/or naive.

said that, if someone has real skills he will make a good living no matter where he's born, i've seen great things being done even in the poorest and most illiterate countries.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #470 on:** July 10, 2015, 14:57 »

Quote from: Titus Livius on July 10, 2015, 14:21

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 07:27
A state controlled economy is full, or only made of those monopolies you mentioned. And there is no way to break them.
On the other hand, in a free economy, there will always be some creative entrepreneur with a better service or a new technology, ready to chip market shares from that big (bureaucratic and unflexible by now) company.

China is a mixed economy and is doing very well, the problem is corruption and mismanagement, not the whole idea of state-owned enterprises.

pushing the Free economy to the limit you reach the point where even water is sold by private companies, which has been tried disastrously in california already.

moreover, the market leaders always end up creating a price cartel so all the benefits of the free market cease to exist in the long run.

competition is healthy but can't last too long due to the bigger players doing M&A and enlarging their market share little by little.

ideally, private enterprise should be limited to industries and services that are not mission critical for the well being of the population .. nobody is complaining the state is not producing cars or fashion items, but banks in particular should be only run and owned by the state along with water, gas, electricity and low cost public housing.

if housing is now untolerable in europe's bigger cities is exactly because the govs stopped building council homes for the poors and the greed of the real estate market knows no bounds ... nobody needs this kind of robbing capitalism we're witnessing now not to mention it's spreading like a virus in any possible niche eroding our buying power, first it's real estate and next it will be healthcare and schools just like in the US.

The water is a problem in California, exactly because it is subsidized or subject to price control. Californian farmers grow tropical crops in the desert, because the water is so cheap. And this is creating the scarcity, exactly like subsidezed bread will lead to bread scarcity and black markets.

About house prices: rent control kills developers incentive to build new houses. Too many government imposed zoning restrictions makes difficult to build new houses. On the other hand rent control is not applicable to luxury homes, therefore developers will only invest in expensive new houses. This is the reason why in rent controlled cities like New York, etc housing costs are extremely high.

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Titus Livius · « **Reply #471 on:** July 10, 2015, 14:58 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 12:05

I have always stated that the "solution" praised by the "Go Greece" cheerleaders is the worst. Instead of taking corrective actions to move towards that truly free economy, it goes backwards, re-inventing wheels that never worked.

but again you can't turn greece overnight into a seaside version of germany.
the sistemic problems affecting greece go back to 3000 yrs ago, it's nothing new and there's no fix for that.

sure many things can be improved but not the overall result.
in plus all the best and brightest have already left the country for greener pastures as they're not stupid and they know the score ...

i'm certainly a "go greece" cheerleader but c'mon let us enjoy this small pyrrhic victory ... greece is f'ked anyway but at least they had the balls to smack the bankers for a while and the eurocrats are finally showing their true face for all to see.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #472 on:** July 10, 2015, 15:16 »

Quote from: Titus Livius on July 10, 2015, 14:58

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 12:05
I have always stated that the "solution" praised by the "Go Greece" cheerleaders is the worst. Instead of taking corrective actions to move towards that truly free economy, it goes backwards, re-inventing wheels that never worked.

but again you can't turn greece overnight into a seaside version of germany.
the sistemic problems affecting greece go back to 3000 yrs ago, it's nothing new and there's no fix for that.

sure many things can be improved but not the overall result.
in plus all the best and brightest have already left the country for greener pastures as they're not stupid and they know the score ...

i'm certainly a "go greece" cheerleader but c'mon let us enjoy this small pyrrhic victory ... greece is f'ked anyway but at least they had the balls to smack the bankers for a while and the eurocrats are finally showing their true face for all to see.

And this is in line with what you consider utopia. The very fact that the whole world is able to debate the matter (this forum included) makes also possible to see those true colors. Both of those so called eurocrats, as well as the colors of those communist populist leftist utopic parties.
The public exposure makes them more and more aware that we care about their actions.

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Titus Livius · « **Reply #473 on:** July 10, 2015, 15:17 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 14:57

About house prices: rent control kills developers incentive to build new houses. Too many government imposed zoning restrictions makes difficult to build new houses. On the other hand rent control is not applicable to luxury homes, therefore developers will only invest in expensive new houses. This is the reason why in rent controlled cities like New York, etc housing costs are extremely high.

a roof on your head is your most important primary need along with water and food but now it seems for the government even howing a pot to pi-ss in is a luxury and you'll be eslaved into 20-30 yrs loans to buy one.

now, wasn't capitalism supposed to give everyone some tangible benefit ?
wasn't the invible hand of the free market supposed to actually improve our lives ?

i see nothing wrong in developers selling luxury homes but our governments totally abdicated from their role of guaranteeing social justice and basic needs.

it's funny we're here commenting on the unsustainability of greece when in fact the entire western world cannot sustain itself any longer and people stopped making kids as they can't even afford a house let alone having a family on their shoulders.

Titus Livius · « **Reply #474 on:** July 10, 2015, 15:23 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 15:16

Both of those so called eurocrats, as well as the colors of those communist populist leftist utopic parties.
The public exposure makes them more and more aware that we care about their actions.

awareness is the first step but there's no guarantee it will be followed by any practical action.

most of these people see the world in black and white and have no way to break the chains that keep them locked into modern slavery, they've just no way out and no exit strategy.

only the greeks migrating abroad will save themselves.

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