Quote from: CatTheCat on July 01, 2015, 14:09

...But all of this is EU fault mainly. For years they were all smiling, saying "it is ok" "everything is alright". They waited for the last minute to admit that there was a huge problem with the countries debts, with the help of and protecting some major banks and other financial institutions.

Not just the EU, look at the debt in other countries like the US and Japan.  They have much bigger debts than Greece but have got away with it so far, probably because they have their own currency.

Detroit uses the US$ and this didn't stop them to go bankrupt, Greece style. Porto Rico is now in a similar situation. Some US states are also in a rather dire situation,  because of poor governance, begging for federal aid.
If Drachma can be a magical solution for Greece's structural problems, maybe a "Detroit Dollar" can be a solution for Detroit.   I wonder why Detroit didn't think about it? Hmmm...

Drachma will not end Greece's structural problems, but, instead, will give Greeks the illusion of being paid. The inflation will be rampant and this will make the Greeks poorer every day. Poorer than under the strict euro-rules.
What needs to be changed now, when the euro is the measurement unit, must be changed even if a new currency is invented. There is no magical way out.
Perpetuum mobile doesn't exist. Energy cannot be created out of nothing. Similarly, in economy, wealth cannot be created with paper, even if the paper is called Drachma.

A strong currency is like an economical Litmus test: it shows economical mistakes and structural problems. It forces responsible governments to make good investments, stop over-spending and take corrective actions.

wow!
�1,102,893EUR
raised by 64,355 people in 3 days

https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html

Wow cool, hope this takes off!

All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places?  So it must make some difference?

Yes, it was much much cheaper than today!

All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places?  So it must make some difference?

But how are greeks going to buy goods from europe with drachmas? We would have to work all summer with people coming for cheap holidays just to buy in return a new fridge, tv, computer and video camera!

How will someone repay a loan he took in euros to invest in a small apartments to rent tourism company when he has to repay in drachmas? Impossible.

Wrong.
Your friend, Titus mentioned Putin first, then the russian customs union, NATO and the ruble in the same sentence. Then something about the Americans helping Greece to stay outside the soviet influence.

Hahahahaha !

you must be american ...

Quote from: sharpshot on July 02, 2015, 03:16

All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places?  So it must make some difference?

But how are greeks going to buy goods from europe with drachmas? We would have to work all summer with people coming for cheap holidays just to buy in return a new fridge, tv, computer and video camera!

How will someone repay a loan he took in euros to invest in a small apartments to rent tourism company when he has to repay in drachmas? Impossible.

The fridge, tv, computer and video camera probably all come from China, they seem to do OK without being tied to the Euro.

Quote

Hahahahaha !

you must be american ...

Ha, ha, ha, ha!

Wrong again! Maybe I'm an open minded russian, you never know!

unlikely, at best an eastern european who moved in the States or UK.

 

Please I beg everyone interested to listen to this:

http://www.onthemedia.org/story/on-the-media-2015-07-03/

Fascinating insight into the way the media has spun the crisis and the actual facts. Released today.

Please I beg everyone interested to listen to this:

http://www.onthemedia.org/story/on-the-media-2015-07-03/

Fascinating insight into the way the media has spun the crisis and the actual facts. Released today.

Without having listened to it, is it not a fact that Greece needed 230 BILLION to save their butt after cooking their books?

The current Greek government has managed to unite all the other 18 eurozone countries against it, I doubt they have ever been so collectively pissed off together.

All these insults towards europe and germany, all the talk of describing all of europe as vultures and vampires, do they really believe the people of europe don�t follow twitter or the news? that we can�t see how they hate us?

Don�t like europe, don�t ask other european taxpayers for their hard earned money.

why on earth is it "undemocratic" if people in europe don�t want to hand out more loans if they don�t see progress, especially going after the rich greeks and all the middle class that took their money out and sent it abroad?

But again, if all their politicians would lead by example, march to the banks and put in the cash money they have been hoarding in their mattress, the greek banks wouldn�t need to beg the EU.

You can�t "vote" yourself to our money and attacking the people you want money from isn�t really a useful strategy anywhere. Imagine applying for a job by hanging up posters around the city how much you despise the company you are applying too and that their boss is a monster.

I have heard for years and years, that all the eu money "never helped the people - we never got anything, nothing - it always just went to the banks". Well, now the banks no longer get loans, maybe slowly the connection will settle in. That "saving the banks" they despise so much, kept the country running and allowed everyone to live their lives.

Now that the time has run out, it will take weeks to start a new negotiation. And any new offer will have to be agreed on by all 18 parliaments, which might take months and will lead to heavy debates in every single country.

But of course if we discuss how to send our tax money and vote on it, we are accused as "undemocratic".

And inspite of it all, here there already are work groups for humantiarian aid, especially for medication to be sent to Greece from Germany. I fully expect if they actually are sent over, that the helpers will have the goods ripped out of their hands and afterwards they get insulted and shouted at. Or will anyone bother to say "Thank you"??

I am just 1/4 greek and don�t speak the language, but I am really fed up with the populism and the lies. And like many times before, I will be part of the extended family network sending money, when it becomes necessary.

It will lead to even more people leaving to work abroad, but every time they go back, they are so disappointed that there is no improvement. All the energy put into complaining loudly, could be put into getting things done.

Instead there is all this hot air talk of how much europe owes greece and how without greece we are all nothing.

Irrespective of what people vote for, I think Europe has many countries with very poor people. I hope some of the media spotlight gets focussed back on them. Greece is not the only country going through difficult times.

Greece is the only country in Europe approaching 30% unemployment and 60% youth unemployment though. That is unheard of outside of a war zone. That is considerably higher than the US at the worst point of the great depression.

I am just trying to point out the epic scale of what is going on in Greece. Whatever you think about the causes, the fact is that millions of Greek people who are not to blame are suffering the consequences. Most people were just working their jobs (working in fact longer average hours than the average German) living their lives. Not cooking books, not lying, not taking loans, just average people scrapping a living.

ETA, was typing at the same time, my reply was to the post two posts above. Reply to post above; no not what I'm accusing you of.

Whatever you think about the causes, the fact is that millions of Greek people who are not to blame are suffering the consequences. Most people were just working their jobs (working in fact longer average hours than the average German)

Those millions of Greeks are responsible for voting irresponsible politicians in power. Bad managers.
Carrying a bucket of water, on your head, for 2km, is hard work, indeed. And it takes a lot of those working hours, you see on the stats. But it is totally ineficient. Not that Greeks don't have running water, you get the point.

If two men, on the same boat, row in opposite directions, both work very hard, indeed, but their boat goes nowhere. They need a good manager to make their hard work efficient.

The government and their populist agenda (buying votes with borrowed money) is responsible for this lack of productivity and chaos the country is in.


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So the rest of europe will have to continue to wait until the greek people decide what they want and if they want to stay with us or walk away, or get closer to russia or china etc...nobody can decide that for them.

Meawhile, it looks like some northern Greeks decided to get closer to Bulgaria. Hotels and restaurants began accepting payments in Bulgarian lev (pegged to the euro since quite some time already):

https://euobserver.com/beyond-brussels/129438