Greece lied about their deficit. It had to be less than 3.5% to join the Euro, in reality it was 13.6%. Dont mix things up.

A Greece default benefits no one.  They pumped billions into Greece and probably never get it back.

If you think the EU is out to destroy peoples lives, you have bleak outlook on life my friend.

The Eu and especially the euro made a huge difference to our business, we both exported and imported much more easily. The whole euro zone became our market and we started working with many new suppliers from other countries that we didn�t consider before, because we didn�t want to always be dependent on the various exchange rates.

I don�t see any other country other than Greece interested in leaving the euro or attacking all of Europe so aggressively.

But Tsirpas has been lying to his own people in just a horrible way. He knew that if he had asked a referendum about euro or drachme the Greeks would have voted for the euro.

He had enough time to pass new laws or measure to clean up the country, tax the rich, cut spending on the military. He didn�t do a single thing. Instead everybody just got a permanent media show of him and V.

He is so happy and relaxed, because the meeting in Brussels and the threat of Grexit don�t worry him at all. They must have been planning to leave for a long time, probably thought he can squeeze some last minute pity money out of europe if the show he orchestrates is good enough and of course no intention to pay anything back to anyone. He doesn�t care about how the other countries manage or what sacrificies they make to pay towards Greece.

No sense of responsibility towards the Greek people whatsoever, just clinging to power by making people desperate.

The show will continue until Sunday, then he can keep blaming Europe for all that follows, while his party dig their roots even deeper into the state. The state will soon take over key business, probably starting with the media companies that are not publishing what Syriza wants them to hear.

In the end they will get voted out again, unless he can prevent new elections due to the "national crisis" and maybe hand himself some shiny new "special rights".

I am not worried about Russia getting involved or this becoming a dangerous threat to anyone else.

This will be an entirely local Greek issue and until they decide to really change their country into a proper state with functioning tax collection, a functioning legal system, encouraging young people to start a business and opening up internally to allow those who work hard to flourish, nothing will improve.

In 2010 Germany couldn�t collect 2.3% of their taxes, in Greece it was 89%. That number is being floated on many message boards and I don�t see any contradictions.

A country cannot run on other people�s money forever. They need to show solidarity with their own country and if they don�t do it, nobody else will.

Quote from: Semmick Photo on July 08, 2015, 02:51

Its very easy to focus on the negatives. Ignoring the benefits it brought us doesnt mean they are not there.

I have experienced first hand the benefits of the EU, and many of my friends too. For me it made my life so much easier.

for me too.
i lived and worked in a few EU countries and it was quite easy to move around and to get my papers in order, just a few decades ago it would have been a lot harder if not impossible.

said that, all these things could be done without turning europe into a banking union run by an unelected elite of eurocrats, the kind of democracy we have now is light years behind real democracies like Switzerland for instance.

and most importantly, why there's still no sign of a unified european military force ? a EU Army or whatever resembling a proper fighting force big enough to represent the defence of a 500 million people union ?

as it is now we must be scared even from russia which is a country with just 150 million people, this is ridiculous and we're always seen as minor power and as america's dog, nobody is ever scared of our foreign politics, even lybia or sirya .. the russian could take over the whole continent in a few weeks and many of us would even welcome them with open arms, that would finally settle the matter for the next 1000 yrs hahaha .... a unified eurasia from portugal to vladivostock, one currency, no borders.

Sorry, but there should be no armies at all.

Do we really need to spend money so we can flex some muscles? I thought we were supposed to focus on peace rather than war. I despise the Russians for what they do, so lets not be like them.

We should be like Costa Rica if anything.

I despise the fascism for what they do, so lets not be like them.

Like I said before, Europe (EU) has a lot of good things to offer and they made things better, easier and cheaper. There are also some negatives, of course. But lets not pretend that everything was better before the EU. It wasnt.

I'm not saying that there wasn't benefits in terms of circulation of people and goods, but those same things could have been accomplished with a looser union. In fact the use on the term UNION says it all. Why couldn't it be an Alliance? No, it has to be a union because it's the very nature of the countries independence that's being put in question.

The EU has got to the point where even the use of wooden spoons in the kitchen's have been regulated! The type of olive oil or vinegar containers in the restaurants and many, many more minuscule and irrelevant things!

Including things that mess with the cuisine of countries. For example, the traditional portuguese dried cod is no longer allowed to be dried in the salt and sun, it has to use chemicals to dehydrate it! HOORAY for Bayer, or whatever company will produce them , and for cancer too! The period some meat must rest is no longer allowed and must be used soon after the kill.

We're one step away for the EU to regulate the color of underwear the people must wear in each day of the week!

We must also differentiate what benefits are coming exactly from the EU, and not simply because of the advance of times that would happen no matter what.

Sorry, but there should be no armies at all.

Do we really need to spend money so we can flex some muscles? I thought we were supposed to focus on peace rather than war. I despise the Russians for what they do, so lets not be like them.

We should be like Costa Rica if anything.

impossible.
a country cannot be kept together without a national army and this is even more true for europe.

without an army and a police force a government has no power at all, it would be just a bunch of guys talking about politics.

moreover, the EU is a major manufacturer of military equipment so it's an industry that can only grow bigger and bigger.

Quote from: Semmick Photo on July 08, 2015, 03:06

They pumped billions into Greece and probably never get it back.

If you think the EU is out to destroy peoples lives, you have bleak outlook on life my friend.

they just agreed to print a few billions of paper money, we're not talking about tangible goods like gold or whatever.

That "paper money" is being backed by people all over Europe including all the countries who are much poorer than Greece.

It is real money from real people. Countries like Finland have invested 10% of their national budget into Greece. they did it believing that Greece was serious about being part of Europe and of course would want to pay it back.

In many ways the Europeans were naive, they believed because so much of European history revolves around Greece, that modern day Greece is a normal European country. Unfortunately it isn�t.

Lets not forget, all countries using the Euro agreed to the terms to join. No one was forced into joining. Its still a democracy.

Well, very few countries perform referendums about European decisions. I certainly have never been asked!

And you underestimate the power of coercion the bigger countries have over the smaller ones. Regarding the EU and Euro we're still too close to it to get the whole picture. The future will reveal what has really happened.

I can pin-point three examples in the history where a "bully" country lead to the situation Portugal is today. Three moments that directly turned Portugal from a world power to an insignificant country and the current situation we live.

18th century - At the start of the industrialization Portugal was threatened by the UK that if we didn't stop the development of the industry they would stop the import of portuguese Port Wine and other products. Portugal had to obey since that would provoke a catastrophe in the Portuguese economy has UK was the largest trade partner. At the time it wasn't easy to find new partners as it is today because of travel and communications.

19th century - Portugal is by now a weakened nation and UK threatened Portugal (1890) to give up the territories between Angola and Mozambique in Africa so that the UK could connect by railway the colony of South Africa with the ones in the north. This lead to a very deep crisis of the monarchy and a prelude to a revolution.

20th century - After the Republican revolution that threw Portugal into chaos in 1910, again UK threatened Portugal that we should participate in WWI or they would invade the African Portuguese colonies. Portugal obeyed, and turned a situation very much like we live today into a nightmare due to the costs of the war effort. This chaos and crisis lead to the 1926 fascist dictatorship which turned Portugal very much like a 3rd world country.

So, stating that countries are free in their decisions is in most cases far from the truth. Portugal has been several times menaced during this EU experiment, including to suffer penalties for doing the exact same things France and Germany did.

I'm not excusing all the errors of the Portuguese, but smaller countries are always bullied by powerful countries and rarelly have total freedom of choice.

error - quote instead of modify

Quote from: Semmick Photo on July 08, 2015, 02:29

Like I said before, Europe (EU) has a lot of good things to offer and they made things better, easier and cheaper. There are also some negatives, of course. But lets not pretend that everything was better before the EU. It wasnt.

I'm not saying that there wasn't benefits in terms of circulation of people and goods, but those same things could have been accomplished with a looser union. In fact the use on the term UNION says it all. Why couldn't it be an Alliance? No, it has to be a union because it's the very nature of the countries independence that's being put in question.

The EU has got to the point where even the use of wooden spoons in the kitchen's have been regulated! The type of olive oil or vinegar containers in the restaurants and many, many more minuscule and irrelevant things!

Including things that mess with the cuisine of countries. For example, the traditional portuguese dried cod is no longer allowed to be dried in the salt and sun, it has to use chemicals to dehydrate it! HOORAY for Bayer, or whatever company will produce them , and for cancer too! The period some meat must rest is no longer allowed and must be used soon after the kill.

We're one step away for the EU to regulate the color of underwear the people must wear in each day of the week!

We must also differentiate what benefits are coming exactly from the EU, and not simply because of the advance of times that would happen no matter what.

Sharpshot is right, there s a lot of stuff attributed to the EU when in fact its just a myth, a misunderstanding or down right incorrect information

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32013R1068

As I understand it, using salt and sun is still allowed, they only asked for permission to use different kinds of salt or chemicals. These chemical had to be regulated so that it doesnt cause any harm to health.

This is how the EU gets a bad reputation.

The EU cuts down freedom on all sides.

The good side is that you can have a "ordered" life without any security issues, hunger and existencial problems apart from the malfunctioning healthcare in many EU countries. However, it is not a free country/zone anymore, not even sure about its democratic status, and its inhabitants are largely influenced by a media which is not independent anymore. It is just a matter of time until it falls apart.

As opposed to all the other countries on the Globe where people can live in perfect freedom, their media is not biased and health care is perfect....

I love Europe. I love living here, this is a great place and Europeans have a very strong community bond.

But if you live in a community, you need rules.

-----------

I am watching the discussions in the European parliament. Tsirpas gave a really bad performance. The other Greek delegates weren�t better. They come across as arrogant, no sense of solidarity with the rest of Europe, no thank you to all the small countries that have sent them money, they don�t seem to care that nobody trusts them. They even decorated all their tables with little oxi signs. Why are they surprised if Europe say no in response?

Syriza stopped all reforms, keeps talking about the terrorism of having to live within your means and keeps asking for billions of more money. "One day there will be reforms"...after they receive billions more...no comittment to cut spending on the military, taxing the church or the rich. Just more hot air.

No, it�s over. They are not ready to do what is necessary and expect all the smaller and poorer countries to pay for them.

Even the head of a large Russian bank said today they won�t help Greece with money.

When they have the Drachme back, they can play with their own currency any way they like.

They even decorated all their tables with little oxi signs.

Did they do that?? For real, what are these guys on. Dont bite the hand that feeds you comes to mind.

Like I said, Costa Rica did it and they seem to thrive.

the case of tiny countries is a different scenario, it would be ineffective for them to invest in a military defence force, due to their size pretty much any neighbouring country will easily wipe them out even using antiquated armaments.

in europe we have similar cases, Andorra, Vatican, Liechtenstein, San Marino, etc .. also Iceland has basically just a police force, and greenland is also so isolated they don't need any defence force as far as i know (Denmark will take care, eventually).