Author Topic: I hope that oil will cost $ 100 per liter soon! (Read 38437 times)

borg · « **Reply #200 on:** March 16, 2012, 16:50 »

That is true!

Probably what we know even about WW2 is not quite true...

Do you know what is main reason why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor?

How come that some smaller country can attack bigger force than itself?

Have you heard for pacific embargo?

There is many facts from history which become actual again when they won't able to affect to the current politics...

velocicarpo · « **Reply #201 on:** March 16, 2012, 18:42 »

Quote from: Perry on March 15, 2012, 17:35

Quote from: VB inc on March 15, 2012, 17:21
im more worried about the harm to to planet and future of humanity. not necessarily what i can get by breathing bad air. nuclear waste lasts way too long for any good. im thinking long term

Do you believe in global warming?

Global warming is not a question of "believe".

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #202 on:** March 17, 2012, 05:16 »

Quote from: borg on March 16, 2012, 16:50

That is true!

Probably what we know even about WW2 is not quite true...

Do you know what is main reason why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor?

How come that some smaller country can attack bigger force than itself?

Have you heard for pacific embargo?

There is many facts from history which become actual again when they won't able to affect to the current politics...

If they are remembered.

But my main point was that if Hitler had won the great majority of his citizens would probably have been very happy with the way things had turned out. People have a tremendous capacity for adapting to and being happy under whatever circumstances they live under - as well as rationalising away or ignoring any inconvenient details that don't fit the desired narrative.

The comments about global warming are an excellent example. People like me think that those who dismiss it are dangerous idiots who are happy to sacrifice their children's future for their own convenience. They, on the other hand, think I am a gullible fool whose swallowing the lies of a corrupt, money-grubbing "green" industry (which some think may be part of a Commie plot to destroy capitalism, freedom and America). Given that we all have exactly the same facts available, how are we able to arrive at opposite conclusions? Clearly, it is because our understanding of reality can be turned on its head by indoctrination, education and psychological manipulation, regardless of what the facts tell us.

Microbius · « **Reply #203 on:** March 17, 2012, 05:44 »

Quote from: BaldricksTrousers on March 17, 2012, 05:16

But my main point was that if Hitler had won......

That sentence is another example of what you are talking about. We have been sold the N-A-Z-I-S basically being an expression of the will of one super human-ly evil man who controlled the whole thing from the center like a comic book super villain. It's all about the evil of a totalitarianism regime forcing itself on people.

The reality is that I can go into any pub and find a dozen jumped up little Hitlers who would love to be in a position to exterminate whole swathes of the population.

For me the lesson of Nazi Germany is almost the opposite, it is about the evil of naked majoritism. The evil of the mob imposing its will on those weaker than itself. True democracy if you will. There was an excellent episode of World at War where this was emphasized. The Gestapo was tiny, but once people realized they had free reign to inform and spy on neighbors they disliked and they were able to give their prejudices free expression the center didn't have to run things. The people did it all for them.

We are very lucky in Western Europe and the US to live in Democratic Republics rather than Athenian style true democracies, where laws are designed to protect rights of minorities, not just pander to the will of the mob.

borg · « **Reply #204 on:** March 17, 2012, 06:23 »

Nazzzzis were convinced that doing a good thing (like soviets, or today guess who), which means that through history the greatest evil is is committed in the name of goodness ... Also with adding of any of uncritical religions, we have rutted the path to collective suffering...

This is called the "illusion of freedom," regardless of the social system ...

Digression that I can see in your comments and conflicting attitudes is just impact of an old propaganda and some kind of public education in your lives in different countries ...
I lived and grew up on the border between two main political systems of 20st century, and what is worst at all, we know advantages and disadvantages of these two ideological camps...
Do you know the definition of communism, without googling? What was main "danger" which come from communism for your "freedom" in western countries...
And opposite, same question for "free capitalism"...

Many Hollywood movies (as a part of propaganda) were frightening Western world with communism (remember Rambo 3 and his Taliban allies

). So its likely that people who were watching those movies still have an aversion but they don't know how to explain that...
You saw positive excitement and reactions of Westerners who participated on "Stock Photo Expo" (or named similar) in Moscow, after they returned ...
Perhaps they expected something completely different, from mentality to standard...

RacePhoto · « **Reply #205 on:** March 18, 2012, 00:55 »

Quote from: borg on March 17, 2012, 06:23

Nazzzzis were convinced that doing a good thing (like soviets, or today guess who), which means that through history the greatest evil is is committed in the name of goodness ... Also with adding of any of uncritical religions, we have rutted the path to collective suffering...

This is called the "illusion of freedom," regardless of the social system ...

Digression that I can see in your comments and conflicting attitudes is just impact of an old propaganda and some kind of public education in your lives in different countries ...
I lived and grew up on the border between two main political systems of 20st century, and what is worst at all, we know advantages and disadvantages of these two ideological camps...
Do you know the definition of communism, without googling? What was main "danger" which come from communism for your "freedom" in western countries...
And opposite, same question for "free capitalism"...

Yes lets talk about history, non-people, ones that disappeared and things like that under the wonderful communists.

"And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed—if all records told the same tale—then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.'"

You don't need to win a war to master propaganda and revisionist history, it can be a way of life in some places. Changing history can be an ongoing work in progress.

The fate of tens of thousands of people only became known after the 1950s De-Stalinization. Then there are still the forced disappearances, without the right to correspondence.

I'm still sad that the US got into WW II when apparently we weren't needed at all. Could have saved many lives and huge amounts money just by staying at home. Yup, looks like the Russians had the entire situation under control and the allies didn't need the USA in their battle.

lagereek · « **Reply #206 on:** March 18, 2012, 02:07 »

Quote from: BaldricksTrousers on March 16, 2012, 05:57

Quote from: lagereek on March 08, 2012, 17:31

Fran, what youre in actual fact is saying, thanks to the red army, etc, we could have won this war without the US, right? and then what, Hitler replaced by Stalin! not a very promissing prospect, is it, to replace one evil with another.

Maybe not a nice prospect, but he could very well be right (especially if you pick up the narrative in 1944). I seem to recall reading years ago that one of the prime objectives of the invasion was to hold the line for the West against Russian influence.

I have no idea if Britain would have survived up to '44 without lease-lend (contrary to a previous comment, I believe we finally paid that off about 10 years ago ... contrast that with Germany which was allowed to default on its financial obligations at the time of reunification, when its wartime debts were forgiven, so that now Merkel can lecture Greece on financial responsibility).

No, Britain nor Russia would have survived without the US intervention in WW2. These were the only two countries left, in Europe that is. Sure the red army did a tremendous job, Stalingrad, etc.

However, there is little doubt, Hitler, was his own worst enemy, his health was in a decline, suffering from syphillis, etc, the man was going mad and thereby made mad decisions. Take Staligrad as an example. What would have happend if fresh soldiers, clothing, weapons, food, etc, had been delivered to the German army? food for thaought, isnt it?

Same on the other side, the dessert wars, one of the reasons Monty clobbered Romel, had a lot to do with new armoured tanks being supplied by the Americans, light and fast tanks that didnt get stuck in the sand, in the end it turned out a battle of equipment.

The V1, the V2, imagine the outcome of the war if the Germans finally had developed the V3 ? and they were very, very close in doing so! most true experts on the WW2, agree that would have been the end of Europe, Russia and the US. Thats how close it was.

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #207 on:** March 18, 2012, 04:34 »

Quote from: Microbius on March 17, 2012, 05:44

For me the lesson of Nazi Germany is almost the opposite, it is about the evil of naked majoritism. The evil of the mob imposing its will on those weaker than itself. True democracy if you will. There was an excellent episode of World at War where this was emphasized. The Gestapo was tiny, but once people realized they had free reign to inform and spy on neighbors they disliked and they were able to give their prejudices free expression the center didn't have to run things. The people did it all for them.

We are very lucky in Western Europe and the US to live in Democratic Republics rather than Athenian style true democracies, where laws are designed to protect rights of minorities, not just pander to the will of the mob.

That's right and people should remember it when they hear their governments talking about spreading democracy all over the world. The Arab Spring has seen the Western Powers allying themselves with the Muslim Brotherhood against the evil dictators, just as they were allied with bin Laden's mujahideen in Afghanistan against the Russians. The "good guys" who have just won the elections in Egypt hands down are the same group who machine-gunned tourists in southern Egypt 15 years ago, before realising that this was not a productive approach to challenging Mubarak. In Libya, the semi-liberal Muslims from Benghazi (who chanted Allahu Akbar before during and after every firefight against Gaddafi) are now facing off against the hardline Muslims from the mountains, whom Qatar armed heavily during the rebellion with the eager support of France, Britain and the US. In Tunisia, according to Robert Fisk, a village not far from the capital proclaimed itself an autonomous muslim state and put on trial a shopkeeper who spread perversion by renting out mainstream Hollywood movies.

Borg's absolutely right, that everything bad that happens is done by people who believe they are doing good. God is always on your side, whether you've got "Gott mit Uns" on your buckle or wear a Star of David. To complicate things further, definitions of good and evil depend on the personal interests of the group you represent.

While discussing Russian disappearances and other evils of Communism, RacePhoto might like to bring in an American Indian to debate the wisdom and benevolence of US domestic policies in the 19th century, or a negro to discuss segregation in the US before, during and after WWII - with particular reference to the failure of the authorities to control racist gangs in the South (and the trade in those fascinating early 1900s postcards of the bodies of lynched Negroes). We all have blinkered views of our own national histories.

Microbius · « **Reply #208 on:** March 18, 2012, 11:41 »

Very wise words. I find it terrifying that the lessons learnt from the second world war seem to be all the wrong ones.

Instead of thinking these were ordinary people doing all these terrible things, we have been sold the narrative that it was the state doing it and all the ordinary people were against it. Maybe sold is the wrong word, as we have loved burying our heads in the sand and accepting the easy explanation. The result is that instead of guarding against all these impulses in ourselves we constantly look to our governments for fault. The next N-a-z-i/Stalinist regime won't start because laws have gradually gotten more and more strict. It will come when a government is overthrown by the mob who are making these claims against it. Tyrannies almost always start from the hoi polloi, from the ground up, not from the top down. We should be stopping at every opportunity to ask ourselves what right we have to impose our opinions on others, instead we end up being even more tribal and pointing the finger. More of the mob mentality that led to the N-a-z-i atrocities. I guess human nature will win out no matter what.

borg · « **Reply #209 on:** March 18, 2012, 13:21 »

People, evil does not exist!
The concept of "true evil" is only a tool for homogenization of religious population in the history ... That is a way of controlling with good old fear ...
Evil as a fact can only be characterized as a negative action to the specific person or group ...
Before evil as a fact, often precedes a misleading or fallacy due to some misfortunes suffered in the past, despair, ignorance, or propaganda for hidden interests under the auspices of the struggle for freedom, what often leads people in wrong conclusion that they are doing some good thing...
As a concept, evil is a paradox!
Just ask yourself: what evil will do when succeed to conquer all goodness ...? Will become good, or will destroy itself...

In global, evil is just an interest on expense of others, as BaldricksTrousers said!
Everything is relative!
What is hunter for his family, and what is for his prey?

donding · « **Reply #210 on:** March 18, 2012, 23:14 »

If you want to listen to the truth and have an hour and a half to do it...this is what you should watch. A fellow journalist and photographer has the pictures and the death numbers are much higher than previously stated.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiCXb1Nhd1o&t=1s[/youtube]

Microbius · « **Reply #211 on:** March 19, 2012, 03:42 »

Quote from: borg on March 18, 2012, 13:21

People, evil does not exist!
The concept of "true evil" is only a tool for homogenization of religious population in the history ... That is a way of controlling with good old fear ...
Evil as a fact can only be characterized as a negative action to the specific person or group ...
Before evil as a fact, often precedes a misleading or fallacy due to some misfortunes suffered in the past, despair, ignorance, or propaganda for hidden interests under the auspices of the struggle for freedom, what often leads people in wrong conclusion that they are doing some good thing...
As a concept, evil is a paradox!
Just ask yourself: what evil will do when succeed to conquer all goodness ...? Will become good, or will destroy itself...

In global, evil is just an interest on expense of others, as BaldricksTrousers said!
Everything is relative!
What is hunter for his family, and what is for his prey?

Not sure why you were complaining so much about the bomb that killed those children in Iraq then. They were just "prey", not even that, just collateral damage. Nothing evil about killing children so don't worry about it (?)

borg · « **Reply #212 on:** March 19, 2012, 08:48 »

Quote from: Microbius on March 19, 2012, 03:42

Not sure why you were complaining so much about the bomb that killed those children in Iraq then. They were just "prey", not even that, just collateral damage. Nothing evil about killing children so don't worry about it (?)

Ha! You told everything what was my intention with this topic...

I am not talking here about "Evil West" or something like that, as some people had wanted to reverse my thoughts on this topic...
I just want to encourage gentleness, good criticism, knowledge and all of that what promotes goodness,everything opposite to misapprehension and insensitivity.

The story about evil is often just a base for a another bad reaction in the name of goodness...

Proof is in documentary film from my first post...
They asked Talibans what is main reason why they are fighting for...
Answer was: for freedom and goodness, against tyranny...

wut · « **Reply #213 on:** March 19, 2012, 19:25 »

The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting

Charles Bukowski

velocicarpo · « **Reply #214 on:** March 19, 2012, 19:58 »

Quote from: donding on March 18, 2012, 23:14

If you want to listen to the truth and have an hour and a half to do it...this is what you should watch. A fellow journalist and photographer has the pictures and the death numbers are much higher than previously stated.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiCXb1Nhd1o&t=1s[/youtube]

Thanks for the great link!

velocicarpo · « **Reply #215 on:** March 19, 2012, 19:59 »

Another good documentary giving a broader picture...


THE CRISIS OF CIVILIZATION : Full Movie

jbarber873 · « **Reply #216 on:** March 19, 2012, 22:26 »

Quote from: borg on March 17, 2012, 06:23

(remember Rambo 3 and his Taliban allies ).

Scholarly research! This explains a lot of your posts.

borg · « **Reply #217 on:** March 20, 2012, 04:50 »

Quote from: jbarber873 on March 19, 2012, 22:26

Quote from: borg on March 17, 2012, 06:23
(remember Rambo 3 and his Taliban allies ).

Scholarly research! This explains a lot of your posts.

What do you mean with this?

wut · « **Reply #218 on:** March 20, 2012, 04:57 »

Quote from: borg on March 20, 2012, 04:50

Quote from: jbarber873 on March 19, 2012, 22:26
Quote from: borg on March 17, 2012, 06:23
(remember Rambo 3 and his Taliban allies ).

Scholarly research! This explains a lot of your posts.

What do you mean with this?

I guess that he's laughing at your sources

borg · « **Reply #219 on:** March 20, 2012, 06:31 »

Quote from: wut on March 20, 2012, 04:57

Quote from: borg on March 20, 2012, 04:50
Quote from: jbarber873 on March 19, 2012, 22:26
Quote from: borg on March 17, 2012, 06:23
(remember Rambo 3 and his Taliban allies ).

Scholarly research! This explains a lot of your posts.

What do you mean with this?

I guess that he's laughing at your sources

So, as you can see in that post, I am also laughing at my source...
But if you look at the whole palette of movies, the situation regarding "film propaganda" isn't any more so humoristic ...
Rambo 3 is certainly something different than Italian documentary mentioned in my first post...
I am sure that movie was little part of propaganda in that time... Why today, there is no new movies about western alliance with the Taliban from that time?
This period of human history is no more interesting or what? We know that movies about ww2 are still making...

I recently watched some a bit older movie "Hostel" in Tarantino's production ... In which American tourists were killed in a brutal manner,because of greed for money of eastern European mafia...
The story is happening in Slovakia, after "the war" during 90-ties ...

..
In Slovakia, there was no war since WW2!
That is veeery peaceful country with much bigger security level than in many European or American countries...

That tells you how big is "competence" of great Hollywood directors and scenarists...
Or maybe this is part of the "travel guide" for touristic industry...

Perry · « **Reply #220 on:** March 20, 2012, 07:25 »

Quote from: RacePhoto on March 18, 2012, 00:55

I'm still sad that the US got into WW II when apparently we weren't needed at all. Could have saved many lives and huge amounts money just by staying at home. Yup, looks like the Russians had the entire situation under control and the allies didn't need the USA in their battle.

I'm sad they didn't get into WW II earlier. And yes, they saved many lives and huge amounts of money by staying at home so long. They just spent time picking the right side (US was very pro-n-a-z-i before the war) and then waited, waited and waited for the red army and brits and others to wear out the german army.

US help was significant, but not as big as they seem to teach in the schools in the US. If you want to compare "effort" measured in casualties here is a quick comparison: US Casualties 418,500 people, 0.32% of the population ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties ). Even in just the battle of Stalingrad died more russians (478,741 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad ).

US help was a death blow, but a much needed one, because n-a-z-i-s did't seem to be good at surrendering.

The problem with the current US politics is that they haven't had a real total war on their own territory in ages (I don't count the civil war here because it was their "internal problem"). US people don't generally have any clue how an invasion by a foreign nation feels (or a real threat of invasion), because they don't have any grandpas telling about it.

Already many countries are faced at the same direction and the history will repeat itself.

wut · « **Reply #221 on:** March 20, 2012, 08:15 »

Quote from: borg on March 20, 2012, 06:31

Quote from: wut on March 20, 2012, 04:57
Quote from: borg on March 20, 2012, 04:50
Quote from: jbarber873 on March 19, 2012, 22:26
Quote from: borg on March 17, 2012, 06:23
(remember Rambo 3 and his Taliban allies ).

Scholarly research! This explains a lot of your posts.

What do you mean with this?

I guess that he's laughing at your sources

So, as you can see in that post, I am also laughing at my source...
But if you look at the whole palette of movies, the situation regarding "film propaganda" isn't any more so humoristic ...
Rambo 3 is certainly something different than Italian documentary mentioned in my first post...
I am sure that movie was little part of propaganda in that time... Why today, there is no new movies about western alliance with the Taliban from that time?
This period of human history is no more interesting or what? We know that movies about ww2 are still making...

I recently watched some a bit older movie "Hostel" in Tarantino's production ... In which American tourists were killed in a brutal manner,because of greed for money of eastern European mafia...
The story is happening in Slovakia, after "the war" during 90-ties ... ..
In Slovakia, there was no war since WW2!
That is veeery peaceful country with much bigger security level than in many European or American countries...

That tells you how big is "competence" of great Hollywood directors and scenarists...
Or maybe this is part of the "travel guide" for touristic industry...

Yeah I watched that movie years ago, it's pathetic how they see the rest of the world, they (characters in the movie) bought the whole hotel, champagne and lobsters in abundance for a dollar. Yes, a dollar. And they weren't trying to be sarcastic, satiric or anything. They portrayed the whole country a lot worse than it was even behind the iron curtain. And OTOH their latest war movies almost make you want to enlist in the US Army, so much superlatives, heroism surrounding their soldiers

jbarber873 · « **Reply #222 on:** March 20, 2012, 21:39 »

Quote from: wut on March 20, 2012, 04:57

Quote from: borg on March 20, 2012, 04:50
Quote from: jbarber873 on March 19, 2012, 22:26
Quote from: borg on March 17, 2012, 06:23
(remember Rambo 3 and his Taliban allies ).

Scholarly research! This explains a lot of your posts.

What do you mean with this?

I guess that he's laughing at your sources

Bingo!

Graffoto · « **Reply #223 on:** March 20, 2012, 23:57 »

Quote from: wut on March 20, 2012, 08:15

Quote from: borg on March 20, 2012, 06:31
Quote from: wut on March 20, 2012, 04:57
Quote from: borg on March 20, 2012, 04:50
Quote from: jbarber873 on March 19, 2012, 22:26
Quote from: borg on March 17, 2012, 06:23
(remember Rambo 3 and his Taliban allies ).

Scholarly research! This explains a lot of your posts.

What do you mean with this?

I guess that he's laughing at your sources

So, as you can see in that post, I am also laughing at my source...
But if you look at the whole palette of movies, the situation regarding "film propaganda" isn't any more so humoristic ...
Rambo 3 is certainly something different than Italian documentary mentioned in my first post...
I am sure that movie was little part of propaganda in that time... Why today, there is no new movies about western alliance with the Taliban from that time?
This period of human history is no more interesting or what? We know that movies about ww2 are still making...

I recently watched some a bit older movie "Hostel" in Tarantino's production ... In which American tourists were killed in a brutal manner,because of greed for money of eastern European mafia...
The story is happening in Slovakia, after "the war" during 90-ties ... ..
In Slovakia, there was no war since WW2!
That is veeery peaceful country with much bigger security level than in many European or American countries...

That tells you how big is "competence" of great Hollywood directors and scenarists...
Or maybe this is part of the "travel guide" for touristic industry...

Yeah I watched that movie years ago, it's pathetic how they see the rest of the world, they (characters in the movie) bought the whole hotel, champagne and lobsters in abundance for a dollar. Yes, a dollar. And they weren't trying to be sarcastic, satiric or anything. They portrayed the whole country a lot worse than it was even behind the iron curtain. And OTOH their latest war movies almost make you want to enlist in the US Army, so much superlatives, heroism surrounding their soldiers

Its called the entertainment industry for a reason. Its purpose is to make money, not accurate historical documentaries.
Yes, Americans like to feel good about themselves and will pay money to watch films where the Americans are the good guys and always win.
Don't go around using movies made for entertainment purposes as true of how the film makers or the Americans see themselves. Take it for what it is. Entertainment.

borg · « **Reply #224 on:** March 21, 2012, 06:25 »

Maybe that is just entertainment for you, but someone like children or teenagers constantly receive "message in the bottle"...

During 90-ties in conflict time in ex. YU, you could see many young men with black tape around the head (maybe inspired by the "Rambo" movies) ...
So, that wasn't only for "American" purposes...
Today also, you can see another type of evolved movies, produced by Tom Hanks and Clint Eastwood, which show ugliest side of war, shocking with brutality, collective suffering, sacrifice of little men for someone else's goal, etc. This is definitely a shift on better, this shows new era of anti-war populations around the world...

P.S.
Here you can see results of "Rambo" films on young men... They go in foreign wars with expectation of events equal to 3D war movies, but...!
Battle for Haditha (2007)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0870211/

I just want to say that the movie industry is not as harmless as it seems...

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Author Topic: I hope that oil will cost $ 100 per liter soon! (Read 38437 times)

borg

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lagereek

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Microbius

borg

donding

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jbarber873

borg

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Perry

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Graffoto

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