Author Topic: If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make sound? (Read 1754 times)

stoker2014 · « **on:** September 22, 2024, 11:48 »

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" is a philosophical thought experiment that raises questions regarding observation and perception.
________

I don't know what different philosophers have come up with, but when I was recently walking through the forest and a huge birch tree was falling on me, I clearly heard the loud sound of it falling. It was thanks to this sound that I was able to accidentally escape from the area where the tree was falling. After which, behind me, I heard a loud dull sound of a fallen tree hitting the ground.
If I hadn't heard the sound of a falling tree, this tree would have fallen on me and I wouldn't be writing this post here.

Pacesetter · « **Reply #1 on:** September 22, 2024, 17:47 »

Good to hear you're safe from that potentially harmful incident.

When I read 'If a tree falls...' it reminds me of the 1988 song by Bruce Cockburn.

SuperPhoto · « **Reply #2 on:** September 22, 2024, 23:32 »

Now the REAL question people want to know the answer to is...

If a squirrel is eating a nut by a tree and no one is around to hear him eating it, did he really have a good meal? Or is he just nuts?

stoker2014 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 23, 2024, 02:59 »

I don’t know about squirrels, but the example with the tree really excited the minds of various philosophers and physicists.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 23, 2024, 03:04 »

Quote from: Pacesetter on September 22, 2024, 17:47

Good to hear you're safe from that potentially harmful incident.

When I read 'If a tree falls...' it reminds me of the 1988 song by Bruce Cockburn.

And he also used this question in his song.

As a participant in the experiment, I declare that when a tree falls, the sound is very loud and can be heard very well!
There is only one problem, it is not clear which tree is falling and where it will fall. You can run in the direction of the fall and then the tree will fall on your head. Be in the tree fall zone is equivalent to playing Russian roulette!

Shuttershock · « **Reply #5 on:** September 23, 2024, 05:06 »

If I fart next to someone, I always say I didn't hear anything.....

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2024, 09:39 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on September 22, 2024, 11:48

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" is a philosophical thought experiment that raises questions regarding observation and perception.
________

I don't know what different philosophers have come up with, but when I was recently walking through the forest and a huge birch tree was falling on me, I clearly heard the loud sound of it falling. It was thanks to this sound that I was able to accidentally escape from the area where the tree was falling. After which, behind me, I heard a loud dull sound of a fallen tree hitting the ground.
If I hadn't heard the sound of a falling tree, this tree would have fallen on me and I wouldn't be writing this post here.

If the tree falls and hits you, but doesn't kill you, there was a sound. If it kills you instantly, there's no sound.

(as in you don't hear the bullet that kills you, either)

The real answer: objects of sense exist only when they are perceived, which is more physical and physiology or by definition, than philosophy.

Yes, I'm writing this because I wasn't killed by a mudslide, which happened right after I had traversed the slope of a hill, (taking photos to document mudslides) minutes before.

But since you asked about philosophy, people who don't wear seat belts, are only here by chance and luck, the other people who didn't, are dead, so the later can't write on the forum. If you asked everyone who was lucky, the ones who gambled and lost, aren't available to balance the answer to the question.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2024, 14:47 »

Quote from: Uncle Pete on September 23, 2024, 09:39

If the tree falls and hits you, but doesn't kill you, there was a sound. If it kills you instantly, there's no sound. (as in you don't hear the bullet that kills you, either)

A falling tree cannot kill instantly. Before it can kill, it must fall on you, and this takes several seconds. I was not alone, and another person also heard the sound of a falling tree. If the tree had killed me, then the other person would have confirmed that there was a sound of a falling tree. We must also separate the two sounds. The first sound is the sound of a falling tree. The second sound is the sound of a tree falling to the ground. These are different sounds. In this case, two participants in the experiment claim to have heard two different sounds at different times.
As for bullets, they whistle, and there are many witnesses to this fact.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 23, 2024, 14:52 »

Quote from: Uncle Pete on September 23, 2024, 09:39

Yes, I'm writing this because I wasn't killed by a mudslide, which happened right after I had traversed the slope of a hill, (taking photos to document mudslides) minutes before.

But since you asked about philosophy, people who don't wear seat belts, are only here by chance and luck, the other people who didn't, are dead, so the later can't write on the forum. If you asked everyone who was lucky, the ones who gambled and lost, aren't available to balance the answer to the question.

I don't know if the mudslide makes a sound. Perhaps you, as a witness, know this.
As for seat belts in a car, it should be clarified that this car should also be equipped with airbags. Yes, I wear a seat belt, but my cars do not have airbags. So in the event of an accident, it makes little difference whether the seat belt is fastened or not.

zeljkok · « **Reply #9 on:** September 23, 2024, 17:41 »

Schrodinger's Cat

stoker2014 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 24, 2024, 05:29 »

Quote from: zeljkok on September 23, 2024, 17:41

Schrodinger's Cat

I am sure that the sound of a falling tree has nothing to do with all this science fiction. And in vain do philosophers and scientists cite a tree as an example.
As a witness, I claim that the sound of a falling tree exists!
And I will note that I did not observe this tree, I did not even see it until it fell and I initially thought that it was a large branch falling.

zeljkok · « **Reply #11 on:** September 24, 2024, 13:45 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on September 24, 2024, 05:29

I am sure that the sound of a falling tree has nothing to do with all this science fiction.

Schrodinger's Cat is not sci-fi. It is well known thought experiment named by physicist Erwin Schrödinger in 1935 in a discussion with Albert Einstein and one of cornerstones of quantum mechanics. It deals with measurement paradox which can loosely be linked with title of this thread.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 25, 2024, 02:20 »

Yes, that's why I created this topic.
And as I already wrote, I don't agree with scientists!

My practical experience against the scientific fantasies of scientists!

Cider Apple · « **Reply #13 on:** September 26, 2024, 16:53 »

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

You were around to hear it. I think the thought experiment is if nobody is around does it make a sound at all? Something we will probably never know. It sort of relates to us all living in a simulation. The simulation doesn't need to render things when it's not being observed like the sound of the tree. When our consciousness is witness then the simulation needs to function normally (if that makes sense).

SuperPhoto · « **Reply #14 on:** September 26, 2024, 21:18 »

Quote from: Cider Apple on September 26, 2024, 16:53

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

You were around to hear it. I think the thought experiment is if nobody is around does it make a sound at all? Something we will probably never know. It sort of relates to us all living in a simulation. The simulation doesn't need to render things when it's not being observed like the sound of the tree. When our consciousness is witness then the simulation needs to function normally (if that makes sense).

It's interesting - I've heard the simulation theory (I think with a tweet via elon musks account 3-4 years ago)... if it is/was a simulation - it is quite a simulation. I don't quite 'believe' it is (because there are a few inconsistencies that don't seem to be viable to be an actual simulation)... but - given how insane it was and how much insanity/people acted over the last 3-4 years, I realize perhaps I need to consider that as a possibility. Do you have more details on that you could send me (either here or via a PM). Thanks!

zeljkok · « **Reply #15 on:** September 27, 2024, 00:53 »

There is lots of discussion on topic of observation/measurement of various phenomena, not just casual (i.e. on Forum like this one), but between theoretical physicists.

Latest mind blowing thing is something called "quantum entanglement" - changes induced on one particle can be measured on second particle that can be arbitrary distance away. There are already theories how this will at some point be used for instant communication across light years, thus bypassing Einstein barrier where nothing can travel faster than speed of light. This concept has been used very effectively in "There Body Problem" Netflix series, in form of quantum entangled supercomputers called "sophons" (Sophons are of course pure sci-fi, but quantum entanglement is not - it is experimentally verified science fact).

stoker2014 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 27, 2024, 02:22 »

Quote from: Cider Apple on September 26, 2024, 16:53

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

You were around to hear it. I think the thought experiment is if nobody is around does it make a sound at all? Something we will probably never know. It sort of relates to us all living in a simulation. The simulation doesn't need to render things when it's not being observed like the sound of the tree. When our consciousness is witness then the simulation needs to function normally (if that makes sense).

Oh yeah! We all live in the matrix!
You probably believed everything that was shown to you in the movie The Matrix.

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #17 on:** September 27, 2024, 11:09 »

Quote from: Cider Apple on September 26, 2024, 16:53

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

You were around to hear it. I think the thought experiment is if nobody is around does it make a sound at all? Something we will probably never know. It sort of relates to us all living in a simulation. The simulation doesn't need to render things when it's not being observed like the sound of the tree. When our consciousness is witness then the simulation needs to function normally (if that makes sense).

The point of the original question, not the one here, is that sound is defined as a perception, the sensation perceived by the sense of hearing, so if no living things is present, there is no sound. If someone defines sound as waves of air motion, then there is. It's just a nice little logic puzzle.

Since I'm writing, it appears that @stoker2014 enjoys throwing out answers that are wrong and insisting he's right, because everyone else is wrong. This is not new, but I'm forced to try to give a reasonable scientific and rational answer once again.

You don't hear the bullet that kills you, is an old military saying. If you get shot, you don't hear the gun firing or the sonic crack of the bullet. (which except maybe a canon or musket, they do not whistle! what is that, something from a cartoon? Rocks falling don't usually whistle either.)

The speed of sound = 343 meters / second, the speed of a 7.62 NATO round = 641.3 m/s. The bullet will get to you nearly twice as fast as the sound. And I can tell you from personal experience, I have seen the hole appear, where a bullet hit, right above me, right before I heard the snap of the bullet going through the air. You don't hear the bullet that kills you. In movies, people do and duck. They also have something exploding and the hero dives to safety. Both are fantasy.

When Einstein said "God does not play with dice" he was referring to the theories of others that modern nuclear physics, theory, said the motion was random. In fact people like Bors and Heisenberg. Einstein didn't like the idea of random motion. He stuck with unified theory to the end, believing that there was a way to know how everything was related.

Quote from: zeljkok on September 27, 2024, 00:53

There is lots of discussion on topic of observation/measurement of various phenomena, not just casual (i.e. on Forum like this one), but between theoretical physicists.

Latest mind blowing thing is something called "quantum entanglement" - changes induced on one particle can be measured on second particle that can be arbitrary distance away. There are already theories how this will at some point be used for instant communication across light years, thus bypassing Einstein barrier where nothing can travel faster than speed of light. This concept has been used very effectively in "There Body Problem" Netflix series, in form of quantum entangled supercomputers called "sophons" (Sophons are of course pure sci-fi, but quantum entanglement is not - it is experimentally verified science fact).

So you are proposing that these reactions would travel faster than the speed of light, or maybe at the same speed. There would need to be measuring devices at both locations, that are synchronized to measure how fast the communication arrived. What about, the theory that, these would occur at the speed of light, not faster? LOL

Who's proposing that they would be faster, and why?

The speed of an electron is about 2,200 kilometers per second1. This is less than 1% of the speed of light

stoker2014 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 27, 2024, 11:40 »

Quote from: Uncle Pete on September 27, 2024, 11:09

The speed of sound = 343 meters / second, the speed of a 7.62 NATO round = 641.3 m/s. The bullet will get to you nearly twice as fast as the sound. And I can tell you from personal experience, I have seen the hole appear, where a bullet hit, right above me, right before I heard the snap of the bullet going through the air. You don't hear the bullet that kills you.

The speed of a bullet doesn't matter. Even if it's faster than the speed of sound, you'll still hear a bullet flying past your ear. The question isn't whether the bullet will hit you or not. The sound of a bullet flying past is audible.
Maybe different people will hear this sound at different times, even if they're standing next to it. Maybe it depends on the development of their reflexes and hearing aid.
I never wrote that you can hear the sound of a bullet and escape from it.

I think that when they shot Trump, he heard the sound of a bullet flying past and hid from other bullets in time.
I'm sure that if Trump becomes president of the United States, an investigation will be conducted into this assassination attempt and those who ordered it will be named. I won't spoil it any further. Everyone already knows who benefited from Trump's murder.

f8 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 27, 2024, 11:45 »

If a man says something in the forest and no woman is there to hear him, is he still wrong?

stoker2014 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 27, 2024, 12:34 »

Quote from: f8 on September 27, 2024, 11:45

If a man says something in the forest and no woman is there to hear him, is he still wrong?

From the point of view of female logic, yes, he is still wrong.

Cider Apple · « **Reply #21 on:** September 27, 2024, 19:13 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on September 27, 2024, 02:22

Quote from: Cider Apple on September 26, 2024, 16:53
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

You were around to hear it. I think the thought experiment is if nobody is around does it make a sound at all? Something we will probably never know. It sort of relates to us all living in a simulation. The simulation doesn't need to render things when it's not being observed like the sound of the tree. When our consciousness is witness then the simulation needs to function normally (if that makes sense).
Oh yeah! We all live in the matrix!
You probably believed everything that was shown to you in the movie The Matrix.

Not at all. Although it was a mind-blowing movie for its time.

The simulation Hypothesis has intrigued me as there are so many similarities to many religious beliefs (i won't get into it now but think reincarnation, Divine Creation, Heaven/Hell).
Many scientists are also starting to explore the possibilities that we're not in base reality. As Uncle Pete wrote Einstein believed that the laws of our universe should be simple. If it's too complex then it's wrong. He believed nature in its complexity is simple (E = mc²). That's why he hated Quantum Mechanics, it's too weird and complex. Take the Planck length, the smallest size in the universe is very similar to a pixel. Or the double-slit experiment, it demonstrates how particles change when observed. Scientists have proven that light that has traveled over thousands (maybe millions) of light years changed once we first observed it. Somehow that light had to be re-rolled back just because we looked at it. Like it wasn't rendered and suddenly needed to be. It's crazy. Too much to write on here but if you do a little research I'm sure you'd find it interesting.

I'm not saying we're in some crazy futuristic simulation, but I do find the thought interesting.

What happens if we find proof that we are in a simulation? What would our simulators do? Terminate the program? Just let the program continue on? Move our consciousness into another simulation. Run the program again? Ask us if we want to join them in their reality which might not even be the base reality but another simulation.

Just a fun thought experiment I find myself daydreaming. It kinda makes sense on how everything is so sped up and fast too. Like technology and just life in general. Anyway I'm waffling now.

zeljkok · « **Reply #22 on:** September 27, 2024, 22:57 »

Quote from: Uncle Pete on September 27, 2024, 11:09

So you are proposing that these reactions would travel faster than the speed of light, or maybe at the same speed. There would need to be measuring devices at both locations, that are synchronized to measure how fast the communication arrived. What about, the theory that, these would occur at the speed of light, not faster? LOL Who's proposing that they would be faster, and why?

No, you missed the point. Change is instant. Not speed of this or that. INSTANT. And arbitrary distance. So you could have Unit A on Earth, and Unit B on Alpha Centauri or somewhere in Andromeda Galaxy for that matter. As soon you trigger change on Unit A, it is felt / measured on Unit B - as long as A and B are "entangled" This is mind boggling really. They have proven it by measuring electric charge on entangled electrons. Right now it works only with quantum particles; how to engineer, or even is it possible, macro entangled objects is something completely else. But lots of things we take for granted -from MRI / Cat scans to Microwave ovens started with similar experiments on quantum level.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 28, 2024, 05:13 »

Quote from: Cider Apple on September 27, 2024, 19:13

....
but think reincarnation, Divine Creation, Heaven/Hell.

When you find out, please let me know where I can sign up for all this? Where can I get in line?

cascoly · « **Reply #24 on:** September 28, 2024, 14:49 »

Quote from: zeljkok on September 27, 2024, 22:57

Quote from: Uncle Pete on September 27, 2024, 11:09

So you are proposing that these reactions would travel faster than the speed of light, or maybe at the same speed. There would need to be measuring devices at both locations, that are synchronized to measure how fast the communication arrived. What about, the theory that, these would occur at the speed of light, not faster? LOL Who's proposing that they would be faster, and why?

No, you missed the point. Change is instant. Not speed of this or that. INSTANT. And arbitrary distance. So you could have Unit A on Earth, and Unit B on Alpha Centauri or somewhere in Andromeda Galaxy for that matter. As soon you trigger change on Unit A, it is felt / measured on Unit B - as long as A and B are "entangled" This is mind boggling really. They have proven it by measuring electric charge on entangled electrons. Right now it works only with quantum particles; how to engineer, or even is it possible, macro entangled objects is something completely else. But lots of things we take for granted -from MRI / Cat scans to Microwave ovens started with similar experiments on quantum level.

yes, theoretical physics hasnt been this exciting since the advent of quantum theory 100 years ago. New Scientist seems to print new research every week on these topics.

sciFi makes these concepts digestible, but at the cost of accuracy, esp'ly for those who aren't up to date on the actual science - the sophron is a prime example - extrapolating quantum entanglement to the ultra-macro covering a distance of hundreds of light years

still 3 Body is a great read, along with Gibson's Agency / Peripheral novels (& TV series) and also Blindsight and the Tchaikovsky 'Children of ...' series about spacefaring civilizations of spiders & octopus

one of best books i've read recently is 'When We Cease to Understand the World ' -a novel about those involved in the birth of quantum theory

MicrostockGroup Sponsors

Author Topic: If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make sound? (Read 1754 times)

stoker2014

Pacesetter

SuperPhoto

stoker2014

stoker2014

Shuttershock

Uncle Pete

stoker2014

stoker2014

zeljkok

stoker2014

zeljkok

stoker2014

Cider Apple

SuperPhoto

zeljkok

stoker2014

Uncle Pete

stoker2014

f8

stoker2014

Cider Apple

zeljkok

stoker2014

cascoly

Related Topics

Sponsors

Microstock Poll Results

Sponsors