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Author Topic: Kayak for Canoe making the change?  (Read 4462 times)

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RacePhoto

« on: January 12, 2010, 17:43 »
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Almost on topic?  :)

I had two canoes. Sold the 16' aluminum one, have a durable 14' Coleman (ram-x plastic). But I see more people with Kayaks and I'm thinking easier to transport, I could carry it easier for access to the spots on the river, marsh, small lakes, where I want to shoot.

I'm inexperienced with kayaks. OK, no experience, not a clue! But a former sailor, canoe person and not a complete water novice.

How stable are they, I need an appropriate design, so that I don't have to worry about getting the camera wet. I see they have dry chambers, I don't know if I can pack a 70-200 or 100-400 or 400mm f/5.6 in there with the camera? Tripod I don't care, it can ride outside.

All I'm going to be doing is paddling some inland lakes, fairly calm rivers and no rapids or anything "interesting". At least not until I get comfortable, then it's off to Lake Michigan.

But I wondered if someone can give me some general space and weight limits or ideas what I want for a camera kayak? I think it would be much more functional than the 14' canoe. Think of something built for utility not rapids, white water or speed.

Suggestions?


WarrenPrice

« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2010, 17:52 »
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Race,
Since you are talking canoes, I will pick your brain.  My wife and I went on a short canoe trip duing our vacation in Maine and LOVED it.  We're looking for something that will be stable (for beginners).  I will use it for wildlife photography ... mostly on quiet streams and the lake where we live.  Is 14 ft long enough for two beginners and a large backpack filled with camera equipment?  Would 15 feet be a better choice?

Have fun in the kayak.  They sure turn over easy.   :P

RacePhoto

« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 18:27 »
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Race,
Since you are talking canoes, I will pick your brain.  My wife and I went on a short canoe trip duing our vacation in Maine and LOVED it.  We're looking for something that will be stable (for beginners).  I will use it for wildlife photography ... mostly on quiet streams and the lake where we live.  Is 14 ft long enough for two beginners and a large backpack filled with camera equipment?  Would 15 feet be a better choice?

Have fun in the kayak.  They sure turn over easy.   :P

Depends on who is in the canoe. Some people are more tippy than others. The 14' was because I wanted something that would be easy to lift onto my car, portage and suitable for two adults fishing, a cooler and leg room. I've never tipped over in a canoe, except for practice dumping, and getting it back upright and crawling back in. Good thing to try a few times, just in case it happens out in the lake. I've turned sailboats turtle too, but not by accident.

I've had guys I know come back wet, paddling down the calm channel off the dock.

Canoes aren't really that tippy, they tend to lean and the bowing of the side actually stabilizes then at an angle. It's the people who throw their weight to compensate or make hard shifts, that rebound and dump them. If you have a poorly designed canoe, it has high seats. You can sit on the floor and lower your center of gravity. We had a sailing canoe, with a lateen sail and one outrigger, rudder pinned on the stern. Picture that? It worked.

I've never owned a fiberglass canoe, they seem to float too high in the water and will crack if you hit a rock. Aluminium is nice for lakes, not so good with rocks on a river. I did own a canvas kayak which got punctured by a twig. Purely a nice calm water toy boat. It was more of a one person canoe, but was called a kayak.

I suspect the same principle applies to a Kayak which you do sit down inside, so it's got a center of gravity below the water line. Should be harder to tip over than a canoe in theory?

I think there must be some designs better for paddling in lakes or rivers and carrying equipment. Others better for rapids and white water, others better for ocean going or big chop. Since there are a few people here who are avid kayakers, I figure they could make it easier for me, and save hours of research.

« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 19:09 »
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Well, there are different designs of kayaks and canoes. Here are some examples from my paddling fleet. Keep in mind that I am more oriented towards long distance racing and expedition rather than shooting nature and wildlife from water.

Mature paddler and racing kayak" border="0
Mature paddler in a narrow racing kayak" border="0
Paddling workout in a sea kayak" border="0
Mature paddler in racing outrigger canoe" border="0
Winter canoe - break for hot tea" border="0

You can find more examples in my blog Paddling with a Camera. It is mostly oriented to compact waterproof cameras like Pentax Optio Wxx series, but I usually carry also a tripod and my DSLR with one zoom lens even in my racing boats.

I guess you are thinking about some sort of recreational kayak (short, wide, stable and slow) which is fine for spending time on water and shooting, but if you want to go faster or do some touring you may consider a sea kayak.

Perhaps, this list of links from my blog will be helpful (it is quite old and may be outdated): Kayak Photography Links - Tips and Hints for Paddling Photographers.

eyeCatchLight

  • Imagination is more important than knowledge.
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2010, 08:03 »
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Hi Race,

I am like you more a canoer than a kayaker. i have tried kayak twice or so and the ones i had (rental kayaks) were stable. we were on lakes, we didn't dip, in the worst case you might just not get forward because of bad technique or running in a circle. lol.... but there was no problem of stability. but i don't know which canoe it was, probably a very much beginner one as it was a rental canoe in a national park in Canada.

sorry for the non-technical answer, i just thought maybe you like to hear it.  ::)

Simone

XPTO

« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 10:40 »
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Hi RacePhoto,

If you're paddling only in lakes and rivers I highly recommend a kayak like the one in the following link. If not from this manufacturer (one of the best manufacturers in the world, built in Portugal and supplier of many Olympic teams), at least one with the same hull shape and dimensions and characteristics.

http://www.mar-kayaks.pt/en/kayaks/details/strozzy/



It's one of the most stable kayaks you'll find. In fact, it's a rescue kayak, and you can get into it alone even if you're swimming in the water with a bit of practice (and I recommend the life-lines also). Just climb from the back.

But this one can also face rapids to some degree has it is very maneuverable. In the club where I was a trainer we called it the "Ballerina" because before you get practice you can make a 180 turn with a single paddle. Anyway you can add a rudder as an option which makes direction an easy thing at maneuverability cost , and you can even pull it up so you get the extra maneuverability again.

It has a large sealed compartment behind that I think it's more than enough capable to take a 70-200 on a camera and some more cargo, and can take a lot of weight. I've paddled many times with (light) people laying in the back and it didn't sink.

It's not the fastest kayak around but it's pretty decent and doesn't crack easily if you bump into a rock or trunk due to the hull shape even if built in fiberglass. Fiberglass is not as resistant as plastic but it's lighter and easily repaired, contrary to some plastics, and the hull is more rigid which means a better speed or less tiresome. If you're not doing anything radical get the fiberglass, or a Carbon/Kevlar if you can afford it...

Some people use Eskimo type kayaks (sea kayaks) in the river. Unless you're thinking in facing vertical waves with two meters high, or paddle for long distances (more than 20km) don't go for that type of kayak. It's less stable, much, much, much less maneuverable even with the rudder up, which means it's problematic to take into small streams and get out of there without paddling backwards and getting the back and the rudder stuck in everything. They are more expensive and damage easily in the river due to the sharp design of the hull (edges). The sealed compartments in many models also have narrower entrances.

Just noticed that Nelo have resellers in the US, so if you make a search you may get more informations about them. No, I'm not a seller from Nelo...  :)

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 10:57 by XPTO »

RacePhoto

« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2010, 23:06 »
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Sounds good, and PixelsAway also emailed me some helpful information.

No I'm not worried about tipping, mostly durability because the rivers around here run shallow and rocky, but not fast. For all I know, I could walk to that railroad bridge that I want to shoot. Except for a few deeper holes a flat bottom canoe was always fine and in most place you could touch a paddle on the bottom.

Then there are times I'm near the Mississippi, a marsh or a lake. I see a nice easy float, Buffalo National River, in Arkansas which looks natural.

I'd also like to take it on the car top for a quick paddle before Sunset when I'm on the road.

Now that I've figured out what to look for and priced them, I'll be keeping the canoe. Darn, these things aren't cheap! Used, without a paddle, maybe, but then the good entry level kayak paddles are over $130. Bottom line, for anything decent it would be a grand to get in the water. :)

XPTO

« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2010, 05:13 »
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Sounds good, and PixelsAway also emailed me some helpful information.

No I'm not worried about tipping, mostly durability because the rivers around here run shallow and rocky, but not fast. For all I know, I could walk to that railroad bridge that I want to shoot. Except for a few deeper holes a flat bottom canoe was always fine and in most place you could touch a paddle on the bottom.

Then there are times I'm near the Mississippi, a marsh or a lake. I see a nice easy float, Buffalo National River, in Arkansas which looks natural.

I'd also like to take it on the car top for a quick paddle before Sunset when I'm on the road.

Now that I've figured out what to look for and priced them, I'll be keeping the canoe. Darn, these things aren't cheap! Used, without a paddle, maybe, but then the good entry level kayak paddles are over $130. Bottom line, for anything decent it would be a grand to get in the water. :)


Well, the model I've shown you has a flat bottom and you won't touch the bottom of the river even with less than 25cm (10 inches). Of course paddling in such a shallow water is a pain...   :)

In the case of fiber-glass you can always require a reinforced bottom, at a cost of increased weight.

As for the prices, that sounds a really pricey... Especially the paddle. I was expecting for things like these to be much cheaper in the US, but guess I'm wrong.

As for the paddle, avoid the competition types (like Pixelsaway is using) and the ones made with carbon. They are fragile and unless you've got a competition paddling technique you'll get tired really soon as the entrance in the water demands an accurate movement and precision, and the size requires a good deal of strength. Especially if you decide to get a slower kayak which will not respond well to so much power.

The traditional ones, flat shaped and made of plastic and aluminum tube are more than enough. They excuse you the wrong movements without the risk of tipping, and the simpler smaller paddle means that while you have to paddle more times, in the long term you'll get less tired. It's preferable to make more movements with a low requirement of energy than to make less, more powerful movements but that will drain your energy quickly unless you're a very trained paddler. And they are really cheap too.

XPTO

« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2010, 05:39 »
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One more, but VERY IMPORTANT THING (sorry for the caps and bold):

If you decide to get a kayak pay attention to the size of the cockpit entry. If you tip and the entry is small you may get your legs stuck and drown if you've got no experience!

I'm not kidding!

If you've got no experience in kayaking and you've never tipped, I advise you to tip on purpose at least 3 or 4 times near the shore with someone to help you in case it goes wrong so you can feel the best way to get your legs out of the cockpit. And do it in the first time you get into the kayak.

I've got a lot of experience with canoes also and I can guarantee it's a totally different thing. In the canoe you tip almost in slow motion, don't get stuck and as you're high you've got a "lot of time" (in relative terms  :)) to prepare to get in the water.

The kayak is not only faster in the tipping movement, you're much closer to the water and in the worse cases you almost don't have time to hold your breath. Besides you may possibly end up with the boat on top of you.

So train your tipping before you adventure, especially if you paddle alone. I'm not trying to scare you but it's a really important thing to do.

The kayak I've shown you has a great cockpit entrance and poses no major problems but there are some so narrow that are really dangerous even for experience kayakers.

Even if you plan to learn how to turn around when you tip (don't know the term in English), do what I've advised you as sometimes you may not be able to turn around and have to slip out of the kayak.

RacePhoto

« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2010, 01:51 »
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Yes, and since I'm larger than I used to be, I may get stuck easier?  ;D

That was what I had in the other message about dumping on purpose. I'd take the canoe out (with the proper PFD and spare paddle) dump and let it fill up. Then practice getting it back upright and empty and crawl back in. Not just when I was a teen, even in later years. Good way to go swimming and practice re-entry.

I'm not racing, it's just transportation to the "Photo-Op".

The whole idea was small and light. I may have overstated the prices, but if someone is investing in something like this, you only get what you pay for. Spending less, could lead to a wasteful disappointment and something that isn't useful. If I wanted cheap, I could just get an inflatable and be done with it. As it is, the canoe is probably 30 years old and just fine. The aluminum canoe was a 1950s Grumman which was heavy gauge, well built and very solid. I was just cutting down on storage and how many canoes does one person need?  :)

« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 10:15 »
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Great info guys. I have been looking at getting a kayak and hope to do some photography while in the water. I will be sure to post some info on how it goes once I get my boat.


 

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