Author Topic: Let's support helping families on polish ukrainian border (Read 35880 times)

Millionstock.com · « **on:** March 10, 2022, 04:42 »

As a photographer I was impressed by the wonderful polish people that are helping privately thousands and thousands of ukrainian refugees.
I have created a fundrising to support those helpful people.
Thanks for supporting and sorry for the off-topic, but the situation here is really hard!

https://www.gofundme.com/f/lets-help-ukrainian-refugees-on-polish-border

trabuco · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2022, 06:01 »

The wonderful polish people are rising a wall against dark skin refugees after throwing some stones to them:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/27/poland-starts-building-wall-through-protected-forest-at-belarus-border

Quote

Poland has started building a wall along its frontier with Belarus aimed at preventing asylum seekers from entering the country, which cuts through a protected forest and Unesco world heritage site.

The Polish border guard said the barrier would measure 186km (115 miles), almost half the length of the border shared by the two countries, reach up to 5.5 metres (18ft) and cost €353m (£293m). It will be equipped with motion detectors and thermal cameras.

Quote

Thousands of asylum seekers, mainly from Syria, Iraqi Kurdistan and Afghanistan, were caught attempting to cross the frontier and were violently pushed back to Belarus by Poland’s border guards, and hundreds of families were trapped in the forest between the two countries in the midst of a frigid winter.

Maybe Poland's government could use the 353M euros to help these families.

cascoly · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2022, 12:26 »

For those who might not know where to donate, there's the UNHCR, first formed after WWII

https://give.unrefugees.org/170101ukr_mainpg_p_3000/

Zero Talent · « **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2022, 16:00 »

This is very courageous! A very brave woman!

https://youtu.be/URTrP1xHpQA

The sign says:
Stop the War. Don't believe the propaganda. They lie to you!
She is now arrested (obviously), "for being a good person with a mind of her own", as one of the comments said.

This is the charity I used: https://novaukraine.org/ (mentioned before in one of those blocked name-calling threads)

trabuco · « **Reply #4 on:** March 15, 2022, 02:22 »

You can donate directly to the ukrainian government if you want using crypto.

trabuco · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2022, 02:28 »

I think you should not send funds to Poland. They have the Union funds frozen for violate the european laws about independent courts or civil rights like gay rights or free press.

European Union countries can not be expelled. They just can quit. So we have a problem with some eastern countries and this kind of post-soviet s.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #6 on:** March 15, 2022, 09:23 »

Quote from: trabuco on March 15, 2022, 02:28

I think you should not send funds to Poland. They have the Union funds frozen for violate the european laws about independent courts or civil rights like gay rights or free press.

European Union countries can not be expelled. They just can quit. So we have a problem with some eastern countries and this kind of post-soviet s.

Nah, Poland is doing a great job in accommodating Ukrainian refugees. They do more than any other country from this point of view, maybe because they know better than most, what it means to be bullied by Russian imperialism.

I agree that Poland has issues, but in this case, their attitude is exemplary. Morawiecki, the Polish prime minister is about to travel to Kyiv by train.
A politician who is bravely going in the eye of the storm is a great solidarity symbol.

Don't fall for Putin's propaganda. Don't fall for his "Divide et Impera" strategy.

trabuco · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2022, 03:08 »

It is not propaganda. Poland is not a Democratic country anymore and should be expelled from the Union.

Yesterday, polish people used to say that ukrainians were stolen their jobs. Glad they changed their minds now.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2022, 08:53 »

Here is an index of what propaganda is about these days, a lot of it originating from Russia itself or from Putin's useful idiots:

1. Fear inducing, demoralization, panic: gas prices, nuclear war, inflation. Obviously, war is impacting the economy, but panic is not justified.

2. Theory of Putin's unavoidable victory: Ukraine should surrender, and we should respect and fear Russia's might and accommodate Russia's zone of influence (although Putin's intended blitzkrieg is far from a "blitz", but rather a war of attrition, now)

3. Repeating the shameless neo-soviet lies: it's not an invasion of a sovereign state, but a "special operation", a de-Nazification. Zelensky is a drug addict and a buffoon.

4. Cherry-picking: selecting only the convenient truth, like the stupid decision to remove Tchaikovsky from the repertoire of some orchestra, being amplified to worldwide proportions. It's like Tchaikovsky is in danger, not millions of Ukrainians.

5. Divide et Impera: Poland is not to be trusted (despite doing more than most to help Ukraine), Poland or Ukraine have a history of mistreating minorities, etc

6. Whataboutism: What about other invasions throughout history (like Irak, Serbia which btw, were aggressors and dictatorships, unlike Ukraine), why should we care about refugees, what about our own poor people, what about this, and what about that...

7. False comparisons: UE is no different than Russia, we are a colony, we have no say in matters of national interests anymore (all this despite clear evidence that the standard of living and the prosperity in most EU+NATO East European countries have reached historical peaks, exactly because of the EU's trade agreements and development support, under NATO's security umbrella)

8. Manipulation of existing frustrations: UE/USA/NATO are guilty of everything, from the "Chinese" virus to Putin's invasion, immigration, and gas prices...

9. Conspiracy theory: they didn't succeed to muzzle us up with masks, microchips, or killing us all with experimental serums, now the globalist cabal wants to distract our attention and pushed an innocent Putin to attack Ukraine (wag the dog). Or Putin must be appreciated because HE ended the pandemic hysteria.

10. False pacifism and blame-shifting: NATO provoked Russia, by disregarding its strategic interests, by expanding eastwards. Russia has the right to decide the faith of other countries like Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova, and beyond. Zelensky is guilty because he doesn't surrender immediately. We want peace and we want a neutral Ukraine like Finland (ironically, Finland is considering more than ever to join NATO, after seeing how dangerous is to be alone).

11. Smart speculation of legitimate complaints about leftist and neo-Marxist trends (cancel culture, etc), by claiming that Putin is the hero, a true conservative who is defending Europe's traditions, a good Christian (because he flushed Mount Athos with petro-dollars), etc.
In reality, Putin's doctrine is barbaric, anti-democratic, criminal, anti-Christian.
The Stalinist executioner is arresting and killing his opponents, is invading countries, is bombing hospitals and maternities. What else can be more opposed to Christian teachings, more opposed to the conservative caution, skepticism, and moderation, or more opposed to civilization itself?

trabuco · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2022, 09:43 »

We are not americans. Propaganda is useless against us in most of cases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Paramilitary_organisations_based_in_Poland --> This kind of s. should not happen here, as you know. We should not be in the same organization these idiots with guns are. Not even in NATO, which is cool for Poland or Latvia, but useless here.

And we don't like the longest di.ck game playing with Russia either. Not only Russia like wars every couple of years. Today is easy, I admit, because a country is been destroyed for nothing (one of the most corrupt countries in the world and never a member of the EU). Tomorrow all western european countries should quit NATO.

And then, play with Russia whatever you want (better in Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua if possible).

Regards

Zero Talent · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2022, 10:04 »

Quote from: trabuco on March 17, 2022, 09:43

We are not americans. Propaganda is useless against us in most of cases.

If not propaganda, then see the useful idiot definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
There were too many of them in the past helping Lenin and Stalin with their rhetoric, there are too many now, helping Putin with his.

Quote from: trabuco on March 17, 2022, 09:43

We should not be in the same organization these idiots with guns are.

See point 5, above Divide et Impera

Quote from: trabuco on March 17, 2022, 09:43

Tomorrow all western european countries should quit NATO.

See point 5 above Divide et Impera

Quote from: trabuco on March 17, 2022, 09:43

And then, play with Russia whatever you want (better in Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua if possible).

See point 6 above: Whataboutism.

Quote from: trabuco on March 17, 2022, 09:43

(one of the most corrupt countries in the world and never a member of the EU).

See point 7 above False comparisons:
Corruption is a fact indeed, but that's exactly because of the Russian political model and influence extended over Ukraine.
Other East-European countries (formerly under the Russian influence) are still plagued by corruption to a certain degree, but their progress towards a Rule of Law society is immense, exactly because of the constraints required by the EU and NATO memberships.

trabuco · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2022, 11:26 »

NATO membership?

You can not be serious

Maybe in the EU if they don't cheat us

This is hilarious.

In fact the main Putin support is the USA and their common business like oil. Trump is a good friend of him (and Zelenksy, the hero, help him to cheat in your general banana election).

How many ukrainian refugees are going to live in the USA? They are white. Could we know the number? ?

https://www.reuters.com/world/why-isnt-us-accepting-more-ukrainian-refugees-2022-03-16/

Quote

COULD THE U.S. ACCEPT MORE UKRAINIAN REFUGEES?

The United States admitted only 514 Ukrainian refugees in January and February during Russia's build-up to the war, according to U.S. State Department data.

Only seven Ukrainian refugees were resettled in the United States from March 1-16, according to internal State Department data seen by Reuters, as the war intensified and the number of Ukrainians fleeing skyrocketed.

In the small town I was born (pop 70.000) there are more ukaininan refugees than in the USA.

so...

Zero Talent · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2022, 11:51 »

You misunderstood what I wrote.

Besides, you have no point to make except for sowing discord.
You first rant against Poland, then you rant against The USA, mostly because of unrelated, old matters, instead of appreciating the support (clearly insufficient) offered so far.

Despite all these parties being united today like never before, against a barbaric aggressor, you insist in highligting the differences and why we shouldn't be united.

See point number 5. above: Divide et Impera

Just_to_inform_people2 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 17, 2022, 13:47 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 17, 2022, 11:51

Despite all these parties being united today like never before, against a barbaric aggressor, you insist in highligting the differences and why we shouldn't be united.

Zero, you are from the States right? So how much do your politicians drink all day when they are rambling around in a news conference?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1503556754168242186

Priceless

Also when Biden speaks, if he doesn't fall asleep.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #14 on:** March 17, 2022, 18:51 »

What does that have to do with anything?

Go and check point 4 in the propagada playbook above: Cherry Picking

cascoly · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2022, 06:57 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 17, 2022, 18:51

What does that have to do with anything?

Go and check point 4 in the propagada playbook above: Cherry Picking

Really? you expect them to actually read your factual replies when it's easier to just keep vomiting more gibberish?

DroneNamibia · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2022, 08:25 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 14, 2022, 16:00

This is very courageous! A very brave woman!

https://youtu.be/URTrP1xHpQA

The sign says:
Stop the War. Don't believe the propaganda. They lie to you!
She is now arrested (obviously), "for being a good person with a mind of her own", as one of the comments said.

This is the charity I used: https://novaukraine.org/ (mentioned before in one of those blocked name-calling threads)

I understand she is shot (obviously) by Putin, hasn't she?

ShadySue · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2022, 08:27 »

Quote from: DroneNamibia on March 18, 2022, 08:25

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 14, 2022, 16:00
This is very courageous! A very brave woman!

https://youtu.be/URTrP1xHpQA

The sign says:
Stop the War. Don't believe the propaganda. They lie to you!
She is now arrested (obviously), "for being a good person with a mind of her own", as one of the comments said.

This is the charity I used: https://novaukraine.org/ (mentioned before in one of those blocked name-calling threads)

I understand she is shot (obviously) by Putin, hasn't she?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/18/russian-journalist-who-staged-anti-war-tv-protest-quits-job-but-rejects-french-asylum-offer

Zero Talent · « **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2022, 11:11 »

More about Putin's propaganda and his network of trolls and useful idiots.
A lot of these re-tweets are originating from India or African countries. About half of these tweets are from early 2022, have very few followers but a huge success.
The peak was reached on the 2nd - 3rd of March with more than 100k tweets for #istandwithputin and 50k tweets for #istandwithrussia, the day before Twitter was blocked in Russia.

Here are the first 10 tweets based on the number of re-tweets for #istandwithputin.

Russia is good:

A lot of images of Putin through water and fire. The one with rain over Putin is very popular.

Russia bravely fighting against its enemies:

Ukrainian are n*zis

The West is bad (#whataboutism):

Palestine is a significant topic, holding the record of memes per country

Russia is a friend of Africa:

Many maps in reference to Africa's colonial past:

Many references to western racism against Africans:

Russia is India's best friend:

Conspiracy Theories (Soros & Co):

Milleflore · « **Reply #19 on:** March 18, 2022, 14:05 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 17, 2022, 08:53

Here is an index of what propaganda is about these days, a lot of it originating from Russia itself or from Putin's useful idiots:

1. Fear inducing, demoralization, panic: gas prices, nuclear war, inflation. Obviously, war is impacting the economy, but panic is not justified.

2. Theory of Putin's unavoidable victory: Ukraine should surrender, and we should respect and fear Russia's might and accommodate Russia's zone of influence (although Putin's intended blitzkrieg is far from a "blitz", but rather a war of attrition, now)

3. Repeating the shameless neo-soviet lies: it's not an invasion of a sovereign state, but a "special operation", a de-Nazification. Zelensky is a drug addict and a buffoon.

4. Cherry-picking: selecting only the convenient truth, like the stupid decision to remove Tchaikovsky from the repertoire of some orchestra, being amplified to worldwide proportions. It's like Tchaikovsky is in danger, not millions of Ukrainians.

5. Divide et Impera: Poland is not to be trusted (despite doing more than most to help Ukraine), Poland or Ukraine have a history of mistreating minorities, etc

6. Whataboutism: What about other invasions throughout history (like Irak, Serbia which btw, were aggressors and dictatorships, unlike Ukraine), why should we care about refugees, what about our own poor people, what about this, and what about that...

7. False comparisons: UE is no different than Russia, we are a colony, we have no say in matters of national interests anymore (all this despite clear evidence that the standard of living and the prosperity in most EU+NATO East European countries have reached historical peaks, exactly because of the EU's trade agreements and development support, under NATO's security umbrella)

8. Manipulation of existing frustrations: UE/USA/NATO are guilty of everything, from the "Chinese" virus to Putin's invasion, immigration, and gas prices...

9. Conspiracy theory: they didn't succeed to muzzle us up with masks, microchips, or killing us all with experimental serums, now the globalist cabal wants to distract our attention and pushed an innocent Putin to attack Ukraine (wag the dog). Or Putin must be appreciated because HE ended the pandemic hysteria.

10. False pacifism and blame-shifting: NATO provoked Russia, by disregarding its strategic interests, by expanding eastwards. Russia has the right to decide the faith of other countries like Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova, and beyond. Zelensky is guilty because he doesn't surrender immediately. We want peace and we want a neutral Ukraine like Finland (ironically, Finland is considering more than ever to join NATO, after seeing how dangerous is to be alone).

11. Smart speculation of legitimate complaints about leftist and neo-Marxist trends (cancel culture, etc), by claiming that Putin is the hero, a true conservative who is defending Europe's traditions, a good Christian (because he flushed Mount Athos with petro-dollars), etc.
In reality, Putin's doctrine is barbaric, anti-democratic, criminal, anti-Christian.
The Stalinist executioner is arresting and killing his opponents, is invading countries, is bombing hospitals and maternities. What else can be more opposed to Christian teachings, more opposed to the conservative caution, skepticism, and moderation, or more opposed to civilization itself?

Thank you for posting this. The main steps (bolded) are so true in any dictator's/manipulator's playbook.

Recently a friend showed me a 'recruitment' video by QAnon, not to recruit me, but to show me what horrible tactics they use. And the first few minutes, started exactly like this. It was dark and menacing and focused on people's fears. That's how they hook them in.

I also watched a great documentary series produced by Steven Spielberg last year, called 'Why We Hate' and it covered the history of many dictators, and they followed this same playbook (fear-inducing, conspiracy theories, divide and conquer, etc)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Hate#:~:text=Why%20We%20Hate%20is%20a%20six-part%20documentary%20television,2020%2C%20it%20was%20announced%20that%20a%20TV%20

They also de-humanize their opposition by calling them names such as 'cockroaches' or 'evil monsters' so that its easier for people to hate them.

Just_to_inform_people2 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 18, 2022, 14:13 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 17, 2022, 18:51

What does that have to do with anything?

Go and check point 4 in the propagada playbook above: Cherry Picking

Just sayin, I don't feel united with Russia but also not with the USA. I think your politicians are simple and warmongers. And Pelosi, Biden, Clinton and Trump are all jokes. I really can't feel one with any of them.

But you think that if you are not with us you are against us. And that is pretty pathetic.

As for your infantile list:

"1. Fear inducing, demoralization, panic: gas prices, nuclear war, inflation. Obviously, war is impacting the economy, but panic is not justified"

Gas prices and inlfation are high because of the sanctions imposed by the western countries not directly by the war itself as well as factors, you described yourself, being long term moneyprinting and low rates. Panic about nuclear war was raised by western polticians (like Pelosi, as is clear in the link I send). Fear is induced by western countries as well, for example there is completely no evidence that Russia would invade any other country then Ukraine. Fear was raised by Zelinsky when he said that we would be next in Europe or that if the Chernobyl reactor did not have power we had a nucelar disaster all over Europe etc... All not true.

Like I said, everybody (including the Russians) are using propaganda to make the other look bad or to drag more people in this war. The US probably does not want an end to the war soon because they like to see Russia lose money for a long time and they hope they can benefit from a bankrupt Russia. I don't see any humitarian motive, just oppurtinism. Same goes for the EU countries.
I'll pass to join this madness (all which could have been avoided by mutliple parties in the (recent) past if people were not that oppurtinistic) and not in the least place because the Ukranian government is one of the most corrupt in the world and they have been acting the same, as the russians do now, in the eastern part of Ukraine for the last eight years. But apparently bombing civilian targets and killing children is only bad when you are russian. It should be bad always. If it is Ukraine, Yemen, Afghanistan, Irak or where ever.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #21 on:** March 18, 2022, 15:46 »

Yes, today's inflation is not caused by the war, but by excessive covid related expenses. Obviously, the propaganda can't be that subtle because is meant to brainwash the masses, not to make them think.

Having said that, all wars are always requiring a lot of money printing to sustain increased governmental expenses. So we will see another war-related inflation spike in the near future. There is no doubt about this.

Otherwise, it's not just Pelosi, but many other US and European politicians who are still scared of Putin's nuclear/WWIII "threat".

It looks like very few bothered to read Thomas Schelling, and his game theory applied to international relations, summarized in this analogy:

Premise:
You're standing at the edge of a cliff, chained by the ankle to someone else.
You'll be released, and one of you will get a large prize, as soon as the other gives in.
How do you persuade the other guy to give in, when the only method at your disposal—threatening to push him off the cliff—would doom you both?

Answer:
You start dancing, closer and closer to the edge. That way, you don't have to convince him that you would do something totally irrational: plunge him and yourself off the cliff.
You just have to convince him that you are prepared to take a higher risk than he is of accidentally falling off the cliff.
If you can do that, you win"

That's what Putin is doing: he is dancing on the edge of the cliff with his nuclear/WWIII "threat", and too many politicians are afraid to call his bluff, letting him win his propaganda war, designed to spread panic.

If you are an intelligent person, you must be able to filter propaganda from reality:
Blaming a rape victim (read Ukraine) for being raped is propaganda (see point number 10, blame-shifting above).
Accusing the rapist (read Putin) is not.

Just_to_inform_people2 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 18, 2022, 18:07 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on March 18, 2022, 15:46

Blaming a rape victim (read Ukraine) for being raped is propaganda (see point number 10, blame-shifting above).
Accusing the rapist (read Putin) is not.

If you want to use that metaphore fine. First of all, I believe in geopolitical politics (call me me a conspiracist if you want). I agree with the russians that NATO (with the US leading) has been expanding towards their border and that, although they complained about it for decades, NATO went right ahead. So that would be like kissing somebody against their will even though the other person tells you they don't like it. Then there is the EU that has this expansion drift. They feel to small versus the US, Russia and China so they want to grow bigger. They cannot go north or west. They are trying (in the long term) North Africa but it's easier to go east. Even though these countries do not fit in the culture of old Europe they don't care as long as they get bigger versus the countries mentioned before. The EU, with european politicians on the Maidan square in Kiev, were supporting a coup (a coup!!!) in Ukraine which then shortly after took place. That would be like getting under your shirt when you already mentioned lots of times you don't want that.
A lot of people think that the Ukranian people consist of one people. It's not, you have mutiple ethnicities living there, of which also russians. The latter didn't approve that the coup perpetrators were about to cut the ties with russia and they claimed independency in the areas where they were the majority. The Ukranian government didn't allow it and that is why (in short) you have a civil war for eight years now. In this war the Ukranian army has "raped" the ethnic russians again and again. By bombarding civil targets, leaving one million people homeless, creating refugees, denying them of any rights etcetera.
So now the rapist has become the rape victim because there has come a bigger bully into play.
You can call that propaganda for Russia. But, my opinion is that, if NATO (with the US in charge) didn't expand so much to the russian border, the EU wasn't so hungry and eating up, one country after another, or the current Ukranian government would have respected the Minsk agreements, this all would probably not have happened. Is it an excuse for what's happening and the invasion by Russia or the killings by the russian army? No, it is not, but I do not only blame the russians for it even though they are the agressor now. A lot of parties have blood on their hands, a lot of parties probably have other motives then just humanitarian ones and a lot of parties could have prevented this from ever happening. Especially the US and the EU.
So Russia is very bad but so is the US, the EU and Ukraine. And don't start with your whataboutism because these facts have led to this situation. To put it more in you metaphore. If somebody get's raped all the time and that person would eventually kill or hurt the rapist badly would that be all bad or somewhat understandable?

Zero Talent · « **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2022, 21:53 »

No, it's not like "kissing somebody against their will".

All Eastern European countries JOINED NATO and the EU because they wanted to. Nobody forced them to do it. They had to knock on NATO and EU doors for years, making many adjustments and compromises before meeting the acceptance criteria.
This is because all of them suffered more than enough for 45 years under the Russian boot, and wanted freedom and protection exactly against what we see happening to Ukraine today.

So, to continue the analogy, it was a relationship between consenting adults, between NATO and EU countries, and their new members.
The problem is that Russia, mad with gelosy, didn't want to see a former partner "kissing" someone else, and became brutal and violent.

You are not only blaming the rape victim for being raped by a former partner; you are also blaming the person the victim wants to live with.

Go back, read again Putin's propaganda index published above, and count on how many points you fell for it (hint: it's more than point 6. whataboutism)

ShadySue · « **Reply #24 on:** March 19, 2022, 05:01 »

Quote from: SVH on March 18, 2022, 18:07

If you want to use that metaphore fine. First of all, I believe in geopolitical politics (call me me a conspiracist if you want). I agree with the russians that NATO (with the US leading) has been expanding towards their border and that, although they complained about it for decades, NATO went right ahead. So that would be like kissing somebody against their will even though the other person tells you they don't like it.

No, it's not remotely like that.
If I'm offended because my neighbour is more friendly with her other neighbour than with me, and then she and the other neighbours further down all gang up and ignore me, and do weird stuff, like erecting tacky monstrosities that brings down the value of the street, and I get paranoid in case they might throw a brick through my window one day, that doesn't mean I can go and bomb their houses to make sure it never happens.

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Author Topic: Let's support helping families on polish ukrainian border (Read 35880 times)

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