MicrostockGroup Sponsors


Author Topic: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!  (Read 17399 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hobostocker

    This user is banned.
« Reply #100 on: April 05, 2015, 09:02 »
0
My point is that on current wages it is largely lifestyle choices that make prices seem "indecent".  I'll agree that UK house prices have been inflated and it would be better if they fell (this is largely the work of mortgage lenders, since increasing the multiple you can borrow at automatically seems to feed into an increase in prices, tightening borrowing - or raising interest rates - depresses prices) but what you can afford still depends largely on your priorities and if you are austere in other areas you can afford more for the rent or mortgage.

sure but in practical terms i see for instance salaries in London for graphic designers set on a 15-25K pounds range that means what you can afford (one third of your salary on average) is 6-700 pounds per month and with that in London you can only expect a sh-itty student room with shared toilet ... and that's nothing i've seen ads for studio/assistant photographer at 12K/month ... how can you live with 12K in London ? that's impossible unless you already own your home or you supplement your full time job with freelance gigs.

living in a camper outside ? yes, that's an option but then it takes 2 hrs to commute and 15-20 pounds per day to rent your camper space in the camping so not a big saving unless you get some fat discounts.

i'm quite fascinated by alternative lifestyles since i've seen with my eyes several cultures here in the third world living with almost nothing but it just can't be exported in the West, everything has been banned or made illegal, even parking a camper/RV in europe's biggest cities is now illegal apart in parking lots designed for it which cost an arm and a leg (almost like renting a room), the governments are hellbent against anything that could compete with the ongoing housing scam, in some EU countries it's even forbidden to put a tent in farm land you own as by their burocracy it's considered a place where you can live full time  !

so this leaves squatting as only alternative and that's why it's so popular in UK and elsewhere.
what else these guys can afford ?



Hobostocker

    This user is banned.
« Reply #101 on: April 05, 2015, 09:08 »
0
But UK unemployment is now around the lowest it has been in the last 30 years. http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:uk:de&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:uk&ifdim=country_group&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

As for the welfare state, it wasn't created out of a fear of the USSR it was the first Labour government that set it up, in line with its socialist beliefs. It's being eroded because politicians believe it costs too much and is not efficiently targeted, not because the USSR vanished a generation ago.


they consider "empoyed" anyone doing any kind of random job, even if part time or paid like sh-it.
how many are actual in full time decently paid jobs ?

even in the germany they count the "minijobs" as jobs, but it's a fraud, a minijob can be maximum 400 euro/month ...

the fall of the USSR made sure that nothing and nobody could be politically strong enough to push euro governments towards pro-welfare policies, the communist parties in EU have pretty much disappeared apart in a few cases where they have less than 5% combined, they're totally irrilevant.


« Reply #102 on: April 05, 2015, 09:10 »
+4
capitalism was over at the exact same moment when government used tax payer's money to save big private banks.

unfortunately we still don't have good system to replace it. socialism was much more unfair and was over long long time ago.

ultimagina

« Reply #103 on: April 05, 2015, 09:15 »
-1
Quote
the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.

You forget that, what you want, has been tried for 50 years in Eastern Europe,  with disastrous social consequences. You forget that systems where some "elite" tried to fight the market forces failed miserably.
Before '89, East Germany was way behind West Germany, despite being populated by the same Germans. Look at South an North Korea. Same people, two systems. There is no need to highlight, which one belives that rules and regulations, instead if market forces, will bring prosperity (instead of inequality driven by greedy capitalists :) )

You want more government control,  more artificial rules, laws and regulations? You don't have to be Nostradamus, to imagine where it will end. Just look at North Korea. History can easily repeat itself.

« Reply #104 on: April 05, 2015, 11:10 »
0
Quote
the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.

You forget that, what you want, has been tried for 50 years in Eastern Europe,  with disastrous social consequences. You forget that systems where some "elite" tried to fight the market forces failed miserably.
Before '89, East Germany was way behind West Germany, despite being populated by the same Germans. Look at South an North Korea. Same people, two systems. There is no need to highlight, which one belives that rules and regulations, instead if market forces, will bring prosperity (instead of inequality driven by greedy capitalists :) )

You want more government control,  more artificial rules, laws and regulations? You don't have to be Nostradamus, to imagine where it will end. Just look at North Korea. History can easily repeat itself.
There isn't much logic in taking an original argument about basic minimum wages in the US and comparing it to the system in North Korea.

« Reply #105 on: April 05, 2015, 12:17 »
+3

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.

Any guesses who's quote this is?

Great quote!  It sounded familiar, but kuddos to Batman and Ultimagaina for creditiing it to Socrates in The Dialogues of Plato.  Its been more than 30 years since I read it, and at the time it definitely applied to me.
Except, pixelbytes (and I'm sorry about this) it isn't in Plato. (Of course, if you can point to the specific lines I will eat some humble pie).

No Free Lunch

« Reply #106 on: April 05, 2015, 12:28 »
+1
For an 'Off Topic' subject this has turn into a very interesting string  :)



« Reply #107 on: April 05, 2015, 13:10 »
0

There's plenty of opportunities for people who have the right skills for jobs that are in demand and are motivated to get a job

It seems like the go-getter is a dying breed.

yes but only as long as the US limits the number of H1B visas and as the EU sticks with draconian work laws, the whole supply/demand is totally artificial and if it was for the employers they would flood the market with millions of skilled but low-paid immigrants.

so where are you living??? a long time ago Enoch Powell had the same spite for immigrants
in Britain but no one in England wanted to work instead of collecting social assistance. The brown immigrant flooded England to work as garbage collectors, WC cleaners and maintenance,etc
Powell was pissedoff because they brown the white society.
these days, we also have low-paid immigrants like you call them coming from latin-am, eastern europe, etc
seems like everyone dislike the idea of immigrants. we forget sometimes that the first immigrants came to USA as cheap labor too, to build the railroad and they too were looked down upon by the settlers.
but before the settlers came, the land was actually already occupied by the native.
in india and other colonies, the same thing was happening when the cocky brits and spanish and portuguese considered themselves as the founder of the land long occupied by natives.

so, cut the crap about low paid immigrants flooding the nation.
to USA

« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2015, 13:15 »
0
Quote
the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.

You forget that, what you want, has been tried for 50 years in Eastern Europe,  with disastrous social consequences. You forget that systems where some "elite" tried to fight the market forces failed miserably.
Before '89, East Germany was way behind West Germany, despite being populated by the same Germans. Look at South an North Korea. Same people, two systems. There is no need to highlight, which one belives that rules and regulations, instead if market forces, will bring prosperity (instead of inequality driven by greedy capitalists :) )

You want more government control,  more artificial rules, laws and regulations? You don't have to be Nostradamus, to imagine where it will end. Just look at North Korea. History can easily repeat itself.
There isn't much logic in taking an original argument about basic minimum wages in the US and comparing it to the system in North Korea.

Sure it is. North Korea and former economies of Eastern Europe show what happens when government gets too much central control. It can only fail. The trick is striking a good balance, preferably weighed more toward free markets than otherwise.

You still have to have some government. It does no good to build a highway and have no rules for using it. All you'd get is chaos. At the same time, nobody wants a highway where you have to drive 35 mph all the time because some people aren't good at driving faster than that.

« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2015, 13:27 »
0

Sure it is. North Korea and former economies of Eastern Europe show what happens when government gets too much central control. It can only fail. The trick is striking a good balance, preferably weighed more toward free markets than otherwise.


What about China?

I'm from Eastern Europe, what exactly happened to our economy?

« Reply #110 on: April 05, 2015, 13:53 »
0

Sure it is. North Korea and former economies of Eastern Europe show what happens when government gets too much central control. It can only fail. The trick is striking a good balance, preferably weighed more toward free markets than otherwise.


What about China?

I'm from Eastern Europe, what exactly happened to our economy?
Seattle or Estonia or North Korea who can tell the difference? 

ultimagina

« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2015, 13:56 »
-1

Sure it is. North Korea and former economies of Eastern Europe show what happens when government gets too much central control. It can only fail. The trick is striking a good balance, preferably weighed more toward free markets than otherwise.


What about China?

I'm from Eastern Europe, what exactly happened to our economy?
What happened is that all economies were crippled by the centralized planning, when some bureaucrats belived that they know better what people need, than people themselves, they belived they can set prices and wages better than the market itself. What happened was a lack of basic goods and a flourishing black market. People stop using money because it didn't have any value, directly trading services or  goods (a lot of them stolen from their workplaces  because everything belonged to everybody and nobody at the same time)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 14:03 by ultimagaina »

« Reply #112 on: April 05, 2015, 14:03 »
+1
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
http://tinyurl.com/37q963

« Reply #113 on: April 05, 2015, 14:05 »
0

What happened is that all economies were crippled by the centralized planning, when some bureaucrats belived that they know better what people need, than people themselves, they belived they can set prices and wages better than the market itself. What happened was a lack of basic goods and a flourishing black market. People stop using money because it didn't have any value, directly trading services or  goods (a lot of them stolen from their workplaces  because everything belonged to everybody and nobody at the same time)

In which Eastern European country do you live?


ultimagina

« Reply #114 on: April 05, 2015, 14:16 »
-2

What happened is that all economies were crippled by the centralized planning, when some bureaucrats belived that they know better what people need, than people themselves, they belived they can set prices and wages better than the market itself. What happened was a lack of basic goods and a flourishing black market. People stop using money because it didn't have any value, directly trading services or  goods (a lot of them stolen from their workplaces  because everything belonged to everybody and nobody at the same time)

In which Eastern European country do you live?
Does it matter? Do you deny the above facts?
Sooner or later these will be the direct consequences of centralized planning, artificial price and salary fixing, or minimum wage laws, with no economical justification.

« Reply #115 on: April 05, 2015, 14:21 »
+1

There's plenty of opportunities for people who have the right skills for jobs that are in demand and are motivated to get a job

It seems like the go-getter is a dying breed.

yes but only as long as the US limits the number of H1B visas and as the EU sticks with draconian work laws, the whole supply/demand is totally artificial and if it was for the employers they would flood the market with millions of skilled but low-paid immigrants.

so where are you living??? a long time ago Enoch Powell had the same spite for immigrants
in Britain but no one in England wanted to work instead of collecting social assistance. The brown immigrant flooded England to work as garbage collectors, WC cleaners and maintenance,etc
Powell was pissedoff because they brown the white society.

Powell was the first government official to bring Caribbean immigrants into Britain. He was a very complex man and to say he had "spite for immigrants" is wrong. After his initial enthusiasm for immigration (cheap workers for the buses) he became worried about the way intolerance might explode into violence. He was the MP for the constituency with one of the highest immigrant populations (Wolverhampton South-West) and they voted for him in droves. He was a man of his times with the prejudices that went with it, but he was also probably cleverer than any MP in the House today.

« Reply #116 on: April 05, 2015, 14:27 »
0

Sure it is. North Korea and former economies of Eastern Europe show what happens when government gets too much central control. It can only fail. The trick is striking a good balance, preferably weighed more toward free markets than otherwise.


What about China?

I'm from Eastern Europe, what exactly happened to our economy?
What happened is that all economies were crippled by the centralized planning, when some bureaucrats belived that they know better what people need, than people themselves, they belived they can set prices and wages better than the market itself. What happened was a lack of basic goods and a flourishing black market. People stop using money because it didn't have any value, directly trading services or  goods (a lot of them stolen from their workplaces  because everything belonged to everybody and nobody at the same time)
I think you are maybe mixing things together there and they need to be teased out into seperate strands to understand what went wrong in different ways. For example, central planning requires a full understanding of the flow of all elements in the production system. It's just not humanly possible to do that. Only individual, uncontrolled cells of supply and demand can do it.  That affects what is available, but it doesn't affect the value of money. And I don't think a black market devalues money, either, but you need an economist to discuss those things.

ultimagina

« Reply #117 on: April 05, 2015, 14:32 »
-2
No, I'm not mixing things.
Rent fixing (to help the poor) leads to lack of housing. Salary fixing (to help the poor) leads to lack of employment. Fixing the price of basic goods (to protect the poor) leads to a lack of basics goods.
This has been proven over and over again. The poor ends up being poorer.
The lack of goods makes goods costlier.
The government raises salaries to keep up or is forced to introduce rationing. Raising salaries leads to inflation and the money is losing value. Rationing leads to black market.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 14:42 by ultimagaina »

« Reply #118 on: April 05, 2015, 14:53 »
+2

Does it matter? Do you deny the above facts?
Sooner or later these will be the direct consequences of centralized planning, artificial price and salary fixing, or minimum wage laws, with no economical justification.

Sure it matters, because you don't understand what really happened to most Eastern European countries. Only from media as I can see.

You are partly right but the worst things in my country happened after socialism/communism when neoliberal capitalism started, when few chosen families got everything because of their political/party  matters without any professional knowledge and robbed/destroyed or sold to foreign owners all ex-state-owned companies/banks/factories. Hundreds of thousands of people got fired. National debt sky rocketed.

Socialism failed obviously when people decided to abandon it and there were good reasons for that, neoliberal capitalism failed when governments started to "help" private banks whose managers got millions for bonuses with as you say poor people tax payers money.

Do you agree with that or at least are you able to see it?


ultimagina

« Reply #119 on: April 05, 2015, 15:12 »
-2
Belive me, I know better than you think and it is not from the media.
The socialists economies were not able to compete with market driven economies. This is why all those painful re-adjustments were necessary.
And the corruption that followed, has been enabled exactly because the free market economy was not in place. There was no respect for property because the whole economy has been previously nationalized. Factories were sold for pennies to corupt politicians because they didn't belong to anyone.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 15:19 by ultimagaina »

« Reply #120 on: April 05, 2015, 15:37 »
+2
Belive me, I know better than you think and it is not from the media.
The socialists economies were not able to compete with market driven economies. This is why all those painful re-adjustments were necessary.
And the corruption that followed, has been enabled exactly because the free market economy was not in place. There was no respect for property because the whole economy has been previously nationalized. Factories were sold for pennies to corupt politicians because they didn't belong to anyone.

What do you think about governments of countries with so called free market economies helps private banks with tax money?

Do you think there is any real free market economy in the world without any interfering from the government? Name few if you can please


ultimagina

« Reply #121 on: April 05, 2015, 15:56 »
-1
I don't think highly about government interference in the economy. This is exactly what is debated in this thread.

« Reply #122 on: April 05, 2015, 16:23 »
-4
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
http://tinyurl.com/37q963


Worked out good for me. I was able to buy a foreclosure for $75,000 in 2011, remodel it for about $15,000 and now I'm selling it for $150,000 after 2.5 years. All tax free because I used it as my primary residence and reinvesting it in a new, better house.

« Reply #123 on: April 05, 2015, 16:24 »
+1
I don't think highly about government interference in the economy. This is exactly what is debated in this thread.

Great, but you said many times when replying to me about "not being able to compete with free market economies" which in the matter of fact don't even exist.

So many prices are controlled and you said that the problem is helping the poor.

Socialism where "equal to all" is completely unfair, but system where few percent of most richest people own same amount of money as the rest of the world is at least unfair as socialism. That's why world need third option.

Biggest economies in the world were made on the power of slavery/immigrants and now same countries are being smart a$$ and talking poorer ones what and how should they do things. If it isn't sad it would be funny.

With no minimum wages you can always say if someone don't want to work for 2$ per hour, you can find others that want to. Sure you can find someone from third world countries who will work for food and warm bed but if you think only about economical justification, not moral/political/law/humanity or any other then the best way from company or country to succeed is free workers (read:slavery). Is it?


Shelma1

« Reply #124 on: April 05, 2015, 17:50 »
+1
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
http://tinyurl.com/37q963


Worked out good for me. I was able to buy a foreclosure for $75,000 in 2011, remodel it for about $15,000 and now I'm selling it for $150,000 after 2.5 years. All tax free because I used it as my primary residence and reinvesting it in a new, better house.


Your attitude simply amazes me. The only reason the mortgage crisis worked for you was luck. If you'd bought that house 5 years earlier, it would now be worth less than what you paid for it. But heck, it worked for you, so eff the suckers who could afford a house before you could.


 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
0 Replies
1447 Views
Last post September 30, 2008, 17:27
by Rahul Pathak
1 Replies
1277 Views
Last post September 13, 2012, 11:36
by StanRohrer
11 Replies
2400 Views
Last post May 01, 2013, 22:52
by Silken Photography
3 Replies
2711 Views
Last post May 04, 2014, 13:34
by Click Images
0 Replies
1220 Views
Last post January 28, 2015, 12:06
by ShadySue

Sponsors

Microstock Poll Results