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Author Topic: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!  (Read 35021 times)

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ultimagina

« Reply #150 on: April 06, 2015, 11:10 »
-2
... personally i'm a fan of mixed economies like actual China but at the same time having lived in china and in the rest of asia i'm fully aware that what the price to pay for the actual chinese economy will be very high sooner or later when the bubble explodes
Quote

Exactly! how can you be a fan of a ticking bomb?

Quote
if a tourist go in Detroit he will be hardly impressed by the fruits of american capitalism ...
I'm with you, but you have to be aware that Detroit has been destroyed by exactly the same failed policies debated in this thread. The American capitalism, at least the one that you have in mind, has been forgotten by the Detroit law makers who offered freebies from borrowed money only to get re- and re-elected again until the bubble exploded.
 


Uncle Pete

« Reply #151 on: April 06, 2015, 11:25 »
+3
Agree that things are potentially going soft and weak again, but not as bad as it was when someone could walk in, no proof, claim they had all kinds of income and get a home loan - based on a lie. The lenders were making the loans and the bankers paid to "make loans" which were then sold off.

It was similar to a pyramid scheme with the lenders, playing it off on the bigger banks.

Also true, we are the ones who end up paying for these schemes.

Myself? Haven't had a car loan since 1988, and I bought this shack I live in, after jumping through flaming hoops, being inspected like I was asking to have dinner with the President. Bought the house, 30% down in February of 2013, took until August to get the bank loan approved.

Making it a little easier wouldn't hurt, but lowering the standards is 100% wrong!

Giving loans to people who can't afford them is what caused the collapse, and if that's the way it's going again. I'm with you. Danger ahead.



Not - They are going in for a second round of * our pockets dry, and guess who will pay for the bail outs.


I think this thread was about minimum wage. Sorry if I have gone off track. But it's all about economics and politics in the end.

« Reply #152 on: April 06, 2015, 11:30 »
0
It is also a fact that, during the inter-war period, several Eastern European economies, part of the "free market" world back then, were very competitive. Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc had better economies than Spain, Greece, Ireland, Italy or Portugal.
Only the Russian imposed communism, centralized planing and disregard for private property, brought all these economies to their knees.

As for immigration, yes, this definitely helps the economy. But the economy has first to be attractive and healthy, for immigrants do take their chances and come in and contribute to further growth. Who would want to immigrate in an unstable country or were basic freedoms are not respected?


Hmmm...EX Eastern European counties are doing far better than Greece, Spain or Italy nowadays. How do you explain that? It looks like Russian "bad influence" on them wasn't that bad.

Eh, only brave and visionary are ready to risk ALL and to immigrate to unstable countries. Who would think that first immigrants to the USA would do so well in the end....Here is the list, according to WSJ, take a leap and move to one of these places!
 8)
http://graphics.wsj.com/documents/frontier-markets-map/
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 11:38 by KnowYourOnions »

« Reply #153 on: April 06, 2015, 11:41 »
0

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.

Any guesses who's quote this is?

Great quote!  It sounded familiar, but kuddos to Batman and Ultimagaina for creditiing it to Socrates in The Dialogues of Plato.  Its been more than 30 years since I read it, and at the time it definitely applied to me.
Except, pixelbytes (and I'm sorry about this) it isn't in Plato. (Of course, if you can point to the specific lines I will eat some humble pie).

No pie for you.  As I said, it has been over 30 years since I read Plato, so i do not claim any expertise on the subject.  Perhaps if the quote is attributed to Socrates, you would care to name the source?

ultimagina

« Reply #154 on: April 06, 2015, 12:02 »
-3
Hmmm...EX Eastern European counties are doing far better than Greece, Spain or Italy nowadays. How do you explain that? It looks like Russian "bad influence" on them wasn't that bad.

It is true that Greece is in trouble, exactly because their government has borrowed way beyond their payback capabilities (why did Greece organize those Olympic Games?), nevertheless see this table showing the comparison between 1929 and 2010:
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 13:51 by ultimagaina »

ultimagina

« Reply #155 on: April 06, 2015, 13:13 »
-3
With no minimum wages you can always say if someone don't want to work for 2$ per hour, you can find others that want to.

Let's imagine this hypothetical scenario: The US government decides that microstockers are not treated fairly when they get 25c/download.

Then a law is issued forcing the agencies to pay their contributors with the equivalent of 2$/hour, minimum (I don't even dare to say $15/hour)

2$/hour  x 176h/month = $352/month minimum for each contributor working with a given agency.

What do you think will happen?

All the agencies will have to "fire" 80-95% of their contributors (those who don't meet the new standard).
The agencies will have to increase the prices for what will be left of their stock, to be able to keep on board as many contributors as possible.

Big customers will get less photos to chose from, being forced to pay more for lower quality or they will have to increase prices themselves by hiring dedicated photographers.

A lot of small bloggers will not be able to afford the new prices and the sales volume will drop for those contributors who stayed with the agency..
The small bloggers will lose their audience, and the ripple effect will continue, The advertiser revenue will drop, and so on.
123RF, DT, Pond5 and other smaller agencies will go bust, leaving the microstock in the hands of a couple of big sharks with monopolistic behavior.
The microstock industry will fall in a deep recession.

Doesn't it sound like a mini-bubble?

This new artificial law will deprive all contributors, who are ready to work for less than $352/month/agency, from their modest additional income. And we know that there are a lot of beginners just happy to meet the minimum monthly threshold.

At a bigger scale this is what happens when minimum wage laws are artificially imposed

« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 14:09 by ultimagaina »

« Reply #156 on: April 06, 2015, 13:22 »
-3
Giving loans to people who can't afford them is what caused the collapse, and if that's the way it's going again. I'm with you. Danger ahead.
If banks didn't give loans to people who can't afford them, THEY WOULDN'T BE WRITING MANY LOANS! Because most people today can't really afford a home loan, when their employers keep cutting back their hours, wages and benefits!

PaulieWalnuts

  • We Have Exciting News For You
« Reply #157 on: April 06, 2015, 13:49 »
+1
Giving loans to people who can't afford them is what caused the collapse, and if that's the way it's going again. I'm with you. Danger ahead.
If banks didn't give loans to people who can't afford them, THEY WOULDN'T BE WRITING MANY LOANS! Because most people today can't really afford a home loan, when their employers keep cutting back their hours, wages and benefits!

I don't follow your logic. Instead of writing 100 loans for a $500,000 house a person can't afford wouldn't they be writing 100 loans for a $200,000 house a person can afford?

And that's the problem, really. If the minimum cost of a house in that area is $200,000 and the person can only afford a $100,000 house, what's the answer? Have the government force businesses to increase wages so that person can buy a a $200,000 house? Force already overburnered taxpayers to cough up more money to provide subsidies for a person to buy a $200,000 who can only afford a $100,000 house?

I have houses, townhouses, and condos in my town that are $75,000. I'm sure in other areas of the country there are less expensive houses. Move. If you can't afford to buy a house, who says you need to buy one? There are plenty of excellent affordable rental options.  Maybe people should live where they can afford instead of forcing the community to financially support them. And if they dont like the places where they can afford to live they should get used to it or do something for themselves so they can earn more money to live where they prefer.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 14:33 by PaulieWalnuts »

« Reply #158 on: April 06, 2015, 14:05 »
+1

Unfortunately, your claim about slavery being one of the reason behind the prosperity of the "developed economies" comes straight from the communist party manual.

Mind you that slavery was widespread in Africa itself (and to some extend it still is, in some areas).
It didn't help African countries to become prosperous.
Even if the communist party manual doesn't tell it to you

As for immigration, yes, this definitely helps the economy. But the economy has first to be attractive and healthy, for immigrants do take their chances and come in and contribute to further growth. Who would want to immigrate in an unstable country or were basic freedoms are not respected?

First of all, it looks like you are extremely obsessed with communism. I was 6 years old when it was all over in my country (even in the last 10 years, or 4 years before my birth, it wasn't communism at all anymore), and none of my parents were ever in any kind of communist party. So telling me what communist told me is offensive and funny in the same time. Even more, when I was growing up, everything about communism was absolutely negatively presented in culture, school, everywhere, because my country was in war with ex communist.

From my facts, you change the story to communism, because you don't have any answers.

About slavery in Africa, for who does those slaves worked for? For African people or for colonialist? Where that money go?

But I don't want to change this topic to that. I want to tell you that you really dont have much clue what is going on in this part of world.

If your absolutely free economy with no minimum wages or any rights to workers ever come true, we will see slavery again, working for food and bed, big fish (companies) eating smaller ones and we will see one corporation or one family own entire world or something like that. That sounds fair to you?

I would really like to know what books did you read about situation in Eastern Europe but I would not ask you I already know it was from the cold-war times and from western authors. It's the big problem when one side of the story some want to present as facts.

Also, gypsies in my country had more rights compared to african american people in USA in the same period of history.




« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 14:09 by panicAttack »

ultimagina

« Reply #159 on: April 06, 2015, 14:25 »
0
Quote
From my facts, you change the story to communism, because you don't have any answers.

About slavery in Africa, for who does those slaves worked for? For African people or for colonialist? Where that money go?

FYI, they were enslaved by other African tribes, it was common practice even before the colonialists arrived.
Moreover there was a heavy slave trade on the eastern side of Africa, conducted by middle eastern countries.

Quote
I want to tell you that you really dont have much clue what is going on in this part of world.

I would really like to know what books did you read about situation in Eastern Europe but I would not ask you I already know it was from the cold-war times and from western authors. It's the big problem when one side of the story some want to present as facts.

As I said, I do have, and even more than you think. You make assumptions about me and about the books I might have read, instead of focusing on ideas.

Quote
Also, gypsies in my country had more rights compared to african american people in USA in the same period of history.


Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania
or this:
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies.html

because this "nasty" history is often omitted from all those "patriotic" history books.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 14:52 by ultimagaina »

ultimagina

« Reply #160 on: April 06, 2015, 14:28 »
0
double post. sorry.

Edit: Let me use it to recap, why it is now about slavery in Africa :) since Semmick Photo wonders, about it, below :)

Seattle imposed minimum wages -> the government should tackle the "corporate greed" -> link to what happened in other countries where similar government imposed "solutions" failed big time -> justification of the free market economies success through slavery and immigration -> and here we show that slavery was, unfortunately, not specific to US or the developed countries only.

:)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 14:48 by ultimagaina »

Semmick Photo

« Reply #161 on: April 06, 2015, 14:28 »
+2
Wasnt this thread about minimum wage in Seattle? I am seeing slavery in Africa being discussed now  :o

« Reply #162 on: April 06, 2015, 14:44 »
0
FYI
Tens of thousands of workers in Seattle are getting a boost in their paychecks starting Wednesday as the city's new minimum wage kicks in, rising to $11 for most workers.

It's the first stage of a law that eventually will raise the city's minimum wage to $15 an hour. It's being phased in more quickly for big companies than small ones.

Seattle's previous minimum wage was $9.47, the same as the Washington state minimum wage.

Local companies have different strategies for dealing with the increased wage. Some are passing the buck on to customers, but others are not.

KOMO News spoke with managers at two Seattle restaurants who say they'll make the higher wage work - with some creativity.

At Ivar's Salmon House in Wallingford, menu prices will be 21 percent higher than before. But to balance, the restaurant will no longer encourage tipping - and is paying minimum wage workers a full $15 an hour - $4 more than required.


US states minimum wage chart is here:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-minimum-wage-chart.aspx#1

EU net average monthly wage  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

« Reply #163 on: April 06, 2015, 15:22 »
0

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania
or this:
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies.html

because this "nasty" history is often omitted from all those "patriotic" history books.


Abolished in Romania the same time as it was in USA, and from my country, it was abolished in year 1214.  Reverse google it so you can find out of what country I'm saying. Much before Columbus or Amerigo Vespucci even discovered America.
 
Read this: if wikipedia is your best source, I'm out of discussion.

Because this "nasty" history is still today omitted from all those "patriotic" books and especially the movies! ;)

Cya!






ultimagina

« Reply #164 on: April 06, 2015, 16:09 »
+2

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania
or this:
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies.html

because this "nasty" history is often omitted from all those "patriotic" history books.


Abolished in Romania the same time as it was in USA, and from my country, it was abolished in year 1214.  Reverse google it so you can find out of what country I'm saying. Much before Columbus or Amerigo Vespucci even discovered America.
 
Read this: if wikipedia is your best source, I'm out of discussion.

Because this "nasty" history is still today omitted from all those "patriotic" books and especially the movies! ;)

Cya!


You are funny! :) Kuddos to the Town of Korčula!

Since there are plenty of poor countries where slavery has been common practice for centuries, it will only be fair from you, (before saying cya ;) ), to revisit your logic about slavery being the reason behind the developed countries' success (instead of a sustainable economical model, back-up by technological progress).

To a certain extent it is the other way around: the economical success and technological progress made even the free brute manual labor too expensive.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 16:15 by ultimagaina »

« Reply #165 on: April 06, 2015, 16:26 »
+1

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.

Any guesses who's quote this is?

Great quote!  It sounded familiar, but kuddos to Batman and Ultimagaina for creditiing it to Socrates in The Dialogues of Plato.  Its been more than 30 years since I read it, and at the time it definitely applied to me.
Except, pixelbytes (and I'm sorry about this) it isn't in Plato. (Of course, if you can point to the specific lines I will eat some humble pie).

No pie for you.  As I said, it has been over 30 years since I read Plato, so i do not claim any expertise on the subject.  Perhaps if the quote is attributed to Socrates, you would care to name the source?
Obviously, nothing can be attributed to Socrates, since he didn't write anything for posterity. It's not in anything old, it's been made up recently and falsely attributed to old guys.

« Reply #166 on: April 06, 2015, 16:32 »
0

You are funny! :) Kuddos to the Town of Korčula!

Since there are plenty of poor countries where slavery has been common practice for centuries, it will only be fair from you, (before saying cya ;) ), to revisit your logic about slavery being the reason behind the developed countries' success (instead of a sustainable economical model).

To a certain extent it is the other way around: the economical success and technological progress made even the free brute manual labor too expensive.

;)

I never said it was the only reason but it helped in some way, also I never said communism or socialism are better systems, far from that, they are/were worse and history is proof of that. But there is no real and complete democracy nor real neoliberal capitalism at all, and also I said I think it is even better that country we are paying our taxes for, take care in some way of minimum rights for workers.

There are/were many private companies here that haven't payed their workers for several months, desperate people continues to work cause it was told to them it will be next month, next, next and so on... There is new law recently (my English isn't the best) but if you don't pay your workers for some period, goodbye to your company, and with money from sold company properties it is able to pay workers what can be payed.

It need to be some kind of justice/law/order.

Goodbye, better to start working and shooting, you can't change my mind nor I can change yours. This is wasting time arguing. This is Internet in it's best

« Reply #167 on: April 06, 2015, 16:32 »
+1
Yes I'm sure. It's a document issued by the swedish police. Is that reliable enough?
Now good luck finding a single Guardian article about it.

The introduction to the police document (via google translate) says: "In Sweden , there are currently 55 geographic areas where local criminal networks is considered to have a negative impact on the local community . The areas are spread across 22 cities - from big cities to small towns and is regarded as socio- economically disadvantaged . The vast criminal law covers of the local community appears to be linked to the social context in the areas of rather than on the willingness of criminals to take control and auditing in the local community ."
That doesn't seem like an admission of no-go areas, more of a guide to areas where more action is needed. However, as you presumably read Swedish and have read the report you refer to, could you point me to the section of the report that admits these are "no go areas" and I can google-translate from the original for myself?
I like to check the basis of unexpected assertions for myself, in line with Sagan's mantra that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

Ok, let's take a closer look:

"Frequently crime among the local criminals in areas including open drug trafficking, criminal settlements which manifests itself in serious violence on public places, various forms of extortion and unlawful influence and acting out dissatisfaction with society. All of the above expressions manifests public criminal power and become a reminder of what the criminal actors are capable of. This along with active pressure on the local community in the form of threats, violence and extortion assumed to be the basis for the fear police perceives in the local community. The fear manifests itself in that it is difficult to get people to participate in the legal process against the local criminals.

Development of the areas has led to difficulties in investigating crimes. Police have also in other respects difficulty working in these areas, including due to the environment reacting against the police in providing assistance or by attacking police vehicles. Police difficulty in curbing the problems mentioned can be a contributing factor to the public in several cases understands that it is the criminals who control the area procedures. Such a perception may contest the role of the police as a guarantor of security, and reduces the public's tendency to turn to the police. The situation in these areas is worrying and has in several cases meant that the police have not been able to fulfill its task."

---

Interesting enough, they never mention the word immigration or muslim for fear of appearing racist. Reminds me of Rotherham scandal. The immigration agenda is here to stay and we can already see the declining society and values in western countries. US and Western Europe will become uninhabitable in a few more decades, and the media is playing a huge role into brainwashing people to accept it with their mouths shut.
I take it then, that you are withdrawing your original assertion that Swedish police officially admit that there are 58 no-go areas outside their control in the country, since the stuff you quote makes it clear that they are engaged in law-enforcement in those areas. Instead you seem to be  asserting that there are 58 areas in Sweden with very serious social/law enforcement issues. Wow! Fancy that!

« Reply #168 on: April 06, 2015, 17:01 »
0
Wasnt this thread about minimum wage in Seattle? I am seeing slavery in Africa being discussed now  :o

+100

« Reply #169 on: April 06, 2015, 17:44 »
0

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.

Any guesses who's quote this is?

Great quote!  It sounded familiar, but kuddos to Batman and Ultimagaina for creditiing it to Socrates in The Dialogues of Plato.  Its been more than 30 years since I read it, and at the time it definitely applied to me.
Except, pixelbytes (and I'm sorry about this) it isn't in Plato. (Of course, if you can point to the specific lines I will eat some humble pie).

No pie for you.  As I said, it has been over 30 years since I read Plato, so i do not claim any expertise on the subject.  Perhaps if the quote is attributed to Socrates, you would care to name the source?
Obviously, nothing can be attributed to Socrates, since he didn't write anything for posterity. It's not in anything old, it's been made up recently and falsely attributed to old guys.

Ah. One of those situations.  Not having posted the quote myself, I was only agreeing with its logic.

Hobostocker

    This user is banned.
« Reply #170 on: April 06, 2015, 23:48 »
0
If a bank didn't take money off those people, a magic bean seller would.

exactly, see all the scams targeting people with "bad credit".

Hobostocker

    This user is banned.
« Reply #171 on: April 07, 2015, 00:02 »
+2
Giving loans to people who can't afford them is what caused the collapse, and if that's the way it's going again. I'm with you. Danger ahead.

yes but housing is still a PRIMARY need for everyone and yet in the West it's still sold like it was a luxury item.
THIS is the root of all evils.

the government owns the land and doesn't need to pay taxation to itself, it could build 1000s of cheap 20-30K $ council homes for the poors like they do every time there's a calamity or a earthquake, but nooo the housing mafia won't ever allow it and the politicians are owned by the bankers and the landlords.

so we're all doomed to pay mortgages for 20-30 yrs now just to get a roof on out head, this is ridicolous and will bring the fall down of the whole system sooner or later, see the situation in China where the housing bubble is reaching the point of non-return.

the cost of housing the is the single key factor impacting the economies of all the first world countries, salaries are high because rents and mortgages are high, inflation in high because of booming housing prices.

it's funny that we call ourselves "first world" when with the average salaries you can barely expect to buy a small home, a car, and having one single baby, all in exchange of a lifetime of work ... and you could lose it all overnight because of divorce or somebody suing you.

the first world is just like the third world but with bells and whistles.

Hobostocker

    This user is banned.
« Reply #172 on: April 07, 2015, 00:16 »
0
Exactly! how can you be a fan of a ticking bomb?

I'm with you, but you have to be aware that Detroit has been destroyed by exactly the same failed policies debated in this thread. The American capitalism, at least the one that you have in mind, has been forgotten by the Detroit law makers who offered freebies from borrowed money only to get re- and re-elected again until the bubble exploded.

well, i say that mixed economies are the least evil option because i've seen it first hand in europe in the '70s and '80s and also now in china and in a few other less known cases in asia.

nothing will ever stop the horrible injustices going on in the world but when the government at least guarantees the BASIC human needs like housing, education, water, heating, all for a fair price, well that's certainly a step forward compared to a mercyless system like the US economic model.

detroit leaders exploiting democracy only shows that democracy is a failed concept, in china they gave death penalty to many corrupt politicians in the last 15 yrs, including the biggest crook of all, the mayor of Shanghai ...

Hobostocker

    This user is banned.
« Reply #173 on: April 07, 2015, 00:27 »
0
A lot of small bloggers will not be able to afford the new prices and the sales volume will drop for those contributors who stayed with the agency..
The small bloggers will lose their audience, and the ripple effect will continue, The advertiser revenue will drop, and so on.

not a single one of the small bloggers could afford to pay for a 10$ stock image in each article anyway.
but this means their business model is not sustainable unless they blog in text-only or stick with free or CC-licenced images, how is it our fault ? and why should we be concerned ? they're not out potential customers, and actually are the ones who steal images left and right giving nothing back.

same logic for enslaved underpaid guys grilling burger for minimum wages : either they accept earning a pittance or they go in street begging for money, which is probably much more profitable, and let burger king and mcdonalds figure out a solution for the sudden "lack of talent" ... again not my problem and by the way let the "market" fix itself as they say ...

grilling burgers and cleaning toilets is a sh-it job ... much harder and dirtier than an easy white collar job, i don't know in the US but in europe many blue collars are paid fairly exactly because no one want to do heavy jobs, i know people in construction jobs making more than a doctor and same for plumbers, electricians, and other skilled crafts where there's a lot of money going on.


« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 00:31 by Hobostocker »

Justanotherphotographer

« Reply #174 on: April 07, 2015, 06:32 »
+2
Quote from: BaldricksTrousers link=topic=24768.msg414693#msg414693
Obviously, nothing can be attributed to Socrates, since he didn't write anything for posterity. It's not in anything old, it's been made up recently and falsely attributed to old guys.

I think it is an attempt to paraphrase Plato on democratic man, but it is a mis-quote. Classical historian Peter Jones quoted the actual text on the History Extra podcast recently if anyone wants to search it out.


 

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