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Author Topic: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!  (Read 17513 times)

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« Reply #175 on: April 07, 2015, 08:28 »
+3
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
http://tinyurl.com/37q963


Worked out good for me. I was able to buy a foreclosure for $75,000 in 2011, remodel it for about $15,000 and now I'm selling it for $150,000 after 2.5 years. All tax free because I used it as my primary residence and reinvesting it in a new, better house.


Your attitude simply amazes me. The only reason the mortgage crisis worked for you was luck. If you'd bought that house 5 years earlier, it would now be worth less than what you paid for it. But heck, it worked for you, so eff the suckers who could afford a house before you could.


It's horrible and unfortunate when someone loses their house. It's your home. It's your life. Here in the US a major reason for the housing crisis was people buying homes they couldn't afford in the first place.

Where I live a large percentage of foreclosures were "McMansion" $300,000US+ luxury homes. Before I went to buy a house I ran the numbers for my expenses, income, savings, etc, and figured out what I could afford. When I went to the bank the loan officer told me "you qualify for $XXX,XXX.". It was twice as much as the number I came up with. I told him "yeah, I qualify for that, but there's no way I could afford it." I'd be in foreclosure within months. But plenty of people bought houses based on what they qualified for which wasn't what they could afford. Why? Maybe some greed of wanting a nice house. Maybe ignorance not knowing what they could afford. Maybe poor planing and not having enough savings in the event one member of the household lost their job. Maybe just horrendously bad fortune.

I'm sure few people will agree with what I'm about to say because this is probably considered "old school" mentality. In my opinion we are increasingly moving toward a society where there's little self-accountability. When someone does something wrong or makes a bad decision it's someone elses fault. Commit an armed robbery and get shot by the convenience store owner? It's the store owners fault. Can't get a job? It's because somebody else isn't providing the jobs. Don't make enough money to live in an ultra expensive city? It's the business's fault and the government needs to force them to give higher pay.

I believe your fortune should only equal what you're capable of achieving. But we're increasingly headed toward a society of penalizing the hard workers and rewarding people who make bad decisions, perform poorly, or expect hand outs. The news is constantly reporting about the move toward only rich and poor. Should we be surprised that the middle class is disappearing?

So who's fault is it when someone buys a house they can't afford? Banks fault? Seller's fault? Foreclosure buyer's fault? Nobody is responsible for their decisions anymore.


Sure there are people who fit your description who lost their homes because of greed and poor judgement.

However there are many more who lost their hard won homes, business's, jobs, retirement moneys etc. through no fault of their own. If you were unfortunate enough to live in the states that lost huge numbers of jobs/business's and or had high home values that dropped like a rock it was not as simple as you portray.

It is easy to judge people when you don't know their circumstances and easy to pat yourself on the back while thinking that you work harder and make better choices, when that might not be the case.

It is more difficult to walk in another persons shoes or to have empathy for their plight.

What happen all over the world is a tragedy, the sub prime crisis was not just an American story it spread to many countries. If you look at American numbers alone, more than 7 million Americans lost their homes and roughly 30 percent of the money for all home purchases went to investors and Wall Street.

Housing prices were driven to all time highs thanks to new financial products spun on Wall Street. Those new products ended up being spread far and wide and were included in pension funds, hedge funds and international governments. Most of those products ended up being worth absolutely nothing and many people lost their pensions through no fault of their own.

When building ground to a halt so did the high paying jobs in the home building, lending, escrow, furniture and appliance markets. For every job lost in the building industry 7 others lose their jobs so the problem spread far an wide especially in the growth states and there were record numbers of small business bit the dust, many of whom had been successful for 20 or more years.

More than 2,000,000 of those foreclosed homes are now in the hands of some sort of investors (i.e., big money, foreign money, etc).  There have been permanent structural changes as a result of a stunning 7 million foreclosures.

Those who should have been held accountable have not been. Whats more they are doing it again.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 08:30 by gbalex »


ultimagina

« Reply #176 on: April 07, 2015, 09:24 »
0

This is too bad, indeed. But everybody must understand that the root cause of all this evil is the government intervention. The government has "printed" money to cover-up the excessive borrowing required after too many unsustainable expenses.

As mentioned in an earlier post, the firsts one to benefit from this flow of new money are the banks. Banks can buy assets while the prices are still low.
The next ones in line to benefit are the big corporations, the first ones to work with those banks. Before the new money reaches common people, the prices have already caught-up with the new money, so the common people see their hard earned money vanishing through inflation. This causes social problems, so the same government issues new money and announces minimum wage increases to please their voters.

When the market is flooded with new money, the credit is cheap and  the banks have nothing to lose. Credit is offered to anyone.

The cycle continues, until the bubble bursts.

So all evil starts with the governments covering up the failed policies and buying their votes with artificial money.

Stop asking your governments for free money because, make no mistake: they will give it to you!

So you have your share of responsibility when you ask for artificial wage increases and vote the politicians ready to give it to you from money made out of thin air!


Uncle Pete

« Reply #177 on: April 07, 2015, 09:54 »
+2
You are both correct. Some people went in way over their heads, buying giant homes they couldn't afford, speculating. Also the bankers and investors were just far to happy to allow people to be foolish. Plus there were some economic changes which buried some other people.

There's not just one answer.


Sure there are people who fit your description who lost their homes because of greed and poor judgement.

However there are many more who lost their hard won homes, business's, jobs, retirement moneys etc. through no fault of their own. If you were unfortunate enough to live in the states that lost huge numbers of jobs/business's and or had high home values that dropped like a rock it was not as simple as you portray.

(clipped - but you are describing many Mid-West industrial states)

Housing prices were driven to all time highs thanks to new financial products spun on Wall Street. Those new products ended up being spread far and wide and were included in pension funds, hedge funds and international governments. Most of those products ended up being worth absolutely nothing and many people lost their pensions through no fault of their own.
 
(clip not that I disagree with one word of what you wrote)

Those who should have been held accountable have not been. Whats more they are doing it again.

Lucky me, I just lost everything, most of the business and my home, but I didn't have an upside-down $300 mortgage in order to do it.  8) Just loss of income, accounts, sales and customers.

I still say the lenders and Wall Street are the problem, giving money to people who can't afford to repay it. Doesn't matter much who's to blame, we all end up paying for this, while some of the fat cats, walk away with a bonus for "job well done".

« Reply #178 on: April 07, 2015, 10:24 »
+1
This is kind of an excistential discussion.
It is touching the mechanisms in society, and I have a few opinions, that I will not post here.

but I would like to add a few things:
You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Thats a sad thing, to feed your greed on other people, and it happens a lot.

Now in Europe, we have been through some kind of evolution, from religious persecution to labour assotiations with endless wars in the background. Royalty and emperors have fallen, and are extinct now, but since we used up all our natural resources 1000 years ago we have found ways to control the exploitation of humans, else its simply not sustainable, we have had time to learn that.
But you guys in the New World havent, you sound like infants in a kindergarden, there are things that are not in your vocabulary, you are still in the exploit nature ot your neigbour faze. But you might just yet be coming our of it.

I live in a country where healthcare and education (universities) is free for everyone, and has been for at least 50 years.
That is good.
We have free healthcare, education and wellfare, meaning you get a place to live and money to support yourself if you cant otherwise.
So we have a strong net of security spread out underneat us. And it is a good thing, because although it costs in taxes, it evens out the differences and make people yeild more and be happier in the long run.
A good and simple point is that when people are educated and healthy, they can work better and produce more.
And that we do.
Cheers.

Shelma1

« Reply #179 on: April 07, 2015, 10:33 »
+2

You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Don't be silly. We've been exploiting humans AND nature ever since we came over from Europe hundreds of years ago.

« Reply #180 on: April 07, 2015, 12:38 »
+1
This is kind of an excistential discussion.
It is touching the mechanisms in society, and I have a few opinions, that I will not post here.

but I would like to add a few things:
You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Thats a sad thing, to feed your greed on other people, and it happens a lot.

Now in Europe, we have been through some kind of evolution, from religious persecution to labour assotiations with endless wars in the background. Royalty and emperors have fallen, and are extinct now, but since we used up all our natural resources 1000 years ago we have found ways to control the exploitation of humans, else its simply not sustainable, we have had time to learn that.
But you guys in the New World havent, you sound like infants in a kindergarden, there are things that are not in your vocabulary, you are still in the exploit nature ot your neigbour faze. But you might just yet be coming our of it.

I live in a country where healthcare and education (universities) is free for everyone, and has been for at least 50 years.
That is good.
We have free healthcare, education and wellfare, meaning you get a place to live and money to support yourself if you cant otherwise.
So we have a strong net of security spread out underneat us. And it is a good thing, because although it costs in taxes, it evens out the differences and make people yeild more and be happier in the long run.
A good and simple point is that when people are educated and healthy, they can work better and produce more.
And that we do.
Cheers.

All that is fine in a monocultural society with a tiny, tiny population. Almost half the states in the U.S. have a larger population than Denmark. The United States has five times as many illegal immigrants as Demark's entire population.

So you really can't compare. It's not the same. All those things you say you get for free aren't free. Someone else pays for them. Our tradition and culture leans more toward self-reliance rather than reliance on central authority. Our ancestors left the kings and tyrants of Europe to build a new home for themselves without the help of central authority. That's how we evolved. I'd personally rather keep it that way. I know others will disagree, but I think we're better off.

« Reply #181 on: April 07, 2015, 13:36 »
+1
This is kind of an excistential discussion.
It is touching the mechanisms in society, and I have a few opinions, that I will not post here.

but I would like to add a few things:
You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Thats a sad thing, to feed your greed on other people, and it happens a lot.

Now in Europe, we have been through some kind of evolution, from religious persecution to labour assotiations with endless wars in the background. Royalty and emperors have fallen, and are extinct now, but since we used up all our natural resources 1000 years ago we have found ways to control the exploitation of humans, else its simply not sustainable, we have had time to learn that.
But you guys in the New World havent, you sound like infants in a kindergarden, there are things that are not in your vocabulary, you are still in the exploit nature ot your neigbour faze. But you might just yet be coming our of it.

I live in a country where healthcare and education (universities) is free for everyone, and has been for at least 50 years.
That is good.
We have free healthcare, education and wellfare, meaning you get a place to live and money to support yourself if you cant otherwise.
So we have a strong net of security spread out underneat us. And it is a good thing, because although it costs in taxes, it evens out the differences and make people yeild more and be happier in the long run.
A good and simple point is that when people are educated and healthy, they can work better and produce more.
And that we do.
Cheers.

All that is fine in a monocultural society with a tiny, tiny population. Almost half the states in the U.S. have a larger population than Denmark. The United States has five times as many illegal immigrants as Demark's entire population.

So you really can't compare. It's not the same. All those things you say you get for free aren't free. Someone else pays for them. Our tradition and culture leans more toward self-reliance rather than reliance on central authority. Our ancestors left the kings and tyrants of Europe to build a new home for themselves without the help of central authority. That's how we evolved. I'd personally rather keep it that way. I know others will disagree, but I think we're better off.

You can blame your government for that. A solution could be buying plane tickets to Denmark for your exploited illegal populations. They would be much better off living in a country with and an enlightened population that operates on a higher plane. I am sure they will all appreciate living in a country that offers a strong net of security with free healthcare, education and wellfare to all of its inhabitants.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 13:41 by gbalex »

No Free Lunch

« Reply #182 on: April 07, 2015, 14:19 »
-1
This is kind of an excistential discussion.
It is touching the mechanisms in society, and I have a few opinions, that I will not post here.

but I would like to add a few things:
You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Thats a sad thing, to feed your greed on other people, and it happens a lot.

Now in Europe, we have been through some kind of evolution, from religious persecution to labour assotiations with endless wars in the background. Royalty and emperors have fallen, and are extinct now, but since we used up all our natural resources 1000 years ago we have found ways to control the exploitation of humans, else its simply not sustainable, we have had time to learn that.
But you guys in the New World havent, you sound like infants in a kindergarden, there are things that are not in your vocabulary, you are still in the exploit nature ot your neigbour faze. But you might just yet be coming our of it.

I live in a country where healthcare and education (universities) is free for everyone, and has been for at least 50 years.
That is good.
We have free healthcare, education and wellfare, meaning you get a place to live and money to support yourself if you cant otherwise.
So we have a strong net of security spread out underneat us. And it is a good thing, because although it costs in taxes, it evens out the differences and make people yeild more and be happier in the long run.
A good and simple point is that when people are educated and healthy, they can work better and produce more.
And that we do.
Cheers.

All that is fine in a monocultural society with a tiny, tiny population. Almost half the states in the U.S. have a larger population than Denmark. The United States has five times as many illegal immigrants as Demark's entire population.

So you really can't compare. It's not the same. All those things you say you get for free aren't free. Someone else pays for them. Our tradition and culture leans more toward self-reliance rather than reliance on central authority. Our ancestors left the kings and tyrants of Europe to build a new home for themselves without the help of central authority. That's how we evolved. I'd personally rather keep it that way. I know others will disagree, but I think we're better off.

You can blame your government for that. A solution could be buying plane tickets to Denmark for your exploited illegal populations. They would be much better off living in a country with and an enlightened population that operates on a higher plane. I am sure they will all appreciate living in a country that offers a strong net of security with free healthcare, education and wellfare to all of its inhabitants.

There already is a country that treats everyone the same and all get medical and retirement benefits - China!

« Reply #183 on: April 07, 2015, 14:34 »
+4
This is kind of an excistential discussion.
It is touching the mechanisms in society, and I have a few opinions, that I will not post here.

but I would like to add a few things:
You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Thats a sad thing, to feed your greed on other people, and it happens a lot.

Now in Europe, we have been through some kind of evolution, from religious persecution to labour assotiations with endless wars in the background. Royalty and emperors have fallen, and are extinct now, but since we used up all our natural resources 1000 years ago we have found ways to control the exploitation of humans, else its simply not sustainable, we have had time to learn that.
But you guys in the New World havent, you sound like infants in a kindergarden, there are things that are not in your vocabulary, you are still in the exploit nature ot your neigbour faze. But you might just yet be coming our of it.

I live in a country where healthcare and education (universities) is free for everyone, and has been for at least 50 years.
That is good.
We have free healthcare, education and wellfare, meaning you get a place to live and money to support yourself if you cant otherwise.
So we have a strong net of security spread out underneat us. And it is a good thing, because although it costs in taxes, it evens out the differences and make people yeild more and be happier in the long run.
A good and simple point is that when people are educated and healthy, they can work better and produce more.
And that we do.
Cheers.

All that is fine in a monocultural society with a tiny, tiny population. Almost half the states in the U.S. have a larger population than Denmark. The United States has five times as many illegal immigrants as Demark's entire population.

So you really can't compare. It's not the same. All those things you say you get for free aren't free. Someone else pays for them. Our tradition and culture leans more toward self-reliance rather than reliance on central authority. Our ancestors left the kings and tyrants of Europe to build a new home for themselves without the help of central authority. That's how we evolved. I'd personally rather keep it that way. I know others will disagree, but I think we're better off.

You can blame your government for that. A solution could be buying plane tickets to Denmark for your exploited illegal populations. They would be much better off living in a country with and an enlightened population that operates on a higher plane. I am sure they will all appreciate living in a country that offers a strong net of security with free healthcare, education and wellfare to all of its inhabitants.

I'm sure Denmark would be able to afford all that stuff if 20 million immigrants were dropped on them.


 

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