Author Topic: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth! (Read 35362 times)

PixelBytes · « **Reply #25 on:** April 02, 2015, 12:20 »

Quote from: No Free Lunch on April 01, 2015, 16:05

I personally know a large pizza store owner that has over $80,000 USD in sales and nets about $25,000 per month and doesn't want to pay his workings over $8 per hour also without any benefits! He drives a fancy 755Li BMW and lives in a 5 million house on the ocean

Yep. The real reason to pay workers pitiful low wages is simple greed. Same thing going on in microstock.

PixelBytes · « **Reply #26 on:** April 02, 2015, 12:24 »

Quote from: Shelma1 on April 02, 2015, 08:19

In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Bravo! Beatifully put! Would give more than+1 if I could.

Nikovsk · « **Reply #27 on:** April 02, 2015, 13:16 »

Quote from: ultimagaina on April 02, 2015, 11:02

Oh you're one of those that believe everything they read on the media...

Multiculturalism has certainly worked well in Sweden:
http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/

cascoly · « **Reply #28 on:** April 02, 2015, 13:27 »

Quote from: Shelma1 on April 01, 2015, 12:35

So the salmon house will now rake in what used to be tips, and pay their servers what is probably substantially less per hour than they made with those before. There's no way they'd change their policy if it was better for their employees than it is for them.

.....

Ivars has always been one of the most progressive employers in the Seattle area

"pay their servers what is probably substantially less per hour than they made with those before"

? they RAISED their pay to $15 per hour

from the ivars website

Quote

•Insurance – We like to make sure that our staff members lead healthy lives outside of work by offering insurance packages based on their position and length of service, including: ◦Medical, dental, and vision insurance
◦Disability and life insurance
◦Supplemental health insurance

•Opportunities for Advancement – At Ivar's, we believe in the potential of all of our employees and do everything we can to help them achieve their career goals. We provide comprehensive training and development and promote from within whenever possible.
•Financial Planning – Many of our employees are not only looking ahead to their workplace future, but also to their financial future. To help with this planning, Ivar's offers a 401(k) Plan, investment planning services, and a Home Ownership Assistance Program

The basics of Ivar’s new policy will go like this: All employees, both tipped waitstaff and non-tipped back-of-house staff, will earn $15 an hour. (Currently, waitstaff make the state minimum wage of $9.47 plus tips, while back-of-house wages range from $12 to $15 without tips, according to Donegan.) Discretionary tipping by customers will be taken away, and instead all waitstaff will receive an 8 percent commission on sales, while back-of-house staffers will receive 9 percent of sales.
...
Ivar’s will not make any changes to employees’ other compensations. The company will continue to offer full benefits to full- and part-time employees, as well as match contributions to 401(k) plans at 50 percent
http://www.thestranger.com/food-and-drink/feature/2015/03/30/21976753/ivars-salmon-house-is-going-tipless

cascoly · « **Reply #29 on:** April 02, 2015, 13:28 »

Quote from: Nikovsk on April 02, 2015, 09:22

There should be no minimum wage, at least in developed countries. Market would adjust itself. If no one is willing to flip burgers, wages would rise. If only we kept low skilled, uneducated immigrants at bay - not the intention of politicians and large corporations that finance them.

but for the fact that the accepted norm now is 5-6% unemployment, so there will always be people who have to take the below-living wages just to stay alive

ultimagina · « **Reply #30 on:** April 02, 2015, 13:36 »

Quote from: Nikovsk on April 02, 2015, 13:16

Quote from: ultimagaina on April 02, 2015, 11:02

Oh you're one of those that believe everything they read on the media...

Multiculturalism has certainly worked well in Sweden:
http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/

Are you sure is not the same thing as the so called "Birmingham no-go zones" or the "Paris no-go zones", frantically advertised by Fox News?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/12/paris-lawsuit-fox-news-reporting-no-go-zones-non-muslims

Not a surprise that they were forced to apologize for their error! Very unusual for Fox News:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/3995699587001/fox-news-apologizes-for-european-muslim-population-errors/?#sp=show-clips

And if your french is good, check this very funny take on the same subject:
http://www.canalplus.fr/c-divertissement/c-le-petit-journal/pid6515-le-petit-journal.html?vid=1197745

Nikovsk · « **Reply #31 on:** April 02, 2015, 13:45 »

Yes I'm sure. It's a document issued by the swedish police. Is that reliable enough?
Now good luck finding a single Guardian article about it.

Shelma1 · « **Reply #32 on:** April 02, 2015, 13:49 »

Quote from: cascoly on April 02, 2015, 13:27

Quote from: Shelma1 on April 01, 2015, 12:35
So the salmon house will now rake in what used to be tips, and pay their servers what is probably substantially less per hour than they made with those before. There's no way they'd change their policy if it was better for their employees than it is for them.

.....

Ivars has always been one of the most progressive employers in the Seattle area

"pay their servers what is probably substantially less per hour than they made with those before" ? they RAISED their pay to $15 per hour

from the ivars website
Quote
•Insurance – We like to make sure that our staff members lead healthy lives outside of work by offering insurance packages based on their position and length of service, including: ◦Medical, dental, and vision insurance
◦Disability and life insurance
◦Supplemental health insurance

•Opportunities for Advancement – At Ivar's, we believe in the potential of all of our employees and do everything we can to help them achieve their career goals. We provide comprehensive training and development and promote from within whenever possible.
•Financial Planning – Many of our employees are not only looking ahead to their workplace future, but also to their financial future. To help with this planning, Ivar's offers a 401(k) Plan, investment planning services, and a Home Ownership Assistance Program

The basics of Ivar’s new policy will go like this: All employees, both tipped waitstaff and non-tipped back-of-house staff, will earn $15 an hour. (Currently, waitstaff make the state minimum wage of $9.47 plus tips, while back-of-house wages range from $12 to $15 without tips, according to Donegan.) Discretionary tipping by customers will be taken away, and instead all waitstaff will receive an 8 percent commission on sales, while back-of-house staffers will receive 9 percent of sales.
...
Ivar’s will not make any changes to employees’ other compensations. The company will continue to offer full benefits to full- and part-time employees, as well as match contributions to 401(k) plans at 50 percent
http://www.thestranger.com/food-and-drink/feature/2015/03/30/21976753/ivars-salmon-house-is-going-tipless

The article you link to points out that servers are now uncertain about their wages there -- and whether they will even continue to make the same amount, not more, remains to be seen.

Also, the restaurant owner helped fund the anti-$15 initiative. And he's not interested in talking to his employees about their wages. "he’s also fine with the possibility that staff may leave because of the new policy: 'If you as a server don’t like the uncertainty of this system and you think you can do better, by earning all of the tips that you’ve earned in the past, and you want to be on your own, that’s okay.'"

michaeldb · « **Reply #33 on:** April 02, 2015, 19:51 »

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 02, 2015, 09:37

Anyone think the Feds should set a minimum commission standard for stock photos artists compensation?

One million dollars. (Why not? If you want more money just pass a law saying that people have to give it to you. We'll all be rich!)

robhainer · « **Reply #34 on:** April 02, 2015, 21:33 »

Quote from: Shelma1 on April 02, 2015, 08:19

In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Sorry. I'm not buying it. It is so easy in this country to get the education and skills needed to make more than minimum wage. There are grants and scholarships all over the place. You don't need a four year degree to have good job skills. In fact, technical school training can sometimes gain you a lot more than a philosophy degree. You can be an auto mechanic or a long haul truck drive and still make a good living.

The problem is people aren't willing to put in the time and effort it takes to make a living wage anymore. If the best you can do is stock shelves at Wal-Mart at age 40, you need to rethink your plan and go back to school.

And I'd hardly consider the owner of a pizza shop an "oligarch." Without people like him, willing to take risks and work hard to get their businesses off the ground, there'd be no jobs at all.

marquixHD · « **Reply #35 on:** April 03, 2015, 06:16 »

Quote from: No Free Lunch on April 01, 2015, 12:25

FYI
Tens of thousands of workers in Seattle are getting a boost in their paychecks starting Wednesday as the city's new minimum wage kicks in, rising to $11 for most workers.

It's the first stage of a law that eventually will raise the city's minimum wage to $15 an hour. It's being phased in more quickly for big companies than small ones.

Seattle's previous minimum wage was $9.47, the same as the Washington state minimum wage.

Local companies have different strategies for dealing with the increased wage. Some are passing the buck on to customers, but others are not.

KOMO News spoke with managers at two Seattle restaurants who say they'll make the higher wage work - with some creativity.

At Ivar's Salmon House in Wallingford, menu prices will be 21 percent higher than before. But to balance, the restaurant will no longer encourage tipping - and is paying minimum wage workers a full $15 an hour - $4 more than required.

yet another move to more government and employer-controlled living (remember that, unlike tips, fixed salaries just so happen to be taxed)...

marquixHD · « **Reply #36 on:** April 03, 2015, 06:20 »

Quote from: robhainer on April 02, 2015, 21:33

Quote from: Shelma1 on April 02, 2015, 08:19
In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Quote
(...)

>And I'd hardly consider the owner of a pizza shop an "oligarch."
me neither

Quote
>Without people like him, willing to take risks and work hard to get their businesses off the ground, there'd be no jobs at all.
you're totally right -- but that's the part mass-media dumbed-down populations tend to forget these days...

Shelma1 · « **Reply #37 on:** April 03, 2015, 08:09 »

Quote from: robhainer on April 02, 2015, 21:33

Quote from: Shelma1 on April 02, 2015, 08:19
In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Sorry. I'm not buying it. It is so easy in this country to get the education and skills needed to make more than minimum wage. There are grants and scholarships all over the place. You don't need a four year degree to have good job skills. In fact, technical school training can sometimes gain you a lot more than a philosophy degree. You can be an auto mechanic or a long haul truck drive and still make a good living.

The problem is people aren't willing to put in the time and effort it takes to make a living wage anymore. If the best you can do is stock shelves at Wal-Mart at age 40, you need to rethink your plan and go back to school.

And I'd hardly consider the owner of a pizza shop an "oligarch." Without people like him, willing to take risks and work hard to get their businesses off the ground, there'd be no jobs at all.

Well, I'm not particularly concerned whether you "buy it" or not. I've stated facts. The cost of living and the cost of education have both risen significantly over the past few decades, and minimum wage has not kept pace. Business owners have therefore been paying less to workers than they should have for the past couple of decades. Even if the minimum wage was increased to $15, it would only bring it up to the level which it should be to keep pace with inflation, and that would not make up for all the wages people have lost over the past couple of decades while they were being underpaid.

When I was college-aged it was possible to work full-time at a minimum wage job and pay your way through college, which is what I did, without student loans, scholarships or financial aid. I took a full course load with a double major and worked 40 hours a week at a convenience store. That's just not possible any more, because the minimum wage has not kept pace with the cost of living or the cost of education.

And of course, it was also possible for me to get into college because I'm a relatively privileged person in this country. I'm white and grew up with two parents in a middle-class town with an excellent public school system near a major metropolitan area (New York). I was born in a big city (New York) so was not intimidated by it.

And no, a pizza shop owner is not an oligarch, but if the business is unsustainable because the owner can't afford to pay his workers, then he "deserves" to go out of business. Does he stiff the pizza oven manufacturers? The furniture manufacturers? His suppliers? His landlord? He pays all those costs despite the fact that they've risen with inflation, and he raises his prices along with inflation. His employees are also a business expense, and paying them should also keep pace with inflation.

No Free Lunch · « **Reply #38 on:** April 03, 2015, 08:20 »

Here is what Seattle businesses did this morning-

SEATTLE -- Dining out in Seattle may mean dishing out more dough.
Restaurants in the Emerald City are tacking on surcharges and increasing prices to accommodate the minimum wage increase that became law on April 1st.

"We wanted to take the most transparent route and put a surcharge on the bill that would allow customers to track what they're paying," said Chris Linker, co-owner and managing partner of Black Bottle. "We wanted to make the commitment that 100 percent of those proceeds would go back to the staff who needs it the most."

The Belltown restaurant started adding a 2 percent "wage equality surcharge" on Wednesday, when the first stage of Seattle's new minimum wage law took effect. The ordinance will eventually raise the city's minimum wage to $15 an hour.

Wednesday's step increased wages to $11 per hour for most workers.

"We can either reduce quality, we can reduce the number of hours that people work and risk losing good people, or we can raise prices," Linker added. "For us, we didn't like any of those options. We're participating in a way we feel is a genuine."

Seattle restaurateur Tom Douglas said he was also planning a similar 2 percent surcharge at his 14 restaurants.

Receipts from the South Lake Union location of Serious Pie and Biscuit showed the surcharge on Thursday. A $5 coffee, for example, had an additional $.08 fee tacked onto it.

"We felt the most competitive and least intrusive is to implement a surcharge equal to the increase in wages until all restaurants in Seattle are on the same playing field," Douglas wrote in the blog post that has since been taken down. "100 percent of this surcharge will be distributed to our staff in either wages or benefits."

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #39 on:** April 03, 2015, 08:27 »

If you run for office, you get my vote. Everyone gets to sell one image for a lifetime of wages and then they become retired...

We work for artistic goals after that, not income.

I told the band that. Instead of playing for $200 a night, just book one job a month for $1600. They wouldn't listen...

Quote from: michaeldb on April 02, 2015, 19:51

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 02, 2015, 09:37
Anyone think the Feds should set a minimum commission standard for stock photos artists compensation?

One million dollars. (Why not? If you want more money just pass a law saying that people have to give it to you. We'll all be rich!)

ultimagina · « **Reply #40 on:** April 03, 2015, 08:59 »

Quote from: Shelma1

Does he stiff the pizza oven manufacturers? The furniture manufacturers? His suppliers? His landlord? He pays all those costs despite the fact that they've risen with inflation, and he raises his prices along with inflation.

Maybe he will switch to cheaper oven/furniture manufacturers dropping the quality of his product. Maybe he will relocate his business in an area with lower wages and costs, thus boosting the unemployment in the cities with minimum wage laws. This is a perverse effect you have to be aware of. Instead of a minimum income, people can end with no income at all.

The same thing goes with the rent control laws. These laws are intended to help low income people but they end acting against their interests.
Since the rent is artificially limited, the landlords don't get enough income to maintain the buildings, the buildings slowly decay and end-up being abandoned (or even burned down for insurance purposes). The quality of the low rent housing drops and eventually it leads to the disappearance of the low rent housing. Instead of cheaper housing, low income people might not get any housing at all.

But rent control laws don't apply to luxurious buildings, so the developers will only invest in this type of housing. The luxurious building development soars in New York City. This is why the average rent goes up much faster than in a city with free market rent. This will drag along all the other costs and prices.
Maximum rent laws drive low income people out of these big cities, forcing them to spend more on commuting, increasing traffic jams, forcing them to rely more and more on help from the government, instead of themselves, etc.

What was once perceived as good law ends up producing the opposite effect.

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #41 on:** April 03, 2015, 09:05 »

Tips are taxed. Employers are required - by law - to track them and report. Ask someone who works in the restaurant or any other service business. USA

Quote from: marquixHD on April 03, 2015, 06:16

yet another move to more government and employer-controlled living (remember that fixed salaries unlike tips just so happen to be taxed)...

cathyslife · « **Reply #42 on:** April 03, 2015, 09:17 »

Sorry, but I will never have any sympathy for a business owner paying himself a huge wage that affords him the ability to own two homes, take 4 trips a year to Europe, drive the best of cars, and pi$$ money away in ways I can't even imagine, all while griping about how he has to pay his employees a measly $11 an hour. Sure, HE/SHE took risks by opening the business, and for that he/she should be able to reap rewards, but while he/she is away, sitting on the beach drinking a pina colada, those employees are still working their a$$e$ off for him, making him even more money.

Seems like once someone starts making a certain amount of money, they feel entitled to treat everyone else like dirt, even though they wouldn't even HAVE that money without the staffs help. There is a give and take that comes with being a business owner, but some people just want to take and keep taking and not give anything back to those who helped get them where they are. (think microstock agencies)

I wonder if the business owners who are tacking on a visible surcharge for the wage increase also tacked on visible surcharges when the cost of coffee went up, or the cost of flour, or the cost of every other thing they buy on a daily basis. Seems to me like they are making more of a political statement. Rather than separate out the extra .08 cent charge to constantly throw it in everyone's face, why not just up their menu item prices by 8 cents and get on with it? Heaven forbid they should actually take the money out of their own salary. They could cut back from 5 Starbucks a week to 4 and make up the difference.

Oh, and by the way, I owned my own business in Los Angeles for 10 years and paid my employees the wage I would want to make. So I know EXACTLY what it takes it open a business. I ended up selling the company to a printing company because I spent more time driving, keeping books, and selling than I did doing what I loved, graphic design.

robhainer · « **Reply #43 on:** April 03, 2015, 10:08 »

Quote from: Shelma1 on April 03, 2015, 08:09

Quote from: robhainer on April 02, 2015, 21:33
Quote from: Shelma1 on April 02, 2015, 08:19
In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Sorry. I'm not buying it. It is so easy in this country to get the education and skills needed to make more than minimum wage. There are grants and scholarships all over the place. You don't need a four year degree to have good job skills. In fact, technical school training can sometimes gain you a lot more than a philosophy degree. You can be an auto mechanic or a long haul truck drive and still make a good living.

The problem is people aren't willing to put in the time and effort it takes to make a living wage anymore. If the best you can do is stock shelves at Wal-Mart at age 40, you need to rethink your plan and go back to school.

And I'd hardly consider the owner of a pizza shop an "oligarch." Without people like him, willing to take risks and work hard to get their businesses off the ground, there'd be no jobs at all.

Well, I'm not particularly concerned whether you "buy it" or not. I've stated facts. The cost of living and the cost of education have both risen significantly over the past few decades, and minimum wage has not kept pace. Business owners have therefore been paying less to workers than they should have for the past couple of decades. Even if the minimum wage was increased to $15, it would only bring it up to the level which it should be to keep pace with inflation, and that would not make up for all the wages people have lost over the past couple of decades while they were being underpaid.

When I was college-aged it was possible to work full-time at a minimum wage job and pay your way through college, which is what I did, without student loans, scholarships or financial aid. I took a full course load with a double major and worked 40 hours a week at a convenience store. That's just not possible any more, because the minimum wage has not kept pace with the cost of living or the cost of education.

And of course, it was also possible for me to get into college because I'm a relatively privileged person in this country. I'm white and grew up with two parents in a middle-class town with an excellent public school system near a major metropolitan area (New York). I was born in a big city (New York) so was not intimidated by it.

And no, a pizza shop owner is not an oligarch, but if the business is unsustainable because the owner can't afford to pay his workers, then he "deserves" to go out of business. Does he stiff the pizza oven manufacturers? The furniture manufacturers? His suppliers? His landlord? He pays all those costs despite the fact that they've risen with inflation, and he raises his prices along with inflation. His employees are also a business expense, and paying them should also keep pace with inflation.

Your facts are little more than spin. They're assumptions based on a biased viewpoint. I was not a privileged person like you were. I had to do military service to pay for my education. But you don't even have to do that. You can apply for grants or use scholarships to go to technical school to learn a useful trade that will guarantee that you will never have to work for minimum wage. In the state where I live, all you need to do is graduate from high school with a C average and you get to go to technical school for FREE.

Those are facts. Minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage. If it were, every lazy person out there would just go flip burgers and our economy would go in the toilet.

ultimagina · « **Reply #44 on:** April 03, 2015, 10:17 »

Quote from: cathyslife on April 03, 2015, 09:17

Sorry, but I will never have any sympathy for a business owner paying himself a huge wage that affords him the ability to own two homes, take 4 trips a year to Europe, drive the best of cars, and pi$$ money away in ways I can't even imagine, all while griping about how he has to pay his employees a measly $11 an hour.

Don't worry, he can only behave like this as long as he doesn't have enough competition. And, in a way, he must be appreciated for being smart enough to create that type of business with no competitor to challenge his lifestyle.
When some smarter entrepreneur will figure out that he can offer the same services or products without pi$$ing the money away and by attracting your guy's employees with a decent salary, then the guy you despise will either adapt to the market, or go bankrupt.

The problem is that, sometimes, too many artificial regulations (including wage laws) and special interests (mainly political) discourage competition. And this is when mini-monopolies, like the one you describe, thrive and generate these perverted effects.

What was once perceived as good law ends up producing the opposite effect.

Hobostocker · « **Reply #45 on:** April 03, 2015, 10:17 »

Quote from: ultimagaina on April 02, 2015, 09:50

I agree with you on the no minimum wage part. The imposed minimum wage actually eliminates jobs some people would be willing to perform.

in germany they "fixed" the issue with the so called "minijobs" that pay maximum 400 euro/month.

so now you've people running 3-4 different minijobs and working like a mule to earn barely 1200 euro on a good month.

and yet as bad as it is this is the BEST solution that came out of the EU in the last decades so go figure...

Difydave · « **Reply #46 on:** April 03, 2015, 10:37 »

Quote from: Hobostocker on April 03, 2015, 10:17

Quote from: ultimagaina on April 02, 2015, 09:50
I agree with you on the no minimum wage part. The imposed minimum wage actually eliminates jobs some people would be willing to perform.

in germany they "fixed" the issue with the so called "minijobs" that pay maximum 400 euro/month.

so now you've people running 3-4 different minijobs and working like a mule to earn barely 1200 euro on a good month.

and yet as bad as it is this is the BEST solution that came out of the EU in the last decades so go figure...

About typical of any such attempt at government intervention I'd have said.
Make everyone except themselves equally poor.

Shelma1 · « **Reply #47 on:** April 03, 2015, 12:06 »

Quote from: robhainer on April 03, 2015, 10:08

Your facts are little more than spin. They're assumptions based on a biased viewpoint. I was not a privileged person like you were. I had to do military service to pay for my education. But you don't even have to do that. You can apply for grants or use scholarships to go to technical school to learn a useful trade that will guarantee that you will never have to work for minimum wage. In the state where I live, all you need to do is graduate from high school with a C average and you get to go to technical school for FREE.

Those are facts. Minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage. If it were, every lazy person out there would just go flip burgers and our economy would go in the toilet.

"According to Bloomberg, college tuition and fees have increased 1,120 percent since records began in 1978.

Using this chart to explain its findings, Bloomberg reports that the rate of increase in college costs has been 'four times faster than the increase in the consumer price index.' It also notes that 'medical expenses have climbed 601 percent, while the price of food has increased 244 percent over the same period.'"

The cost of a college education has increased more than 1,000% since 1978, while the minimum wage has increased about 275%.

You can apply for grants or scholarships, but there's no guarantee you'll get them. And everyone can't serve in the military. You can't even get a student loan unless you qualify—I couldn't.

I'm not sure why you are so adamantly opposed to the minimum wage simply keeping pace with the economy.

robhainer · « **Reply #48 on:** April 03, 2015, 13:28 »

Quote from: Shelma1 on April 03, 2015, 12:06

Quote from: robhainer on April 03, 2015, 10:08

Your facts are little more than spin. They're assumptions based on a biased viewpoint. I was not a privileged person like you were. I had to do military service to pay for my education. But you don't even have to do that. You can apply for grants or use scholarships to go to technical school to learn a useful trade that will guarantee that you will never have to work for minimum wage. In the state where I live, all you need to do is graduate from high school with a C average and you get to go to technical school for FREE.

Those are facts. Minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage. If it were, every lazy person out there would just go flip burgers and our economy would go in the toilet.

"According to Bloomberg, college tuition and fees have increased 1,120 percent since records began in 1978.

Using this chart to explain its findings, Bloomberg reports that the rate of increase in college costs has been 'four times faster than the increase in the consumer price index.' It also notes that 'medical expenses have climbed 601 percent, while the price of food has increased 244 percent over the same period.'"

The cost of a college education has increased more than 1,000% since 1978, while the minimum wage has increased about 275%.

You can apply for grants or scholarships, but there's no guarantee you'll get them. And everyone can't serve in the military. You can't even get a student loan unless you qualify—I couldn't.

I'm not sure why you are so adamantly opposed to the minimum wage simply keeping pace with the economy.

Because it makes no sense to have the same minimum wage in areas of the country with vastly different costs of living. City leaders in San Francisco can thump their chests all they want about raising the minimum wage there to $15 an hour, but that amount has less spending potential than $7.25 an hour where I live.

All I've seen from people with views similar to yours is demagoguery about sticking it to corporations and the "oligarchs" who run small pizza shops. It's garbage.

Did you try to serve in the military to pay for school? Did you make that effort? I doubt it. Fact is, people who think they're stuck earning minimum wage haven't made the effort needed to get a job that pays more than minimum wage. If they did, fewer people would be available for those jobs and the demand would increase the pay.

ultimagina · « **Reply #49 on:** April 03, 2015, 13:47 »

Quote from: robhainer on April 03, 2015, 13:28

Did you try to serve in the military to pay for school? Did you make that effort? I doubt it.

While I agree with you that there should be no minimum wage laws, but let the free market decide them, I am with Shelma on the education problem.

The American education system is broken. It is based on wealth instead of being based on intellectual merits. Only rich kids can afford to go to universities able to compete with the rest of the world. Moreover, morons can go to ivy league universities, only because they play well some sport? Come-on!

Besides, no parents in a civilized country, should be forced to send their kids to war in order to get a decent education. Losing a limb or being killed only to "serve" (and here, "serve" has his original Latin meaning = slave) the government and the warmongers in congress? No thank you!

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