I tried to lighten the mood with a response about wallpapers on mobile phones

Every ship, regardless of size, needs a captain. Without proper guidance, a leaderless ship will reach its destination only by chance or luck.

I've been here only a care while, and it's rather obvious to me that this place has reached a size such that it needs leadership. In corporatespeak, we need a "Mission Statement" along with clearly stated policies.

The questions that I think need to be addressed are these:

• Apart from being "A meeting place for microstock photographers", what is this forum all about? (i.e. Why are we here? What is it we hope to accomplish?)
• Who is in charge?
• What are the rules?
• What type of behavior is unacceptable?
• What is the tolerance level for unacceptable behavior?
• What happens when rules are broken?
• What are the consequences for repeated offenses?

These things, and probably much more, need to clearly defined and written down. It is my belief that without them we are doomed to sail in circles.

Maybe it's a sign that we need to "care" more about what and how we say things without losing the freedom to express things that are importants to each of us.

... hopefully the problem will be fixed carely.

The same glitch works in reverse: s-h-o-r-t becomes c-a-r-e.
Good thing it doesn't get stuck in a loop!

This forum means many different things to many different people.

For some, it is a place to catch up on industry news.  It is much easier going to one source for information, than it is to visit a dozen various microstock sites and try and find the most important threads.

For others, this site is about accomplishments.  If someone has finally been accepted by a site, reached a certain level of accomplishment, been published, or found their image somewhere, they want to share that with their comrades.

For others, this site is about venting their frustrations that they are having with the various microsites.  For example, having a vast majority of images rejected, when those same images have been accepted everywhere else, can be extremely frustrating.  This is actually a large function of this site, because you can't post these sorts of comments on the microstock sites themselves.  If you do, they will lock or delete the thread, probably warn you, and possibly ban you.  And to top it off, they will ridicule you, because they know that they can.

Because you can't question microstock companies policies or post "negative" comments on their boards, people come here (or to similar forums).  So you will inevitably see more "negative" type posts here than positive ones.

What I also hope that this forum can be is a place where we (as artists) can band together to make the microstock industry a better place to do business.  Currently the stock sites are renegades that go by their own rules.  There are no industry standards for most things.  There are no industry watchdogs.  In other words, there is no regulation in this industry whatsoever.

There is an old saying:

Power tends to corrupt
Absolute power corrupts absolutely

If a site does something wrong, then we should hold their feet to the fire.  Otherwise, there is nobody to stop them from doing anything they want.  After all, these are agencies that are supposed to be representing us.

You can't expect every topic to be positive.  If that is what you are looking for, then just go to the site message boards.  There is plenty of that going on over there.  IS could come out and say that they will be reducing royalties, and people would line up to say "Thank You", "Great Job", "Keep it Up", blah, blah, blah.

But whatever we view this site as, I agree that we should try and be polite and respectful to those around us.

I also like the fact that this group was directly responsible for discovering and getting rid of an unethical reviewer (at StockXpert, I think) who had stolen our images and posted them on other micros.

To set the records straight: It wasn't StockXpert, it was Galastock.  And this is just one example where we came together as a community and fixed something that was wrong.  You can read the full thread here:

http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=564.0

Every ship, regardless of size, needs a captain.

There already is a Captain (actually he is more like a General), and he is doing a fantastic job.

Professorgb:

Don't take things so personally.  My post wasn't directed at you.  I would have quoted you if it was.  It was a reply to the general comments that were made in the thread overall.

If you notice I quoted two people at the bottom of my thread.  Those were comments directed at the individuals (one of them being you), but the top part of the thread was generic.

Honestly, I'm not taking things personally.  But, you were replying to a thread I started and you did quote me. 

Nonetheless, I stand behind my call:  Exercise some care with how you write on these forums.  We have nothing but your wording to go by.  If your wording is rude, then we will take your comments as intentional rudeness.  Write carefully, and then edit your writing before you hit the "Post" button.  I highlighted your phrasing because it irritated me.  It was smug and condescending, whether you intended it to be that way or not.

It's incredibly easy to be negative.  The hard part is to be positive.  It takes more time, but the rewards are worth it.

Oh, and I'm not s-h-o-r-t.  I'm t-a-l-l.  Does that mean I don't "care"?  I wonder . . .

Professorgb:

Don't take things so personally.  My post wasn't directed at you.  I would have quoted you if it was.  It was a reply to the general comments that were made in the thread overall.

If you notice I quoted two people at the bottom of my thread.  Those were comments directed at the individuals (one of them being you), but the top part of the thread was generic.

Honestly, I'm not taking things personally.  But, you were replying to a thread I started and you did quote me.

Actually, IMO, you are being overly sensitive.  You might have started the thread, but there were 10 posts between yours and mine.  Not every post after yours was directed towards you.

You have your opinion, that is fine.  But you need to remember that others have the right to post their opinion as well.  Yours isn't the only one that counts.

StockManiac: You have unintentionally offended Professorgb. Your lack of acknowledgement and dismissal of his feelings (as being overly sensitive) is exactly the point he was trying to make when concluding his original post:

... I'd hate to see it ruined because we've lost our manners.  At the least, we owe it to him to do a bit of self-censoring and post more reasonable and rational commentary. ...

A simple "I'm sorry I offended you, but ..." may have worked wonders, perhaps even opening a productive discussion between the two of you. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but you must exercise caution in expressing it, and be prepared to smoothly deal with its results. Dismissing people's reaction to what you write as being too sensitive is not a way to win them over to your side.


That's all for me as well - I gotta get back to making pictures!

We need a spiritual cleansing of the site to send bad spirits away. 

I believe every opinion can be expressed, it's just a matter of how to say it.  Loss of temper is a very common problem in any forum, and we have to think twice before posting.  Each of us has some kind of issue with sites we submit.  Some have given up sites because of these issues, some instead stay and try to promote change - even if it's a lost battle - or live with it.

Following Professor's attittude, a good suggestion would be: whenever we get angry during some discussion here, forget the forum for a couple of hours and go edit and submit your photos. 

Regards,
Adelaide

Quote from: sharply_done on April 12, 2007, 11:12

I've been here only a care while, and it's rather obvious...

Bizarre behavior: The word care is supposed to be the word s-h-o-r-t. It won't change, even in this post, unless I spell it with hyphens!

I am currently rolling on the floor in laughter.    ROFLOL    I just posted on another thread and have been spending the last 20 minutes or more trying to fix   a    "short"  that keeps coming up   "care".    LOL LOL LOL....   I finally had to rewrite the paragraph and make my point without using the word  "short".   

I really enjoy MSG.  I thank Leaf for his patience. 

Hey... I just realized when proof reading this that even here   s-h-o-r-t
will probably come up care unless I go back and do this...   s-h-o-r-t...
LOL LOL LOL

modify: hey, it came up 'short'    ...how about that?

first of all there is a difference between 'negative' posts and insulting posts.  Insulting posts have no purpose or use here and only cause fights and disrespect.  Negative posts however can be informative and usefull. 

However poorly I may have worded it, this is the point I was making.  Constructive criticism is great.  Bashing is harmful.  It's a fine line between the two, but I'm sure we can all find our way . . .

Quote from: leaf on April 12, 2007, 17:43

first of all there is a difference between 'negative' posts and insulting posts.  Insulting posts have no purpose or use here and only cause fights and disrespect.  Negative posts however can be informative and usefull. 

However poorly I may have worded it, this is the point I was making.  Constructive criticism is great.  Bashing is harmful.  It's a fine line between the two, but I'm sure we can all find our way . . .

yes- a very fine line.... often hard to see unfortunately :S

It's all good.  I did what I hoped I could--I stimulated discussion and got people thinking about how their posts would affect other people.  I must admit that I was getting tired of all the negativity, but now the air seems to have cleared nicely.

This is a good group.

It's strange .. when I connected tonight I wondered what the mood would be here --  so while it might look like I'm taking issue with some of your thougths, professorgb, I totally agree with the sense of climate that started your post.
(I also wondered "what's the deal with senior member, junior member, and full member" ...  but that's another thing

So much for civility.

Bye.

Well, as long as we're beating our hearts and trying to politely stifle frank discussion for the sake of political correctness, I'll be one who apologizes for every remark or rant I've made, and hope anyone to which this was intended either directly or indirectly will forgive me, I lay prostate at your feet and beg forgiveness.

Now, let's get serious. 

There's a lot of people who are new to the arts, or who grew up in an atmosphere of mutual acceptance of mediocre effort.  You see these guys all the time, they have the bumper stickers that say "My child was . . . ..  . .. . " whatever at such and such school. 

They hand out hundreds of these a month and parents proudly paste them to their cars to celebrate their mediocracy.

In the arts, the criticism isn't so polite.  You bare your soul to the world, with all expectations of acclaim and you find that the world doesn't feel the same as you do.  And it's usually not in the form of "Oh, it's nice." but usually something like "it's crap, where in the blackness of your mind did you dredge up that vision?"  When you can handle that sort of criticism, or frank speach, then you're on your way to  be able to call yourself an artist.

Heretofore, it has only been in the arts where frank speach has been acceptable.  Once the arts become politically correct, will be the death of the arts.  We'll be doing pictures of our "heroic leaders" and struggling masses overcoming obstacles of the social system.

Look at Imus, although not a fan, I heard him say a couple words which he obviously learned from the rap vernacular.  Wrong?  Absolutely.  But, we have heard these words thousands of times on the news following the incident.  All top ten songs by rap artists have one or all of these words.  The difference is, he has sponsors that will feel the heat.  Al Sharpton has a constituency that needs to hear that he's doing something, and Jesse Jackson, well, Jesse Jackson, he needs the donations, voluntary or extorted.

The point, at last.  Yes, there does need to be civility on the forums, but this form of civility should never stifle frank, and sometimes provocative discussion of our chosen avocation.  Yes, the sites do not belong to the contributors, but without the contributors there won't be a site........much like Imus.

PS.  To imply that this site is out of control or running on autopilot is ridiculus.  The moderator has done an excellent of modifying or deleting some of my posts he knew I would be ashamed of in the morning.

Yes I agree with stopping insults. The worst of which (for me) are those which are veiled as condesending little snippets of wisdom but which are in fact insulting attacks on a person's intelligence.

I for one certainly don't need educating about how businesses do and should operate. I have people coming to me every day for advice on billion $ infrastructure projects. For me micro is a way to get better at something that has been a lifelong hobby.

One thing that everyone needs to understand about how to treat people is that you treat others the way you wish to be treated. For instance, if someone decides to treat me like an idiot, I take it that is how they wish to be treated. If someone is rude to me, I take it that they wish me to be rude to them.

Normally I will give people a lot of chances to change their behaviour before reacting, but once I do, they will be left in doubt about where they stand.

I know very little about micro, but have learned some great lessons from the folks here. But as far as business goes, there are a lot of people in this world, who if they want to catch up with me, had better stop crawling and start running.

Oh, and I do have a great sense of humor!

For what it's worth, Professorgb, I'm right there with you.

Quote from: StockManiac on April 12, 2007, 13:18

But whatever we view this site as, I agree that we should try and be polite and respectful to those around us.

Can't help but agree there. There are ways, though, to present potentially inflammatory subjects that you haven't explored. May I suggest this as a beginning?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

The topics entitled "Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking" and "Nine Ways to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment" may be of particular interest to you.

Sharply_Do, there is great wisdom in these points. And with most I whole heartedly agree. If you behave in this way towards people, you really will be successfull I believe. These days people are getting offended so quickly in any way.  The thing is, no one behaves perfectly and even if someone acts theoretically "perfectly", people get offend by different worldviews or just misunderstandings.
So the principle "I treat you as you treat me" is doomed to failure to create a peaceful atmosphere. And that applies in all areas in life.  And I believe that is why some conflicts will never stop, because the parties feel it is not fair to not pay the other person back. 
If we feel being treated as idots by DT, should we treat DT the same way? (By the way I personally do not feel treated as an idiot by DT). I would say no. It won't help anybody at all.
J-E-S-U-S (was changed into jeepers??? after I posted) told us, love your enemy, and he lived it. In him is the greatest power of peace within us and between us and others.
However, does it mean we should not critize and let people trample on us? No way, sometime we openly have to show the other one where he is wrong.
But in a loving and kind way. Treat others as you would like them to treat you. A way to do this is to use some of the ways sharply_do pointed out with his link. Also as the link directs, think about your mistakes and admit them first, before you judge.


Hopefully I have not offended anyone.

Cheers, Jan

Maybe it's a sign that we need to "care" more about what and how we say things without losing the freedom to express things that are importants to each of us.

That was the most intelligent comment I have ever read! SY

*Disclaimer: I don't wan't to put down other comments I have previously read, just expressing my appriciation*