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Author Topic: The Prisoner  (Read 12176 times)

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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2018, 10:49 »
0
Back to the OP.  I don't know why you would need VR to do it, but teaching people who have been locked up for a long time since their teens how to function in the modern world seems like a good idea to me.


« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2018, 11:02 »
+2
Quote from: Shelma1
Cultural differences my behind. Black people were forced here (the U.S.) as slaves and have been purposely under educated and locked up in for profit prisons for minor offenses because if slavery can't be legal, then you can at least make laws to target them pretty specifically, red line districts to keep them from living in better neighborhoods with better schools, and keep as many as possible locked up and out of the workforce and the voting booths (where they'd vote for liberals).

When you say "we," who are you referring to, exactly? You write as if you live in the U.S., but you actually live in Canada, a country with a much, much lower incarceration rate.

Valid points Shelma, but you make it sound like a conspiracy.
I don't think that the system has been purposely designed to oppress minorities.
Instead, the majority wants politicians to be "tough on crime" and the consequence is a system with outrageous fines and prison sentences for minor offences.
Personally, I had to pay $85 for running in the park after sunset. It's not an issue for me, but people close to the poverty line might have real trouble paying it. As seen in the stories I provided links for, there are cases where fines are significantly higher, also for minor offences. Failure to pay those fines can lead to jail.
Maybe the reasons behind the "tough on crime" expectations for our politicians derive from the general feel of not being safe Americans have. Maybe it is linked to the wide availability of guns, maybe it is linked to the exacerbated discourse related to terrorism, etc.
So it is not really a conspiracy, but rather a logical consequence of deeper flaws in our system.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 13:09 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2018, 12:30 »
+1
I don't think that the system has been purposely designed to oppress minorities.
Instead, the majority wants politicians to be "tough on crime" and the consequence is a system with outrageous fines and prison sentences for minor offences.
Personally, I had to pay $85 for running in the park after sunset. It's not an issue for me, but people close to the poverty line might have real trouble paying it....
So it is not really a conspiracy, but rather a logical consequence deeper flaws in our system.

I think you've nailed it there.  As we learned after the Ferguson fiasco, a large part of the (mostly minority) population there was locked up for failure to pay the fines from previous offences.  While incarcerated, you can't go to work to earn the money to pay the fines, which means more fines for failure to pay the previous fines and a never-ending cycle that serves nobody except parasitic governments that obtain a significant proportion of their funding from such sources.  Here is another article that sums up many of the issues (https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/incomejails.html) to augment the ones previously provided by ZT.

I had a similar experience to ZT.  I got a speeding ticket while driving home from work.  I had just returned on an overnight flight after a 10-day trip to Ecuador and went into the office to do my travel paperwork.  Due to multiple construction projects, my only way home was through a sort of industrial area near a university.  It was 4:45 PM on a Friday afternoon and I got nailed for going 33 in a 20-mph zone.  The only reason the limit was that low I assume was because during the day there can be a lot of trucks in that area, but it is a good road, on a clear day with perfect visibility, no pedestrians and no traffic.  Anywhere else the speed limit would have been 45 at least. And it was downhill.   I'd never had a speeding ticket or any other other interaction with law enforcement before.  Instead of giving me a warning, he gives me a ticket.  Very annoying.  I went to court to fight it, and really out of curiosity to see how the system works.  The judge listened to my arguments and took them "under advisement".  When I received the decision, he had decided to not put any points on my license, but I still had to pay the fine, which was $5 higher than if I had just payed it and not gone to court.  Then I realized that the whole point was not justice, or safety or protecting the public, it was all about the money.  Fortunately, for me the fine was not a problem, plus I was able to take a couple of nice stock photos while taking pictures to bolster the case so eventually earned back most of it, but for someone with no money in the bank a $130 fine for a minor offense that everyone agreed posed no threat to anybody could land them in jail.  I lost a lot of respect for law enforcement through that process.

Everybody agrees that criminals should be prosecuted and locked away, but throwing people in jail for very minor, nonviolent offences or for failure to pay fines serves no useful purpose.  I will say that while hanging out for traffic court I noticed that our local judge tried to work with people who couldn't pay rather than tossing them in jail, but I think he is the exception rather than the rule.

« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2018, 12:42 »
+1
Not to mention that in many states you loose, for the rest of your life, the right to vote if convicted of a felony. Its just another method to replace the Jim Crow Laws after the Civil Rights Act.  It has been proven that Black Americans receive harder penalties then whites.

Americans don't have a Right to vote in Elections, unlike most countries.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 12:47 by etienjones »

« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2018, 22:19 »
0
Back to the OP.  I don't know why you would need VR to do it, but teaching people who have been locked up for a long time since their teens how to function in the modern world seems like a good idea to me.

If it worked that would be good. I'm not sure that people change much after a life of being criminals living a way of life and belonging to a segment of the population that claims individual culture over society norms.

The 15th Amendment to the Constitution granted African American men the right to vote by declaring that the right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. Although ratified on February 3, 1870, the promise of the 15th Amendment would not be fully realized for almost a century. Through the use of poll taxes, literacy tests and other means, Southern states were able to effectively disenfranchise African Americans.

Southern States means Democrats. They opposed integration, education, bussing to equal schools, voting rights and everything the Liberals claim they stand for. That's the big lie. Democrats favor control through welfare to gain votes. They have played this lie to the limit.

"... The higher the education level, the more likely they are to vote Democratic," Democrats want to tell us how they know better and are more educated.

Facts, Government benefits, and the percentages of those who voted Republican or Democrat:

    Public Housing - 81% D vs 12% R
    Medicaid - 74% D vs 16% R
    Food Stamps - 67% D vs 20% R
    Unemployment Compensation - 64% D vs 25% R
    Welfare/Public Assistance - 63% D vs 22% R

And we wonder why Democrats are trying to continually increase the scope of government programs. More votes.

Why are the Democrats against free choice for school? They want to keep their control and the public schools that keep people down, instead of allowing charter schools and freedom of choice for parents of minorities.

JimP

« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2018, 17:52 »
0
Not to mention that in many states you loose, for the rest of your life, the right to vote if convicted of a felony. Its just another method to replace the Jim Crow Laws after the Civil Rights Act.  It has been proven that Black Americans receive harder penalties then whites.

Americans don't have a Right to vote in Elections, unlike most countries.


We don't? What makes you think that? Black Americans got the right to vote when the Republicans passed the 15th Amendment. It was ratified on February 3, 1870 and was the 3rd of the Reconstruction amendments. Many uninformed people think the Voting Rights Act of 1965, that was filibustered by the Democrats, gave blacks the right to vote. Notice who was behind these rights acts, the Republicans. Indians got the right to vote in 1924 when they were declared citizens. Kind of strange since they were here first. Only citizens may vote in an election for federal office.

This Liberal Judge in CA shouldn't have the right to vote, he's an idiot. http://www.ibtimes.com/who-aaron-persky-judge-brock-turner-sexual-assault-case-could-be-removed-bench-2644774

Convicted felons should lose their right to vote, it's a right for honest law abiding citizens.

« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2018, 03:27 »
+1
Not according to the Supreme Court. In Bush v. Gore (2000), the Court ruled that [t]he individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States.

As a result, voting is not a right, but a privilege granted or withheld at the discretion of local and state governments. 

In its 2000 ruling, Alexander v Mineta, the Court decided the 600,000 or so (mostly black) residents of Washington D.C. have no legal recourse for their complete lack of voting representation in Congress The Court affirmed the district courts interpretation that our Constitution does not protect the right of all citizens to vote, but rather the right of all qualified citizens to vote. And its state legislatures that wield the power to decide who is qualified.

Shelma1

« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2018, 09:53 »
+2
Quote from: Shelma1
Cultural differences my behind. Black people were forced here (the U.S.) as slaves and have been purposely under educated and locked up in for profit prisons for minor offenses because if slavery can't be legal, then you can at least make laws to target them pretty specifically, red line districts to keep them from living in better neighborhoods with better schools, and keep as many as possible locked up and out of the workforce and the voting booths (where they'd vote for liberals).

When you say "we," who are you referring to, exactly? You write as if you live in the U.S., but you actually live in Canada, a country with a much, much lower incarceration rate.

Valid points Shelma, but you make it sound like a conspiracy.
I don't think that the system has been purposely designed to oppress minorities.
Instead, the majority wants politicians to be "tough on crime" and the consequence is a system with outrageous fines and prison sentences for minor offences.
Personally, I had to pay $85 for running in the park after sunset. It's not an issue for me, but people close to the poverty line might have real trouble paying it. As seen in the stories I provided links for, there are cases where fines are significantly higher, also for minor offences. Failure to pay those fines can lead to jail.
Maybe the reasons behind the "tough on crime" expectations for our politicians derive from the general feel of not being safe Americans have. Maybe it is linked to the wide availability of guns, maybe it is linked to the exacerbated discourse related to terrorism, etc.
So it is not really a conspiracy, but rather a logical consequence of deeper flaws in our system.

I used to feel that way. Then I did some reading and found it actually is a conspiracy, unfortunately. The U.S. government has absolutely been involved in efforts over the centuries to purposely keep black people from being properly educated; has given only white G.I.s loans and access to decent housing after they return from war; has crafted laws and longer prison sentences that target specific forms of drugs (crack cocaine rather than powdered, for example, because blacks used more crack and whites more powder); has redlined housing districts to exclude blacks from decent neighborhoods, basically forcing them into ghettos where they are surrounded by crime and receive sub par education.

Studies have consistently shown that blacks (and women) receive worse health care than white men. Black people are arrested more often than white people for drug offenses, even though whites are more likely to use drugs. They receive longer prison terms for the same crimes. They're shot to death by police for all kinds of nonsense. Banks purposely charge them outlandish fees while giving white people free banking. Basically, the white establishment does everything it can to keep black people down. It's purposeful, 100%.

« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2018, 11:19 »
+1
Quote from: Shelma1
Cultural differences my behind. Black people were forced here (the U.S.) as slaves and have been purposely under educated and locked up in for profit prisons for minor offenses because if slavery can't be legal, then you can at least make laws to target them pretty specifically, red line districts to keep them from living in better neighborhoods with better schools, and keep as many as possible locked up and out of the workforce and the voting booths (where they'd vote for liberals).

When you say "we," who are you referring to, exactly? You write as if you live in the U.S., but you actually live in Canada, a country with a much, much lower incarceration rate.

Valid points Shelma, but you make it sound like a conspiracy.
I don't think that the system has been purposely designed to oppress minorities.
Instead, the majority wants politicians to be "tough on crime" and the consequence is a system with outrageous fines and prison sentences for minor offences.
Personally, I had to pay $85 for running in the park after sunset. It's not an issue for me, but people close to the poverty line might have real trouble paying it. As seen in the stories I provided links for, there are cases where fines are significantly higher, also for minor offences. Failure to pay those fines can lead to jail.
Maybe the reasons behind the "tough on crime" expectations for our politicians derive from the general feel of not being safe Americans have. Maybe it is linked to the wide availability of guns, maybe it is linked to the exacerbated discourse related to terrorism, etc.
So it is not really a conspiracy, but rather a logical consequence of deeper flaws in our system.

I used to feel that way. Then I did some reading and found it actually is a conspiracy, unfortunately. The U.S. government has absolutely been involved in efforts over the centuries to purposely keep black people from being properly educated; has given only white G.I.s loans and access to decent housing after they return from war; has crafted laws and longer prison sentences that target specific forms of drugs (crack cocaine rather than powdered, for example, because blacks used more crack and whites more powder); has redlined housing districts to exclude blacks from decent neighborhoods, basically forcing them into ghettos where they are surrounded by crime and receive sub par education.

Studies have consistently shown that blacks (and women) receive worse health care than white men. Black people are arrested more often than white people for drug offenses, even though whites are more likely to use drugs. They receive longer prison terms for the same crimes. They're shot to death by police for all kinds of nonsense. Banks purposely charge them outlandish fees while giving white people free banking. Basically, the white establishment does everything it can to keep black people down. It's purposeful, 100%.

I don't deny the existence of racism in America. It is very much present, no doubt about this. But I am very certain that racism is present in many other countries, where it is not acknowledged. Anti-Gypsy racism in Eastern Europe comes to mind, as an example. Islamophobia (although this is not racism, in theory) is pretty much present throughout Western Europe and beyond.
Some might not even realise the level of the racism in their countries, because they never had the chance to meet and interact with people of a different race.

Yet, most of this countries point fingers towards American racism, a lot being oblivious to what's going on under their nose. This is because racism in America is constantly and openly debated, in the news, in politics, etc.

Having said that, I rather believe that we deal with a vicious circle, where poverty leads to more poverty, because of a broken system. A system where we allow government too much power, power to setup stupid, arbitrary laws, excessive fines and a plethora of economical barriers impacting mainly the poor, preventing them to express their true potential and to grow out of poverty.



« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2018, 14:18 »
+1
This is strange and odd. London passes New York city in murders? https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/london-murder-rate-overtakes-new-york-for-first-time-ever-after-spate-of-fatal-stabbings-and-shootings/ar-AAvlxcY?OCID=ansmsnnews11 and because of stabbings. Not that either should brag when 21 or 22 people just died needlessly.

namussi

« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2018, 01:24 »
+1
This is strange and odd. London passes New York city in murders? https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/london-murder-rate-overtakes-new-york-for-first-time-ever-after-spate-of-fatal-stabbings-and-shootings/ar-AAvlxcY?OCID=ansmsnnews11 and because of stabbings. Not that either should brag when 21 or 22 people just died needlessly.

If only British people were allowed to carry handguns, then there would be far fewer murders.

« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2018, 16:57 »
0
This is strange and odd. London passes New York city in murders? https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/london-murder-rate-overtakes-new-york-for-first-time-ever-after-spate-of-fatal-stabbings-and-shootings/ar-AAvlxcY?OCID=ansmsnnews11 and because of stabbings. Not that either should brag when 21 or 22 people just died needlessly.

If only British people were allowed to carry handguns, then there would be far fewer murders.

I know you are pointing at the absurd, but if they had guns in the UK the only part that would change would be choice of weapons. The problem is gangs, violence and people. Take away the knife and the attacks with willow wood bats would increase.

« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2018, 22:40 »
0
Quote from: Shelma1
Cultural differences my behind. Black people were forced here (the U.S.) as slaves and have been purposely under educated and locked up in for profit prisons for minor offenses because if slavery can't be legal, then you can at least make laws to target them pretty specifically, red line districts to keep them from living in better neighborhoods with better schools, and keep as many as possible locked up and out of the workforce and the voting booths (where they'd vote for liberals).

When you say "we," who are you referring to, exactly? You write as if you live in the U.S., but you actually live in Canada, a country with a much, much lower incarceration rate.

Valid points Shelma, but you make it sound like a conspiracy.
I don't think that the system has been purposely designed to oppress minorities.
Instead, the majority wants politicians to be "tough on crime" and the consequence is a system with outrageous fines and prison sentences for minor offences.
Personally, I had to pay $85 for running in the park after sunset. It's not an issue for me, but people close to the poverty line might have real trouble paying it. As seen in the stories I provided links for, there are cases where fines are significantly higher, also for minor offences. Failure to pay those fines can lead to jail.
Maybe the reasons behind the "tough on crime" expectations for our politicians derive from the general feel of not being safe Americans have. Maybe it is linked to the wide availability of guns, maybe it is linked to the exacerbated discourse related to terrorism, etc.
So it is not really a conspiracy, but rather a logical consequence of deeper flaws in our system.

I used to feel that way. Then I did some reading and found it actually is a conspiracy, unfortunately. The U.S. government has absolutely been involved in efforts over the centuries to purposely keep black people from being properly educated; has given only white G.I.s loans and access to decent housing after they return from war; has crafted laws and longer prison sentences that target specific forms of drugs (crack cocaine rather than powdered, for example, because blacks used more crack and whites more powder); has redlined housing districts to exclude blacks from decent neighborhoods, basically forcing them into ghettos where they are surrounded by crime and receive sub par education.

Studies have consistently shown that blacks (and women) receive worse health care than white men. Black people are arrested more often than white people for drug offenses, even though whites are more likely to use drugs. They receive longer prison terms for the same crimes. They're shot to death by police for all kinds of nonsense. Banks purposely charge them outlandish fees while giving white people free banking. Basically, the white establishment does everything it can to keep black people down. It's purposeful, 100%.

I don't deny the existence of racism in America. It is very much present, no doubt about this. But I am very certain that racism is present in many other countries, where it is not acknowledged. Anti-Gypsy racism in Eastern Europe comes to mind, as an example. Islamophobia (although this is not racism, in theory) is pretty much present throughout Western Europe and beyond.
Some might not even realise the level of the racism in their countries, because they never had the chance to meet and interact with people of a different race.

Yet, most of this countries point fingers towards American racism, a lot being oblivious to what's going on under their nose. This is because racism in America is constantly and openly debated, in the news, in politics, etc.

Having said that, I rather believe that we deal with a vicious circle, where poverty leads to more poverty, because of a broken system. A system where we allow government too much power, power to setup stupid, arbitrary laws, excessive fines and a plethora of economical barriers impacting mainly the poor, preventing them to express their true potential and to grow out of poverty.

I wish you two were in office rather than the ignorant bozos we have instead.


 

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