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Author Topic: The Prisoner  (Read 13802 times)

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RAW

« on: December 27, 2017, 17:55 »
0
Prisons in Colorado are using VR to 'teach' prisoners how to act in the real world.

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/bjym3w/this-prison-is-using-vr-to-teach-inmates-how-to-live-on-the-outside

They are going to need plenty of stock footage. I would imagine scenes similar to those in A Clockwork Orange.


k_t_g

  • Merry Christmas! Hark the herald angels sing.....!
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2017, 23:33 »
0
I wonder if they get an electric shock as a negative reinforcement?  ;)

RAW

« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2017, 23:52 »
+2
The government controlling the reality of prisoners.
. . . a brave new world.

namussi

« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 00:37 »
+2
The government controlling the reality of prisoners.
. . . a brave new world.

Isn't that part of the point of prisons?


k_t_g

  • Merry Christmas! Hark the herald angels sing.....!
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2017, 00:51 »
+4
The government controlling the reality of prisoners.
. . . a brave new world.

Isn't that part of the point of prisons?

I get what he's saying. This can get out of hand and not just be used in prisons but on other populations of people as well. If you don't like a group of people and or their view points, just use these brain washing techniques. Yes, this stuff can be abused. See how the charter of rights in your country can change due to terrorism. Look at how our freedoms have eroded. Its scary what can happen in the near future.  :(

namussi

« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2017, 01:13 »
0
The government controlling the reality of prisoners.
. . . a brave new world.

Isn't that part of the point of prisons?

I get what he's saying. This can get out of hand and not just be used in prisons but on other populations of people as well. If you don't like a group of people and or their view points, just use these brain washing techniques. Yes, this stuff can be abused. See how the charter of rights in your country can change due to terrorism. Look at how our freedoms have eroded. Its scary what can happen in the near future.  :(

I really don't see that. The inmates could just have easily watch TV shows about living outside. But because virtual "reality" is involved, suddenly everyone panics? Stupid.

RAW

« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2017, 10:00 »
+3
I really don't see that. The inmates could just have easily watch TV shows about living outside. But because virtual "reality" is involved, suddenly everyone panics? Stupid.

It's not stupid.

We are already running the US prison system on a for profit basis. That's why we have the largest proportion of our population in prisons. More than any country in the world.

What happens when there is only one thing to 'watch' and that is controlled and produced by the government? Or controlled and produced by one private corporation?

« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2017, 10:06 »
+2
Reality is not the one you think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlFiHhN8aew

JimP

« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2017, 15:35 »
+1
I really don't see that. The inmates could just have easily watch TV shows about living outside. But because virtual "reality" is involved, suddenly everyone panics? Stupid.

It's not stupid.

We are already running the US prison system on a for profit basis. That's why we have the largest proportion of our population in prisons. More than any country in the world.

What happens when there is only one thing to 'watch' and that is controlled and produced by the government? Or controlled and produced by one private corporation?

You can look at the system upside down and you won't see, if the laws aren't enforced, people won't be in prisons. Some places don't have the space, they don't put people in. Some countries don't need more prisons because the death penalty for crime is often the quick result. Some places you don't get a trial or prison you just become a non-person or disappear. Mexico the prison rates have gone down, because they don't prosecute as many cases.

Top 25 murder rates in the world. US is not on this list. https://list25.com/25-countries-with-the-highest-murder-rates-in-the-world/ 1 in 1000 will be murdered in Honduras. People in prison doesn't mean innocent are in jail, murder rates show where more should be. Honduras 66 people per 100,000 death by gunshot. There aren't more criminals in the US, there is more law enforcement. The law abiding citizens deserve and get protection from the criminals, and you somehow find that's wrong?

Prison doesn't deter crime and doesn't rehabilitate people, the whole system is a farce. Now we house people in the US who can't deal with society, they get free room and board, don't have to be responsible and some actually like prison better and are well adapted to that society, don't want to be out on the street. Hard to understand because we aren't them, but there's a simple comfort to being where they know the rules and can live in that structure. Some people like being in the military I hated it as one of the dumbest work experiences in my life.

namussi

« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2017, 22:05 »
0
I really don't see that. The inmates could just have easily watch TV shows about living outside. But because virtual "reality" is involved, suddenly everyone panics? Stupid.

We are already running the US prison system on a for profit basis. That's why we have the largest proportion of our population in prisons. More than any country in the world.



Very little of the US prison system is run for profit. (I think the figures are something like 10% of state prisoners and 20% of federal prisoners.) So I don't think that's the reason.

American voters keep voting for politicians who promise lots of prison sentences ... the longer the better.


« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2017, 09:58 »
0
I really don't see that. The inmates could just have easily watch TV shows about living outside. But because virtual "reality" is involved, suddenly everyone panics? Stupid.

We are already running the US prison system on a for profit basis. That's why we have the largest proportion of our population in prisons. More than any country in the world.



Very little of the US prison system is run for profit. (I think the figures are something like 10% of state prisoners and 20% of federal prisoners.) So I don't think that's the reason.

American voters keep voting for politicians who promise lots of prison sentences ... the longer the better.

You mean like we actually get what was promised or voted for? I haven't seen anyone running on law and order where I live, longer jail sentences or more convictions. Do you make this up of do you live in the American Southwest, where crime, illegals and stupid politicians are rampant? California the land of fruits and nuts.

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2017, 13:46 »
+3

namussi

« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2017, 10:22 »
+1

You mean like we actually get what was promised or voted for? I haven't seen anyone running on law and order where I live, longer jail sentences or more convictions. Do you make this up of do you live in the American Southwest, where crime, illegals and stupid politicians are rampant? California the land of fruits and nuts.

Assume I'm wrong then: what do you think explains that the US has five per cent of the world's population, and 25% of the world's prisoners?


Shelma1

« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2017, 16:53 »
+3
"A 2011 report by the American Civil Liberties Union point out that private prisons are more costly, more violent and less accountable than public prisons, and are actually a major contributor to increased mass incarceration. This is most apparent in Louisiana, which has the highest incarceration rate in the world and houses the majority of its inmates in for-profit facilities."

namussi

« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2017, 21:25 »
+1
"A 2011 report by the American Civil Liberties Union point out that private prisons are more costly, more violent and less accountable than public prisons, and are actually a major contributor to increased mass incarceration. This is most apparent in Louisiana, which has the highest incarceration rate in the world and houses the majority of its inmates in for-profit facilities."

That may well be right. But the numbers don't explain why there are so many prisoners in the United States, as well over three-fourths of them are in federal/state institutions.

« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2017, 03:20 »
+2
While locking people up fulfills a very understandable need for revenge and punishment it is a very poor method of reducing crime...but we live in times where rational thinking are er Trumped by emotion and slogans

« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2017, 11:24 »
+2

You mean like we actually get what was promised or voted for? I haven't seen anyone running on law and order where I live, longer jail sentences or more convictions. Do you make this up of do you live in the American Southwest, where crime, illegals and stupid politicians are rampant? California the land of fruits and nuts.

Assume I'm wrong then: what do you think explains that the US has five per cent of the world's population, and 25% of the world's prisoners?

US is not far from the definition of a police state.
People go to prison for being poor and unable to pay insanely huge fines, initiating a vicious poverty circle.
There is also the "war" on drugs, one of the main reasons for unnecessary incarceration, but still a successful way for backward minded politicians to get elected.
Police has way too much power in US. It often looks like an occupation army. But "law and order" is another election winning slogan.

So much for the "land of the free"!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 11:36 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2017, 11:57 »
0

You mean like we actually get what was promised or voted for? I haven't seen anyone running on law and order where I live, longer jail sentences or more convictions. Do you make this up of do you live in the American Southwest, where crime, illegals and stupid politicians are rampant? California the land of fruits and nuts.

Assume I'm wrong then: what do you think explains that the US has five per cent of the world's population, and 25% of the world's prisoners?

US is not far from the definition of a police state.
People go to prison for being poor and unable to pay stupidly huge fines, initiating a vicious poverty circle.
There is also the "war" on drugs, one of the main reasons for unnecessary incarceration, but still a successful way for backward minded politicians to get elected.
Police has way too much power in US. It often looks like an occupation army. But "law and order" is another election winning slogan.

So much for the "land of the free"!

Right we should do nothing about people who rob and mug others for drug money. People who are poor might be going to jail for committing crimes, not for being poor. You may like anarchy until you get beat up on the street by someone who needs a few bucks for a fix.

Young black males without a high school diploma were more likely to be in prison or jail (37 percent) on any given day in 2008 than to be working (26 percent). People without jobs and without education, end up suffering the most. I think we need to fix the education system and help these people get out of poverty and the slums. First step would be schools that teach instead of warehousing kids. Then stop the liberals from passing everyone on and out, as long as they feel good about themselves, and start helping kids learn something.

Less Latinos are in jail then blacks because the illegals just get send back or deported. Don't blame crime on race, or blame the system for arresting criminals, that's racist as all hell. Blame the system that doesn't allow equal opportunity for school and jobs. When blacks are in gangs, have more out of wedlock children, or filling prisons, do say, oh its just part of their culture the white people don't understand.

If we are all the same, we all need to live together and behave the same with the same laws. There's no free pass for cultural differences, one nation. Stop dividing and start joining together. There are many other minorities other than blacks and latinos, they don't end up in prisons and the poorest areas, with high risk neighborhoods and gangs. Why is that? Maybe there is a cultural difference and some groups aren't joining into the system.

Why do the California colleges have set quotas for the number of Asians allowed into a college class, racial discrimination, but have to reserve spots for other minorities, to make sure those less qualified minorities can get into school. Cultural? You bet your ass. If we all get what we earn based on qualifications, work and skills, why do some have to get special treatment to be equal?

Pretty much everyone here doesn't like others who get accused of better treatment in the search, a better % rate, more sales because the agency might be favoring them. Then on the forum you defend the same discrimination in the culture you live in? That's strange.

People are in jail because they commit crimes and the system prosecutes. There's no bias or law and order agenda that says we need more people in prisons. We need less. My exception to this is any crime committed with a gun should have a mandatory sentence, but you would probably argue that too many people went to prison for that, at the same time crying about gun crimes? Make up your mind.

I say better education will make for better opportunities and in the long term less young people in jail because they are living in poverty and poor conditions. With education and skills they can bring themselves out of that cycle. Prisons don't rehabilitate anyone or if they do, it's a small number.

If you don't want people in prison, how would you deal with crime? That's my question?

« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2017, 13:50 »
0
In the UK we had a political sound bite that actually made sense "Tough on crime Tough on the causes of crime"

« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2017, 14:35 »
0

You mean like we actually get what was promised or voted for? I haven't seen anyone running on law and order where I live, longer jail sentences or more convictions. Do you make this up of do you live in the American Southwest, where crime, illegals and stupid politicians are rampant? California the land of fruits and nuts.

Assume I'm wrong then: what do you think explains that the US has five per cent of the world's population, and 25% of the world's prisoners?

US is not far from the definition of a police state.
People go to prison for being poor and unable to pay stupidly huge fines, initiating a vicious poverty circle.
There is also the "war" on drugs, one of the main reasons for unnecessary incarceration, but still a successful way for backward minded politicians to get elected.
Police has way too much power in US. It often looks like an occupation army. But "law and order" is another election winning slogan.

So much for the "land of the free"!

Right we should do nothing about people who rob and mug others for drug money. People who are poor might be going to jail for committing crimes, not for being poor. You may like anarchy until you get beat up on the street by someone who needs a few bucks for a fix.
...

So the alternative to the highest incarceration rate in the world is anarchy, in your world?
No, my friend, the alternative to the highest incarceration rate in the world is a "normal" incarceration rate.
All civilised communities rely on laws for cooperation. However, jailing for minor offenses is a police state characteristic.

And, for your information, people are going to jail for being poor and unable to pay their debts. Yeah, not paying debts is a crime, but do we really have to fill our prisons with such "criminals"?

Read these examples among many other:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/opinion/sunday/is-it-a-crime-to-be-poor.html

"If you dont believe me, come with me to the county jail in Tulsa. On the day I visited, 23 people were incarcerated for failure to pay government fines and fees, including one woman imprisoned because she couldnt pay a fine for lacking a license plate."

And here is a recent article about the re-enforcement of these laws: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/opinion/sessions-says-to-courts-go-ahead-jail-people-because-theyre-poor.html

"A veteran battling homelessness in Michigan lost his job when a judge jailed him for bringing only $25 rather than the required $50 first payment to court."

It reminds me the story of Jean Valjean in Les Misrables!

And don't tell me these are "fake news" from "failing NYTimes", please, because your other "arguments" sound very similar to those coming from some well known small tweeting hands.

If you have time and want to smile at this serious matter, watch this: https://youtu.be/0UjpmT5noto
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 16:45 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2018, 10:56 »
0

You mean like we actually get what was promised or voted for? I haven't seen anyone running on law and order where I live, longer jail sentences or more convictions. Do you make this up of do you live in the American Southwest, where crime, illegals and stupid politicians are rampant? California the land of fruits and nuts.

Assume I'm wrong then: what do you think explains that the US has five per cent of the world's population, and 25% of the world's prisoners?

US is not far from the definition of a police state.
People go to prison for being poor and unable to pay stupidly huge fines, initiating a vicious poverty circle.
There is also the "war" on drugs, one of the main reasons for unnecessary incarceration, but still a successful way for backward minded politicians to get elected.
Police has way too much power in US. It often looks like an occupation army. But "law and order" is another election winning slogan.

So much for the "land of the free"!

Right we should do nothing about people who rob and mug others for drug money. People who are poor might be going to jail for committing crimes, not for being poor. You may like anarchy until you get beat up on the street by someone who needs a few bucks for a fix.
...

So the alternative to the highest incarceration rate in the world is anarchy, in your world?
No, my friend, the alternative to the highest incarceration rate in the world is a "normal" incarceration rate.
All civilised communities rely on laws for cooperation. However, jailing for minor offenses is a police state characteristic.

And, for your information, people are going to jail for being poor and unable to pay their debts. Yeah, not paying debts is a crime, but do we really have to fill our prisons with such "criminals"?

Read these examples among many other:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/opinion/sunday/is-it-a-crime-to-be-poor.html

"If you dont believe me, come with me to the county jail in Tulsa. On the day I visited, 23 people were incarcerated for failure to pay government fines and fees, including one woman imprisoned because she couldnt pay a fine for lacking a license plate."

And here is a recent article about the re-enforcement of these laws: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/opinion/sessions-says-to-courts-go-ahead-jail-people-because-theyre-poor.html

"A veteran battling homelessness in Michigan lost his job when a judge jailed him for bringing only $25 rather than the required $50 first payment to court."

It reminds me the story of Jean Valjean in Les Misrables!

And don't tell me these are "fake news" from "failing NYTimes", please, because your other "arguments" sound very similar to those coming from some well known small tweeting hands.

If you have time and want to smile at this serious matter, watch this: https://youtu.be/0UjpmT5noto

You didn't answer, but your answer is anarchy. No punishment, do what anyone wants. No laws if the person is poor?

What is you alternative. Let people with no license plates drive. Let people with no registration or insurance drive? Most of these sad stories of how someone was imprisoned for not paying a fine will be backed by this person having a long history of illegal activity, bad checks, shoplifting, breaking laws and not paying any fines.
 
Don't try to make the criminals look like the victims. How about the people they stole from and the stores that got bad checks. How about their rights?

What is your answer? Calling the US a police state is not a solution it's just shouting. What's the solution?

« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2018, 12:03 »
+1

You mean like we actually get what was promised or voted for? I haven't seen anyone running on law and order where I live, longer jail sentences or more convictions. Do you make this up of do you live in the American Southwest, where crime, illegals and stupid politicians are rampant? California the land of fruits and nuts.

Assume I'm wrong then: what do you think explains that the US has five per cent of the world's population, and 25% of the world's prisoners?

US is not far from the definition of a police state.
People go to prison for being poor and unable to pay stupidly huge fines, initiating a vicious poverty circle.
There is also the "war" on drugs, one of the main reasons for unnecessary incarceration, but still a successful way for backward minded politicians to get elected.
Police has way too much power in US. It often looks like an occupation army. But "law and order" is another election winning slogan.

So much for the "land of the free"!

Right we should do nothing about people who rob and mug others for drug money. People who are poor might be going to jail for committing crimes, not for being poor. You may like anarchy until you get beat up on the street by someone who needs a few bucks for a fix.
...

So the alternative to the highest incarceration rate in the world is anarchy, in your world?
No, my friend, the alternative to the highest incarceration rate in the world is a "normal" incarceration rate.
All civilised communities rely on laws for cooperation. However, jailing for minor offenses is a police state characteristic.

And, for your information, people are going to jail for being poor and unable to pay their debts. Yeah, not paying debts is a crime, but do we really have to fill our prisons with such "criminals"?

Read these examples among many other:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/opinion/sunday/is-it-a-crime-to-be-poor.html

"If you dont believe me, come with me to the county jail in Tulsa. On the day I visited, 23 people were incarcerated for failure to pay government fines and fees, including one woman imprisoned because she couldnt pay a fine for lacking a license plate."

And here is a recent article about the re-enforcement of these laws: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/opinion/sessions-says-to-courts-go-ahead-jail-people-because-theyre-poor.html

"A veteran battling homelessness in Michigan lost his job when a judge jailed him for bringing only $25 rather than the required $50 first payment to court."

It reminds me the story of Jean Valjean in Les Misrables!

And don't tell me these are "fake news" from "failing NYTimes", please, because your other "arguments" sound very similar to those coming from some well known small tweeting hands.

If you have time and want to smile at this serious matter, watch this: https://youtu.be/0UjpmT5noto

You didn't answer, but your answer is anarchy. No punishment, do what anyone wants. No laws if the person is poor?

What is you alternative. Let people with no license plates drive. Let people with no registration or insurance drive? Most of these sad stories of how someone was imprisoned for not paying a fine will be backed by this person having a long history of illegal activity, bad checks, shoplifting, breaking laws and not paying any fines.
 
Don't try to make the criminals look like the victims. How about the people they stole from and the stores that got bad checks. How about their rights?

What is your answer? Calling the US a police state is not a solution it's just shouting. What's the solution?

I answered. You didn't read. I said "normal" incarceration rate. Not anarchy. Like in any civilised country. Not a medieval system ruled by the likes of Javert who sends hungry people to 19 years of prison for stealing a loaf of bread. There is punishment and there is punishment.
I refuse to believe that Americans are more criminal than any other civilised nation. It's not the people. It is the virtual police state they live in.
A system with excessive punishments and excessive fines for minor offences. A system built by populist politicians who play the "tough on crime" game to get elected.
Ask yourself why civilised countries like Holland ran out if prisoners, transforming prisons in hotels? There are many ways to make people behave in a society, prison is not the only answer.

JimP

« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 20:11 »
0
It really sucks to live here in the police state of the US.https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/we-loot-or-we-die-of-hunger-food-shortages-fuel-unrest-in-venezuela/ar-AAuXnYt
On the night of 9 January, for example, a hungry mob took just 30 minutes to pick clean a grocery store in the eastern city of Puerto Ordaz. By the time owner Luis Felipe Anatael arrived at the bodega hed opened five months earlier, the looters had hauled away everything from cold cuts to ketchup to the cash registers.

Shelma1

« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2018, 06:40 »
+3

You mean like we actually get what was promised or voted for? I haven't seen anyone running on law and order where I live, longer jail sentences or more convictions. Do you make this up of do you live in the American Southwest, where crime, illegals and stupid politicians are rampant? California the land of fruits and nuts.

Assume I'm wrong then: what do you think explains that the US has five per cent of the world's population, and 25% of the world's prisoners?

US is not far from the definition of a police state.
People go to prison for being poor and unable to pay stupidly huge fines, initiating a vicious poverty circle.
There is also the "war" on drugs, one of the main reasons for unnecessary incarceration, but still a successful way for backward minded politicians to get elected.
Police has way too much power in US. It often looks like an occupation army. But "law and order" is another election winning slogan.

So much for the "land of the free"!

Right we should do nothing about people who rob and mug others for drug money. People who are poor might be going to jail for committing crimes, not for being poor. You may like anarchy until you get beat up on the street by someone who needs a few bucks for a fix.

Young black males without a high school diploma were more likely to be in prison or jail (37 percent) on any given day in 2008 than to be working (26 percent). People without jobs and without education, end up suffering the most. I think we need to fix the education system and help these people get out of poverty and the slums. First step would be schools that teach instead of warehousing kids. Then stop the liberals from passing everyone on and out, as long as they feel good about themselves, and start helping kids learn something.

Less Latinos are in jail then blacks because the illegals just get send back or deported. Don't blame crime on race, or blame the system for arresting criminals, that's racist as all hell. Blame the system that doesn't allow equal opportunity for school and jobs. When blacks are in gangs, have more out of wedlock children, or filling prisons, do say, oh its just part of their culture the white people don't understand.

If we are all the same, we all need to live together and behave the same with the same laws. There's no free pass for cultural differences, one nation. Stop dividing and start joining together. There are many other minorities other than blacks and latinos, they don't end up in prisons and the poorest areas, with high risk neighborhoods and gangs. Why is that? Maybe there is a cultural difference and some groups aren't joining into the system.

Why do the California colleges have set quotas for the number of Asians allowed into a college class, racial discrimination, but have to reserve spots for other minorities, to make sure those less qualified minorities can get into school. Cultural? You bet your ass. If we all get what we earn based on qualifications, work and skills, why do some have to get special treatment to be equal?

Pretty much everyone here doesn't like others who get accused of better treatment in the search, a better % rate, more sales because the agency might be favoring them. Then on the forum you defend the same discrimination in the culture you live in? That's strange.

People are in jail because they commit crimes and the system prosecutes. There's no bias or law and order agenda that says we need more people in prisons. We need less. My exception to this is any crime committed with a gun should have a mandatory sentence, but you would probably argue that too many people went to prison for that, at the same time crying about gun crimes? Make up your mind.

I say better education will make for better opportunities and in the long term less young people in jail because they are living in poverty and poor conditions. With education and skills they can bring themselves out of that cycle. Prisons don't rehabilitate anyone or if they do, it's a small number.

If you don't want people in prison, how would you deal with crime? That's my question?

Cultural differences my behind. Black people were forced here (the U.S.) as slaves and have been purposely under educated and locked up in for profit prisons for minor offenses because if slavery can't be legal, then you can at least make laws to target them pretty specifically, red line districts to keep them from living in better neighborhoods with better schools, and keep as many as possible locked up and out of the workforce and the voting booths (where they'd vote for liberals).

When you say "we," who are you referring to, exactly? You write as if you live in the U.S., but you actually live in Canada, a country with a much, much lower incarceration rate.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 10:22 by Shelma1 »

RAW

« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2018, 10:32 »
+1
Well said Shelma1


 

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