Author Topic: This should settle some different opinions (Read 142233 times)

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1050 on:** August 10, 2023, 03:04 »

Quote from: zastavkin on August 10, 2023, 02:07

What is the point of talking about countries from the Customs union if your countries sell their goods in Russia themselves? Look, for example, at the list of brands in one of the hypermarkets of my city in the depths of Siberia: https://mega.ru/shops/novosibirsk
More than a third of Europe's area is located in Russia. More than 15% of the European population is in Russia. Don't you think that sanctions from Europe are more like economic suicide? Business will never go for it and will always find workarounds.
Any war ends with negotiations. The sooner we succeed in bringing all the leaders to the negotiating table, the sooner we will begin to live in peace and restore broken relations.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1051 on:** August 10, 2023, 03:05 »

Quote from: Wilm on August 09, 2023, 16:41

All Russians are bad people.

+100

RalfLiebhold · « **Reply #1052 on:** August 10, 2023, 03:29 »

Stoker, I would like to kindly ask you to delete your last post.
It is not a fine way to take a quote out of context like that in order to impute false claims to others.
The sentence clearly and unmistakably referred to your personal world view. We all know here that this does not represent Wilms' opinion.

Lizard · « **Reply #1053 on:** August 10, 2023, 07:47 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on August 10, 2023, 03:02

....and the EU will also receive sanctions for trade with Russians.

LOL

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1054 on:** August 10, 2023, 07:56 »

Quote from: RalfLiebhold on August 10, 2023, 03:29

We all know here that this does not represent Wilms' opinion.

But this phrase well reflects my opinion and not only mine, but also of millions of Ukrainians and all those who are waging war against modern fascism represented by Russia.
Find at least one Russian who correctly answers the 5 questions I asked, and not only me, but also Zero Talent. These questions are a test for rashism. If a Russian cannot answer them correctly, then he is a rashist and a fascist.

zastavkin · « **Reply #1055 on:** August 10, 2023, 08:46 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on August 10, 2023, 07:56

Find at least one Russian who correctly answers the 5 questions

When a person with Nazi views judges the correctness of the answers, this is not even funny.

Wilm · « **Reply #1056 on:** August 10, 2023, 11:42 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on August 10, 2023, 03:05

Quote from: Wilm on August 09, 2023, 16:41
All Russians are bad people.
+100

The same way you operate, fake news works. Sentences and statements are intentionally taken out of context and thus misrepresented. What you have made out of my statement is repulsive and a disgrace!!!

Corona deniers, conspiracy theorists and supporters of Russian government work with these means of misinformation to a great extent. The Russian government is also doing just that.

And people like you! You work with the same means as the Russian government. And you don't even realize it!

You should be ashamed of your behavior. I terminate all communication with you.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1057 on:** August 10, 2023, 13:24 »

Quote from: Wilm on August 10, 2023, 11:42

Sentences and statements are intentionally taken out of context and thus misrepresented.

I left only the phrase with which I agreed. And I confirmed my agreement with this phrase. What claims?

Quote from: Wilm on August 10, 2023, 11:42

I terminate all communication with you.

Wilm, you have no sense of humor at all.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #1058 on:** August 10, 2023, 15:47 »

An interesting article recently published in The Economist (ending with a great Scholz statement 👏)
👇
Vladimir Putin’s useful idiots
Too many European politicians are failing to confront Russia
Russia’s president surrounded by smaller accolytes
Jul 3rd 2023 | BERLIN

In early may Russia’s ambassador to Germany threw a party to honour Soviet victory in the second world war. Guests at the embassy, a Stalin-era colossus that occupies more German territory than the nearby parliament building, included a host of dignitaries. The last boss of communist East Germany, Egon Krenz, now 86, mingled under the chandeliers with Gerhard Schröder, chancellor of united Germany from 1998 to 2005 (and, more recently, a lobbyist for Russian energy firms). Tino Chrupalla, co-leader of Alternative for Germany (afd), a far-right party, sported a tie in the colours of the Russian Federation.

The event earned a bit of scorn in the German press, but little other notice. Sixteen months into Russia’s war on Ukraine public opinion in Germany, as across Europe, overwhelmingly views Russia as an aggressor to be shunned, and Ukraine as a defender deserving help. The purveyors of Russian influence now stand diminished. Mr Schröder, for instance, chaired the board of the now-closed Nord Stream pipelines that addicted Germany to Russian gas. Last summer Russia shut the pipes, which mysterious saboteurs then blew up. The ex-chancellor has been bumped from clubs, disinvited from his Social Democratic Party’s functions (though he remains a party member), and stripped of government-provided office facilities. As for Mr Chrupalla, the afd leader’s cosiness with Russia did not just annoy German tabloids. Leaked messages reveal dismay among his own party’s mps.

Yet even if Russia’s effort to project persuasive power across Europe has not quite succeeded, neither has it completely failed. A subculture of what Germans dismiss as Putinversteher—sympathisers who “understand” the Russian leader Vladimir Putin—thrives outside the mainstream. Throughout Europe their whispering forms a leitmotif in the rumble of complaint about seemingly unrelated troubles such as inflation, crumbling public services, overbearing regulations and fears of immigration. The grumblers have only just begun to challenge the scale of their governments’ generosity to Ukraine, which by February this year amounted to more than €60bn ($65bn) in economic and military aid from Brussels and the eu’s individual members (and €70bn if Britain is added, a sum roughly equal to America’s contribution). If Ukraine’s fight goes on too long or goes wrong, there are plenty waiting in the wings to take up the blame game.

Europe’s “useful idiots”, a cold-war term for unwitting allies of communism, span a wide spectrum. In politics, parties on both the far right and far left disagree on much; over Ukraine these extremes have often converged in demanding an instant “peace” that would in effect reward Russian aggression with land. In the media and academe, intellectuals still seem happy to ignore evidence of Russia’s imperial intent and its drift into criminality, and to bemoan European entanglement in what they parse as a proxy war between America and Russia, or perhaps, speculating more grandly still, between America and China. And in the world of business, despite multiple rounds of Western sanctions, Russia still has plenty of “friends” too.

Mr Putin’s enablers include several European governments. Viktor Orban, the prime minister of Hungary since 2010, has been the most obvious. The populist strongman has repeatedly criticised Western support for Ukraine and continued Hungary’s imports of Russian gas. His government also refuses to allow the transit of weapons given to Ukraine by Hungary’s fellow members of nato and the eu. Next-door Austria has, more quietly but equally profitably, largely sat out the struggle, too, citing its non-membership of nato and self-appointed role as a bridge between East and West, offering little aid to Ukraine even as its trade with Russia has surged.

Greece, another eu member, is complying with the eu’s sanctions, but has balked at tightening any further those on shipping Russian oil, perhaps because Greek firms happen to pocket so much from the trade. Only recently and under heavy American pressure did Cyprus, an offshore financial haven, shut down some 4,000 local bank accounts held by Russians. Facing less pressure, non-eu countries such as Turkey and Serbia don’t even bother to disguise the lucrative back-door service they provide to Russia.

Some countries have twisted seemingly noble intentions into policies that warm Mr Putin’s heart. Citing its vaunted neutrality, Switzerland has wielded arcane local laws to block the supply of arms to Ukraine, including 96 mothballed Leopard tanks sitting in Italy that happen to belong to a private Swiss firm. Scoring repeated own goals with freedom-of-speech principles, police in Sweden have permitted public burnings of the Koran. This has hugely irked Muslim-majority Turkey, which wields a veto over Sweden’s bid to join nato. And Mr Putin has gleefully trolled the Swedes. On a trip to Dagestan before the Eid holiday at the end of June, he had himself filmed tenderly holding a Koran, as he explained that under Russian law it is a crime to desecrate holy things.

Yet even solid-looking bricks in the would-be European wall of support for Ukraine can crumble. Slovakia, for instance, has been a vital conduit for Western aid and recently pledged its fleet of 13 Soviet-era Mig-29 fighter jets to the Ukrainian air force. But polls show that the party of Robert Fico, a Russophile leftist who has blamed “Ukrainian fascists” for provoking Mr Putin, looks likely to win national elections scheduled for September.

France is a linchpin of both nato and the eu. But a French parliamentary panel recently scolded Marine Le Pen, the closest challenger to President Emmanuel Macron in last year’s election, for parroting Russian propaganda following its annexation of Crimea in 2014. Ms Le Pen strenuously denies that her defence of Mr Putin had anything to do with the €9m in loans her party received that year from Russian-controlled banks. She has condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, but last October, seven months into the war, she declared that sanctions on Russia were not working.

In Italy, although the hard-right prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, is a strong supporter of Ukraine, Matteo Salvini, who leads the second-biggest party in her coalition, is another opponent of sanctions and, at least up until the invasion, was a declared fan of Mr Putin’s.

Germany, like France, seems a strong pillar. Yet the afd, bluntly described by the head of the country’s internal intelligence agency as a propagator of Russian narratives, has been surging in the polls. It is now in a dead tie for second place with the ruling Social Democrats. At the opposite political pole Sahra Wagenknecht, a telegenic leftist and at-all-costs peacenik, says pollsters tell her she could win 19-30% of a German national vote. Although public support for helping Ukraine remains strong, the trend is drifting downwards.

Useful-idiot narratives are surprisingly resilient. Their main points—that nato “provoked” Russia’s repeated attacks on and eventual invasion of Ukraine, that Ukraine is an artificial entity created on land that is rightfully Russia’s, and that America pours oil on this fire to sell weapons and sustain its global hegemony—echo in various ways. One is what Italians call benaltrismo or whataboutery: nato attacked Serbia in 1999 and Libya in 2011, plus America invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, so what’s the big deal if Russia misbehaves? Another variety is dietrismo, the notion that there must be some “inside” story behind events. Writing in the New Left Review, Wolfgang Streeck, a German sociologist, posits that the hidden purpose of the crisis is to set the stage for putting a fearful eu under the thumb of a pumped-up nato.

What seems to link Europe’s far right, far left and “intellectual” opposition to Western policy is something simpler, however. It is a hoary, cold-war-style anti-Americanism. The East German-born Mr Chrupalla, for instance, insists the Amis have profited from Ukraine’s war by forcing Germany to switch from piped Russian natural gas to costlier liquified gas shipped from America. This is a trap, he hints, because imported American energy is so much more expensive that German manufacturers will have to shift production to America. Ms Wagenknecht, his left-wing rival, believes America forced the war on Russia by attempting to pull Ukraine into its “sphere of influence”.

At a recent political rally near Berlin Olaf Scholz, Germany’s chancellor, found himself heckled by a chorus of beefy peaceniks shouting “Warmonger!” Normally polite, soft-spoken and unflappable, Mr Scholz roared back into the microphone that it was Mr Putin who wanted to destroy and conquer Ukraine. “If you loudmouths had even a little bit of brain, you would know the real warmonger!”

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1059 on:** August 10, 2023, 16:52 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 10, 2023, 15:47

An interesting article recently published in The Economist (ending with a great Scholz statement 👏)
👇
that Ukraine is an artificial entity created on land that is rightfully Russia’s

It's time for the world media to say that when Kyiv was, Moscow was not even in the project yet. Muscovy arose on the lands previously owned by Ukrainians.
Russians are not Slavs at all, they are Asians.

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 10, 2023, 15:47

At a recent political rally near Berlin Olaf Scholz, Germany’s chancellor, found himself heckled by a chorus of beefy peaceniks shouting “Warmonger!” Normally polite, soft-spoken and unflappable, Mr Scholz roared back into the microphone that it was Mr Putin who wanted to destroy and conquer Ukraine. “If you loudmouths had even a little bit of brain, you would know the real warmonger!” [/i]

I would like that in addition to loud and beautiful words, Scholz did something against the Russians. He supplied weapons to Ukraine, stopped trade with Russia.

Big Toe · « **Reply #1060 on:** August 10, 2023, 19:04 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 09, 2023, 20:24

My point was about exports to Kyrgyzstan and Armenia and to countries that are in the custom union with russia.
In this case, the same embargo applied to russia must be applied to these countries too, unless they choose to break away from this union. It's a simple, logical, and straightforward solution.

You are diverting the focus toward other cases. Is this another form of #whataboutism? "Yes, you talk about cheating through Kyrgystan, but #whatabout cheating through China"?

Anyway... let me fall for that.
I agree, it is more complicated, but if there is political will, this cheating can be stopped too. Germany and the EU have all the legal tools needed to prevent German and EU companies to export specific goods ending up in russia, through all 3rd countries acting as a proxy.

Even if there are legal loopholes, if there is political will, these loopholes can be closed.

This has nothing to do with whataboutism, it is just a question of whether stopping trade the former Sowjet Republics will close the loopholes or not and I tried to explain why I think it will not close.

It also doesn't matter, whether those countries are in a customs union with Russia or not. Russia can just as easily import stuff through other countries, as long as they don't have implemented the same sanctions as th EU and the USA. We are not talking weapons or other restricted material here, after all.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #1061 on:** August 10, 2023, 19:25 »

No. It's definitely not the same.

Custom union means zero border control, no checks whatsoever, and zero additional expenses.
This is why it's much easier for German and EU companies to continue to supply the russian war machine through these proxies.

I am not saying that a similar embargo applied to these russian puppet states (as currently applied to russia itself) will stop the smuggling. But it will make it more difficult and more expensive, if alternatives routes must be found. Even in the absence of additional political will to go all the way, the smuggling will be reduced.

This is no different than any common law. No law is stopping bad people from doing bad things, if the payoff is worth the risks.
And yet, we do have laws in a civilized society, because well-defined laws are making bad things too expensive.

Injustice for all · « **Reply #1062 on:** August 10, 2023, 19:30 »

Quote from: RalfLiebhold on August 09, 2023, 15:50

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 09, 2023, 15:37
You presented a graph about Italy when the discussion was about Germany.
That's basically the definition of whataboutism.

This is from the same category as "Yes, russia invaded Ukraine, but what about the US invading Irak"?
Or: "Yes russia is an colonial power, but whatabout the US colonizing a continent".... etc.

Finally, because I don't think we're coming together here.
These exports are to be stopped without question. I posted the chart to show that this is not an exclusive German problem, but a European problem.
But you have just unpacked the big Whataboutism show here.

Yes,there are sadly many European companies being investigated for indirectly trading with Moscow and circumventing sanctions,triangulating with Maldives,India and Armenia and other countries.

in 2022,53 million of dollars of USA semiconductors passed through the Maldives on their way to Moscow….so what?

United States is not spotless,just as Italy is not or Germany or any other NATO country,there are no knights in shining armor,often integrity fails when it comes to money…lots of money!

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1063 on:** August 11, 2023, 02:22 »

Quote from: Big Toe on August 10, 2023, 19:04

We are not talking weapons or other restricted material here, after all.

That's what we're talking about. The Russians buy what they need to produce missiles, drones and other military equipment.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1064 on:** August 11, 2023, 02:24 »

Quote from: Injustice for all on August 10, 2023, 19:30

Quote from: RalfLiebhold on August 09, 2023, 15:50
Quote from: Zero Talent on August 09, 2023, 15:37
You presented a graph about Italy when the discussion was about Germany.
That's basically the definition of whataboutism.

This is from the same category as "Yes, russia invaded Ukraine, but what about the US invading Irak"?
Or: "Yes russia is an colonial power, but whatabout the US colonizing a continent".... etc.

Finally, because I don't think we're coming together here.
These exports are to be stopped without question. I posted the chart to show that this is not an exclusive German problem, but a European problem.
But you have just unpacked the big Whataboutism show here.

Yes,there are sadly many European companies being investigated for indirectly trading with Moscow and circumventing sanctions,triangulating with Maldives,India and Armenia and other countries.

in 2022,53 million of dollars of USA semiconductors passed through the Maldives on their way to Moscow….so what?

United States is not spotless,just as Italy is not or Germany or any other NATO country,there are no knights in shining armor,often integrity fails when it comes to money…lots of money!

The USSR was behind an iron wall. Russia and all the countries that support it should be behind the iron wall. There is a third world war with fascism, if you continue to support the Russians and China, it will end very badly for the world. All politicians who promote trade with the Russians should be put in jail. Democrats in the US have not yet imposed sanctions on countries that supply Russia. So I wouldn't be surprised if the Democrats lose the election.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1065 on:** August 11, 2023, 02:26 »

The problem is not only with Scholz, the problem is with the Germans who do not protest against the policies of their government. Here the Germans tell me how good the Russians are.

zastavkin · « **Reply #1066 on:** August 11, 2023, 05:10 »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/10/poland-president-duda-ukraine-interview/
“It is very simple,” Polish President Andrzej Duda told me last week. “Right now, Russian imperialism can be stopped cheaply, because American soldiers are not dying.”
How much is hidden behind this phrase...

Zero Talent · « **Reply #1067 on:** August 11, 2023, 07:38 »

Quote from: zastavkin on August 11, 2023, 05:10

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/10/poland-president-duda-ukraine-interview/
“It is very simple,” Polish President Andrzej Duda told me last week. “Right now, Russian imperialism can be stopped cheaply, because American soldiers are not dying.”
How much is hidden behind this phrase...

russian imperialism is in plain sight, not hidden behind that phrase.

It's so sad that Ukrainians have to suffer and die defending their country against an imperialist aggressor. That's what's hidden behind that phrase.

Also what is hidden is russia's nationalist-fascist regime (n*zism in short) sadly, broadly supported by the russian civilian society.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1068 on:** August 11, 2023, 10:40 »

Why is Russia not disconnected from the global Internet?
Russians pose a threat to the civilized world:
1. They spread Russian propaganda on social networks and forums.
2. They interfere in the elections of other countries.
3. They inflict hacker strikes on any objects.
4. They raise the Russian economy.
5. Using the Internet, the Russians recruit new KGB agents and keep in touch with existing ones.
etc. and so on.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1069 on:** August 11, 2023, 11:10 »

Statistics about Republican support for Ukraine and Biden's very weak policy. Most Republicans support Ukraine and against the Russians!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/27/republicans-support-ukraine-war/

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1070 on:** August 11, 2023, 11:38 »

Bakhmut, Ukraine.
Armed Forces of Ukraine liquidate Russian terrorists from Altai (Siberia). There are English subtitles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7Ufctf8A7c

Russian losses: 6 – killed, 21 – wounded. Another 8 occupiers were captured.

This is a video of the combat operation of the soldiers of the Third Assault in the Bakhmut direction, as a result of which 1,200 meters of Ukrainian land was liberated. It was also possible to cut the logistics hub, stopping the active defense of the enemy on the eastern bank of the Siverskyi-Donets-Donbas canal.

Glory to Ukraine!

Zero Talent · « **Reply #1071 on:** August 11, 2023, 12:48 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on August 11, 2023, 11:10

Statistics about Republican support for Ukraine and Biden's very weak policy. Most Republicans support Ukraine and against the Russians!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/27/republicans-support-ukraine-war/

... and yet, what you fail or don't want to understand (ostrich syndrome?) is that those who initiated the anti-Ukraine amendments were Republicans: Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene, both HUGE trump supporters, because they think alike and their policies are identical.

You also fail or don't want to understand (ostrich syndrome?) that ALL those 70+ who voted in favor of those anti-Ukraine amendments were Republicans, while NONE ( = ZERO) of the elected Democrats supported them.

You also fail or don't want to understand (ostrich syndrome?) that if 59% of Americans support continued U.S. military assistance for Ukraine, but only 50% of the Republicans, this means that we rather have more Ukraine skeptics among Republicans than Democrats.

You also fail or don't want to understand (ostrich syndrome?) that trump will win the GoP nomination.

You also fail or don't want to understand (ostrich syndrome?) that trump claims he’ll end the war in 24 hours. And that's by asking Ukrainians to give up their lands or else stop all US aid.

Slava Ukraini!

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1072 on:** August 12, 2023, 01:41 »

Zero Talent, I have provided a link to the stats. I do not argue with your phrases, because I do not claim the opposite. I don't care about Trump and his supporters, I wrote about the Republicans.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1073 on:** August 12, 2023, 02:31 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 11, 2023, 12:48

You also fail or don't want to understand (ostrich syndrome?) that trump claims he’ll end the war in 24 hours. And that's by asking Ukrainians to give up their lands or else stop all US aid.

You don't have to listen to what the politicians say. We need to look at what will happen under their rule. The point is that Biden and Scholz sing songs in defense of Ukraine, but at the same time they do not give Ukraine the necessary weapons, forbid them to be used where necessary. Germany trades with the Russians.
If Trump becomes president, he will sign whatever the Republicans tell him to sign. And while he can say any idiocy, it will not matter. Trump is just a campaign clown who brings the Republicans to power.
I think the Republicans will strengthen sanctions against Russia, give more weapons to Ukraine. Also, sanctions will be imposed against Germany and other countries supporting the Russians.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #1074 on:** August 12, 2023, 05:06 »

The policy of the Democrats towards Ukraine is the daily sacrifice of Ukrainians. The democrats have no goal of destroying the Russian army, destroying Russia, surrounding it with an iron wall. Ukraine is supplied with just enough weapons so that Ukraine cannot destroy the Russian occupiers. The Democrats are constantly making various deals with the Russians, they are trading on blood. Many probably are satisfied with this, only Ukrainians are not satisfied with this. Why should Ukrainians sacrifice themselves every day for the sake of peace in other countries?

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Author Topic: This should settle some different opinions (Read 142233 times)

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Lizard

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Wilm

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Zero Talent

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Big Toe

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Injustice for all

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