Quote from: cascoly on April 06, 2023, 20:17

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 05, 2023, 16:44

...While I'm no fan of all the Hitler history, he was appointed, in 1933, not elected.

Actually, while you & I disagree on many political topics, the only way I see to resolve them is over several evenings with bottles of Lagavullin (or local IPA if on a budget)

Probably not as much or as many as you might think. People on the left say I'm too far right and people on the right say I'm too far left. It's a matter of viewing point and perspective.    Lagavullin is just right and fits my tastes. Ardbeg, Talisker or Highland Park.

Quote from: stoker2014 on April 07, 2023, 03:10

It would be interesting to read those who support Trump, why, and how it can be supported at all.

How can they not support Trump, he wants to make America great again. The country is divided close to 50-50, how can one side be claiming to be smarter, better or more popular than the other? You should ask why those others who are antiamerican support socialism or the overthrow of their government.

And history has actually warned us. As a German, I fervently hope and pray that I will not have to experience the times when someone should get the idea to make Germany great again! I hope people understand what I mean.

The playbook goes like this: labeling, taking sides, de-humanizing the other side, attack/defense, hatred, violence. Divide and conquer.

Quote from: alan b traehern on April 07, 2023, 07:08

Quote from: stoker2014 on April 07, 2023, 03:10

It would be interesting to read those who support Trump, why, and how it can be supported at all.

How can they not support Trump, he wants to make America great again. The country is divided close to 50-50, how can one side be claiming to be smarter, better or more popular than the other? You should ask why those others who are antiamerican support socialism or the overthrow of their government.

Who ever said you didn't have a sense of humour?! Good one!

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 08, 2023, 06:34

Quote from: Annie on April 07, 2023, 15:21

The playbook goes like this: labeling, taking sides, de-humanizing the other side, attack/defense, hatred, violence. Divide and conquer.

Good point, Annie.
Some of the most notorious cases of labeling and dehumanizing were:

- Before the Rwandan genocide, Tutsis were labeled �cockroaches" by the Hutus, in other words, just vermin that needed to be eradicated.
- Before the Armenian deportation and genocide, Turks called the Armenians, �dangerous microbes.�
- During the the Holocaust, Germans described Jews as �Untermenschen,� or subhumans. Roma people were "Gypsy mongrels" and together with the Jews were considered "enemies of the racial state"

It's worth remembering that anti-communist dissidents were labeled "enemies of the people", in the former communist countries. That's from the same playbook as labeling "anti-american" a majority of US citizens who reject and rejected Trump twice, in democratic elections (note that the american press was also labeled "enemy of the people", by Trump himself)

Don't want to choose sides here but for pure balance I will remind you that Hillary Clinton called Trump voters xenophobic and misogynistic and most of all a "Basket of deplorables". Left polticians have a habit of calling anyone, that don't agree with them, a threat to democracy. You can call out all things of the right you dislike but remember that the left uses actually the same words and phrases as they do.

No difference. It's, once again, political retoric.

It's just that when the other one says it, you find it's horrible and it's awful but if your side says it it's a laugh and the truth, right? And that goes for both sides.

What you think is right and good for you doesn't mean it's the truth, is good for another or automatically respects another persons wishes.

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 08, 2023, 06:34

Quote from: Annie on April 07, 2023, 15:21

The playbook goes like this: labeling, taking sides, de-humanizing the other side, attack/defense, hatred, violence. Divide and conquer.

Good point, Annie.
Some of the most notorious cases of labeling and dehumanizing were:

- Before the Rwandan genocide, Tutsis were labeled �cockroaches" by the Hutus, in other words, just vermin that needed to be eradicated.
- Before the Armenian deportation and genocide, Turks called the Armenians, �dangerous microbes.�
- During the the Holocaust, Germans described Jews as �Untermenschen,� or subhumans. Roma people were "Gypsy mongrels" and together with the Jews were considered "enemies of the racial state"

It's worth remembering that anti-communist dissidents were labeled "enemies of the people", in the former communist countries. That's from the same playbook as labeling "anti-american" a majority of US citizens who reject and rejected Trump twice, in democratic elections (note that the american press was also labeled "enemy of the people", by Trump himself)

Yes, I think the Tutsis, and Jews in the 1930s, issues are perfect examples of this. By calling them cockroaches and dehumanizing them, they allow people to eventually commit extremely violent crimes against them because they are not 'real people'. Its a conditioning process.

I think xenophobia is a real issue and exists whenever there is a lot of underlining fears and scarcity (re. Wilm's story of 1930s Germany above) and should be addressed. And its still behind a lot of things today. Brexit (which is now destroying Britain's economy), Orban used it to win election in Hungary (a Hungarian friend was describing how bad Hungary is now under his rule). Trump during his first presidential campaign speeches: Mexican immigrants are rapists.

A friend showed me a QAnon 'recruitment' video a while ago - not to recruit me but to show how bad it was. It was about the time I first watched that "Why We Hate" documentary I mentioned above, and I could immediately see the pattern. The first five minutes of this video was really dark and menacing, preying on people's fears. The first few minutes! There it was!

Of course, if you don't have those fears, then you don't fall victim to it. But there is obviously a large part of society that do, and these issues need to be addressed - not amplifying the fears themselves and using them for political advantage and control.

Last night I started watching "Why We Hate" again and its very insightful. For any Aussies reading this, I finally found it on SBS On-Demand, but it expires in a couple of days' time. There's 6 episodes so you will need time for a marathon. Not sure where else its showing. It was first aired on the Discovery channel, I believe.

There is nothing wrong with being either a liberal or a conservative, but I just want people to become aware of manipulative politicians and the tell-tale signs. Vote for leaders that have a strong sense of morality. They may not be as 'charismatic' as these other ones - but they will have your real needs close to their heart.

Anyway, I could go on and on about this, but I won't take up any more of people's time.

Quote from: SVH on April 08, 2023, 12:58

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 08, 2023, 06:34

Quote from: Annie on April 07, 2023, 15:21

The playbook goes like this: labeling, taking sides, de-humanizing the other side, attack/defense, hatred, violence. Divide and conquer.

Good point, Annie.
Some of the most notorious cases of labeling and dehumanizing were:

- Before the Rwandan genocide, Tutsis were labeled �cockroaches" by the Hutus, in other words, just vermin that needed to be eradicated.
- Before the Armenian deportation and genocide, Turks called the Armenians, �dangerous microbes.�
- During the the Holocaust, Germans described Jews as �Untermenschen,� or subhumans. Roma people were "Gypsy mongrels" and together with the Jews were considered "enemies of the racial state"

It's worth remembering that anti-communist dissidents were labeled "enemies of the people", in the former communist countries. That's from the same playbook as labeling "anti-american" a majority of US citizens who reject and rejected Trump twice, in democratic elections (note that the american press was also labeled "enemy of the people", by Trump himself)

Don't want to choose sides here but for pure balance I will remind you that Hillary Clinton called Trump voters xenophobic and misogynistic and most of all a "Basket of deplorables". Left polticians have a habit of calling anyone, that don't agree with them, a threat to democracy. You can call out all things of the right you dislike but remember that the left uses actually the same words and phrases as they do.

No difference. It's, once again, political retoric.

It's just that when the other one says it, you find it's horrible and it's awful but if your side says it it's a laugh and the truth, right? And that goes for both sides.

What you think is right and good for you doesn't mean it's the truth, is good for another or automatically respects another persons wishes.

I know about the "deplorables", but I didn't hear the other labels, explicitly mentioned.

Anyway, "deplorable" comes from the French "pleurer" meaning to weep, to cry out, in other words, the hopeless state of those people made her lament and weep.
That shows concern and care and it's rather harmless and fundamentally different than labeling someone the "enemy of the state" or "anti-American" (which is basically the same). 

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 08, 2023, 13:43

Quote from: SVH on April 08, 2023, 12:58

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 08, 2023, 06:34

Quote from: Annie on April 07, 2023, 15:21

The playbook goes like this: labeling, taking sides, de-humanizing the other side, attack/defense, hatred, violence. Divide and conquer.

Good point, Annie.
Some of the most notorious cases of labeling and dehumanizing were:

- Before the Rwandan genocide, Tutsis were labeled �cockroaches" by the Hutus, in other words, just vermin that needed to be eradicated.
- Before the Armenian deportation and genocide, Turks called the Armenians, �dangerous microbes.�
- During the the Holocaust, Germans described Jews as �Untermenschen,� or subhumans. Roma people were "Gypsy mongrels" and together with the Jews were considered "enemies of the racial state"

It's worth remembering that anti-communist dissidents were labeled "enemies of the people", in the former communist countries. That's from the same playbook as labeling "anti-american" a majority of US citizens who reject and rejected Trump twice, in democratic elections (note that the american press was also labeled "enemy of the people", by Trump himself)

Don't want to choose sides here but for pure balance I will remind you that Hillary Clinton called Trump voters xenophobic and misogynistic and most of all a "Basket of deplorables". Left polticians have a habit of calling anyone, that don't agree with them, a threat to democracy. You can call out all things of the right you dislike but remember that the left uses actually the same words and phrases as they do.

No difference. It's, once again, political retoric.

It's just that when the other one says it, you find it's horrible and it's awful but if your side says it it's a laugh and the truth, right? And that goes for both sides.

What you think is right and good for you doesn't mean it's the truth, is good for another or automatically respects another persons wishes.

I know about the "deplorables", but I didn't hear the other labels, explicitly mentioned.

Anyway, "deplorable" comes from the French "pleurer" meaning to weep, to cry out, in other words, the hopeless state of those people made her lament and weep.
That shows concern and care and it's rather harmless and fundamentally different than labeling someone the "enemy of the state" or "anti-American" (which is basically the same). 

To refresh your memory watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCHJVE9trSM and watch closely at the sign in front of her stating "stronger together". So, right is horrible but don't pretend left is shy from using the same insults, hypocrisy and disrespect. All the same.

And feeling sorry for someone else with a different opinion is actually the most insulting thing you can think of. It's way beyond having no respect for another person.

Quote from: U11 on April 07, 2023, 20:29

Quote from: Wilm on April 07, 2023, 12:55

And history has actually warned us. As a German, I fervently hope and pray that I will not have to experience the times when someone should get the idea to make Germany great again! I hope people understand what I mean.

unfortunately I understand your message as if you equal a desire of the people to have their country independent and strong to Hitler time nazism

If you look at what led to Hitler coming to power back then, I can definitely see parallels:

- Due to the defeat in the First World War, the Germans felt their nation was weak.
- There was a world economic crisis with high inflation.
- As a result, there were many unemployed.
- The political wings drifted further and further to the extremes: the National Socialists and the Communists became stronger and stronger and organized more and more uprisings. They conveyed to the people that they could achieve economic and political stability and make Germany great again.
- The first coups against democracy (Weimar Republic) took place.
- Conspiracy theories intensified. One of them was the "stab in the back" legend. This myth said that Germany had lost the war not on the battlefield, but through "treason within." Jews, Social Democrats and Communists were made responsible for this. From the point of view of the National Socialists, it could not be that the great and strong Germans had lost the war on the battlefield. Therefore, another reason had to be invented so that they would no longer feel weak.

We should all keep our eyes vigilantly open so that history does not repeat itself. Because some of the patterns from back then I unfortunately already recognize in Lots of places around the globe.

Quote from: stoker2014 on April 09, 2023, 10:20

Quote from: Wilm on April 08, 2023, 04:28

Quote from: U11 on April 07, 2023, 20:29

Quote from: Wilm on April 07, 2023, 12:55

And history has actually warned us. As a German, I fervently hope and pray that I will not have to experience the times when someone should get the idea to make Germany great again! I hope people understand what I mean.

unfortunately I understand your message as if you equal a desire of the people to have their country independent and strong to Hitler time nazism

If you look at what led to Hitler coming to power back then, I can definitely see parallels:

- Due to the defeat in the First World War, the Germans felt their nation was weak.
- There was a world economic crisis with high inflation.
- As a result, there were many unemployed.
- The political wings drifted further and further to the extremes: the National Socialists and the Communists became stronger and stronger and organized more and more uprisings. They conveyed to the people that they could achieve economic and political stability and make Germany great again.
- The first coups against democracy (Weimar Republic) took place.
- Conspiracy theories intensified. One of them was the "stab in the back" legend. This myth said that Germany had lost the war not on the battlefield, but through "treason within." Jews, Social Democrats and Communists were made responsible for this. From the point of view of the National Socialists, it could not be that the great and strong Germans had lost the war on the battlefield. Therefore, another reason had to be invented so that they would no longer feel weak.

We should all keep our eyes vigilantly open so that history does not repeat itself. Because some of the patterns from back then I unfortunately already recognize in Lots of places around the globe.

All these are just factors. In fact, all European countries around, the USA, Great Britain, etc. are to blame. Everyone is to blame for not wanting to see that the * came to power, did not apply sanctions and did not kill the snake in the bud. We see the same thing now, in the early 90s it was possible to apply sanctions to Russia, but this was not done and until the last everyone traded with Russia, and Merkel was generally a KGB agent.
The same is true for China.

Aha, Merkel was a KGB agent? That's news to me. You obviously know more than I do.

Quote from: Wilm on April 09, 2023, 10:54

Quote from: stoker2014 on April 09, 2023, 10:20

Quote from: Wilm on April 08, 2023, 04:28

Quote from: U11 on April 07, 2023, 20:29

Quote from: Wilm on April 07, 2023, 12:55

And history has actually warned us. As a German, I fervently hope and pray that I will not have to experience the times when someone should get the idea to make Germany great again! I hope people understand what I mean.

unfortunately I understand your message as if you equal a desire of the people to have their country independent and strong to Hitler time nazism

If you look at what led to Hitler coming to power back then, I can definitely see parallels:

- Due to the defeat in the First World War, the Germans felt their nation was weak.
- There was a world economic crisis with high inflation.
- As a result, there were many unemployed.
- The political wings drifted further and further to the extremes: the National Socialists and the Communists became stronger and stronger and organized more and more uprisings. They conveyed to the people that they could achieve economic and political stability and make Germany great again.
- The first coups against democracy (Weimar Republic) took place.
- Conspiracy theories intensified. One of them was the "stab in the back" legend. This myth said that Germany had lost the war not on the battlefield, but through "treason within." Jews, Social Democrats and Communists were made responsible for this. From the point of view of the National Socialists, it could not be that the great and strong Germans had lost the war on the battlefield. Therefore, another reason had to be invented so that they would no longer feel weak.

We should all keep our eyes vigilantly open so that history does not repeat itself. Because some of the patterns from back then I unfortunately already recognize in Lots of places around the globe.

All these are just factors. In fact, all European countries around, the USA, Great Britain, etc. are to blame. Everyone is to blame for not wanting to see that the * came to power, did not apply sanctions and did not kill the snake in the bud. We see the same thing now, in the early 90s it was possible to apply sanctions to Russia, but this was not done and until the last everyone traded with Russia, and Merkel was generally a KGB agent.
The same is true for China.

Aha, Merkel was a KGB agent? That's news to me. You obviously know more than I do.

This is obvious, just as all her politics and connections with Putin are obvious. Read her biography, her father's biography. She worked for the Kremlin all her life, not officially of course.

She grew up in the GDR, which emerged from the Soviet occupation zone.