Unlike what Russia might say and want, in the end you have to come up with a solution to which all parties will agree. I am not sure if the river Dnjepr will be the dividing line but splitting up the country will most likely be the solution to end the conflict. The sooner the better, I guess. It has no sense pouring weapons into the conflict. Even if Ukraine, with help of NATO countries, will ever win, which is quite unlikely, you will still have resurgents in the east unless they were all slaughtered or expelled. But that would be ethnic cleansing or not? Each day that people do not move to the negotiation table more lives will be unnecessary lost. And not everybody has the same political agenda here.

russia has no right to have any say in re-drawing the borders of any sovereign country. Not Ukraine, not Georgia, not Moldova, not the Baltic countries, not Poland nor Romania. Not even Belarus.

Quote from: SVH on May 04, 2023, 10:59

Unlike what Russia might say and want, in the end you have to come up with a solution to which all parties will agree. I am not sure if the river Dnjepr will be the dividing line but splitting up the country will most likely be the solution to end the conflict. The sooner the better, I guess. It has no sense pouring weapons into the conflict. Even if Ukraine, with help of NATO countries, will ever win, which is quite unlikely, you will still have resurgents in the east unless they were all slaughtered or expelled. But that would be ethnic cleansing or not? Each day that people do not move to the negotiation table more lives will be unnecessary lost. And not everybody has the same political agenda here.

russia has no right to have any say in re-drawing the borders of any sovereign country. Not Ukraine, not Georgia, not Moldova, not the Baltic countries, not Poland nor Romania. Not even Belarus.

There is and there was NO civil war, in eastern Ukraine. There were russian troops with no insignia and a bunch of russian provocateurs.
It was an invasion by an imperialist power from the very begining, when their puppet president was toppled and Ukraine stopped being a russian colony/vassal.

This is why the Minsk agreement explicitly asked for the withdrawal of foreign troops, point russia failed to comply with, because they claimed they had no troops there.
Instead, they cynically accused Ukraine for not compying with the agreement. 

And this is the propagada you sadly believe and propagate further 

PS. Minsk agreement reminder:
9. Restoration of full control of the state border by the government of Ukraine.
10. Withdrawal of all foreign armed formations, military equipment and mercenaries

Edit: This old british comedy is doing a good job in explaining the russian "salami tactics" applied in Ukraine:
https://youtu.be/o861Ka9TtT4

Quote from: SVH on May 04, 2023, 10:59

Quote from: Wilm on May 04, 2023, 03:19

Quote from: SVH on May 03, 2023, 16:06

Quote from: Wilm on May 02, 2023, 16:56

Quote from: SVH on May 02, 2023, 12:36

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 30, 2023, 17:52

Quote from: SVH on April 30, 2023, 14:59

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 29, 2023, 06:50

Yes, but what about....

Here you are:
https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+baghdad+after+bombing+by+usa&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjP7faYstL-AhX5y7sIHbxlAHYQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1536&bih=761&dpr=2.5

7,186 civilians killed during "shock and awe". The US is more effective than Russia. It took them not even two months and Russia took about eight months to do it. Hats of for the USA.

Quote from: SVH on April 30, 2023, 16:06

I did not gave permission to mingle into this war as an European civilian nor did I gave permission to mingle into political affairs before their civil war ten years back.

You only prove my point.

Instead of being horrified by those attrocities, you justify them.
Through cheap whatabaoutism, you are rationalizing murder, torture, and human suffering happening, next door, right now, under your eyes

You have become "comfortably numb".

.. and it's not a civil war, but an egregious aggression of a sovereign country by an imperialist power.

You are the proof that propaganda is effective.

 

But seriously, why intervene in Yugoslavia and split the country up in regions where ethnic people are in the majority? It seems to work (although they still hate each other) but at least it's kind of stable.

The model of Yugoslavia did not work and is history. Precisely because cultures, traditions, ethnic groups and religions that did not fit together had - incorrectly - been united under one roof.

And from my point of view, this is exactly the reason why the Great Russian Empire does not work either and did not work in the past. Because many regions could not identify with the Russian soul. That's why the empire disintegrated. That is why Putin will not succeed in restoring it to its former greatness. And certainly not by attacking the countries that he would like to see as part of the great empire again. Now the rift is even deeper than it has ever been in history.

Exactly. Yugoslavia did not work, neither will Ukraine as a whole. That was my point. Split it up like we did with Yugoslavia. I am not saying the eastern part should be part of Russia but give it, it's own country, which then can relate to which ever country it likes, as well as the western part. That will be the end solution to this war and stop the unnecessary loss of lives.

This is impossible because:

2022
8:33 p.m.: Russian President Vladimir Putin called Ukraine a "historic Russian territory" in a televised address to the nation Monday night. The country is "an integral part of its own history," the head of state said. Ukraine has no tradition of statehood, he added. The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, he said, put Russia in a difficult position. In its aftermath, he said, it was a mistake to allow Ukraine and other Soviet republics to become independent. "We gave these republics the right to leave the union without conditions," Putin said. "This is simply madness."

It is not about eastern Ukraine at all, but about all of Ukraine - and many other now independent states of the former Soviet Union.

In this respect, what you write cannot be a solution.

Unlike what Russia might say and want, in the end you have to come up with a solution to which all parties will agree. I am not sure if the river Dnjepr will be the dividing line but splitting up the country will most likely be the solution to end the conflict. The sooner the better, I guess. It has no sense pouring weapons into the conflict. Even if Ukraine, with help of NATO countries, will ever win, which is quite unlikely, you will still have resurgents in the east unless they were all slaughtered or expelled. But that would be ethnic cleansing or not? Each day that people do not move to the negotiation table more lives will be unnecessary lost. And not everybody has the same political agenda here.

The ethnic cleansing operations are already underway. Ukrainian children are being abducted and handed over to Russian families. Do you have children? Do you have the slightest idea what this means?

And, as can be seen from Putin's statement, the Dnieper is not something that is up for discussion, but the Soviet Union at the size it was before 1991.
Which was what Yugoslavia was - namely a potpourri of the most diverse ethnicities, cultures, traditions and religions. Which also then - as in Yugoslavia - did not work and will not work. As far as Yugoslavia is concerned, you have already admitted that yourself.

Quote from: SVH on May 04, 2023, 14:42

Quote from: Zero Talent on May 04, 2023, 11:24

Quote from: SVH on May 04, 2023, 10:59

Unlike what Russia might say and want, in the end you have to come up with a solution to which all parties will agree. I am not sure if the river Dnjepr will be the dividing line but splitting up the country will most likely be the solution to end the conflict. The sooner the better, I guess. It has no sense pouring weapons into the conflict. Even if Ukraine, with help of NATO countries, will ever win, which is quite unlikely, you will still have resurgents in the east unless they were all slaughtered or expelled. But that would be ethnic cleansing or not? Each day that people do not move to the negotiation table more lives will be unnecessary lost. And not everybody has the same political agenda here.

russia has no right to have any say in re-drawing the borders of any sovereign country. Not Ukraine, not Georgia, not Moldova, not the Baltic countries, not Poland nor Romania. Not even Belarus.

There is and there was NO civil war, in eastern Ukraine. There were russian troops with no insignia and a bunch of russian provocateurs.
It was an invasion by an imperialist power from the very begining, when their puppet president was toppled and Ukraine stopped being a russian colony/vassal.

This is why the Minsk agreement explicitly asked for the withdrawal of foreign troops, point russia failed to comply with, because they claimed they had no troops there.
Instead, they cynically accused Ukraine for not compying with the agreement. 

And this is the propagada you sadly believe and propagate further 

PS. Minsk agreement reminder:
9. Restoration of full control of the state border by the government of Ukraine.
10. Withdrawal of all foreign armed formations, military equipment and mercenaries

Edit: This old british comedy is doing a good job in explaining the russian "salami tactics" applied in Ukraine:
https://youtu.be/o861Ka9TtT4

Really Zero? An elected (you can question if the election was fair or not) was ousted by a revolt supported by the EU and the USA. Those powers openly mingled in the sovereign affairs of a country. Fine, the western part didn't want to deal with Russia anymore and wanted to join the West. I can acknowledge that, I live there as well. But there were surely people in the east that were not pleased with this coup/uprising. Don't they have a say in this? They were and are part of the same country as well. Or were they all held at gunpoint by the russians? C'mon Zero. That is not what happened. If so, why on earth would Germany and France have arranged the Minsk agreements in the first place? Are they all on the side of Russia? Can't follow your reasoning anymore.
I understand that the USA has no interest in ending this war soon because they have benefits in prolonging it. But in the end you will have to find a solution to a problem that was already there before Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. I am not agreeing with the war or the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine but also not with the mingling ten years ago by the EU and the USA and that people in the east of Ukraine have been totally disregarded since then. It is not that Russia did not complain about this for many years. Still not an excuse for what they are doing now but western countries ignoring these concerns an waiving them away are guilty here as well. I am just practical here and looking at the facts and how they are played out.
And it surprises me that nobody is looking at peace negotiations here and can only think of pouring more weapons in this war. It is probably not in their interest. Does this help the Ukranian people, west or east?

Yes, really. That's exactly what happened.
Popular revolts happen even in democratic countries leading to government resignations. Why are you surprised that a revolt happend in a colony?
Moreover, Yanukovych, the puppet president, unharmed, decided to flee to russia (where else?)

With no stable Ukrainian government in place, russia seized the opportunity and annexed Crimea (breaking the promise made 10 years prior when they signed the Budapest memorandum)

Then separatists directed and financed by the russian security services, occupied several government buildings in Donbas (remember the more recent Capitol insurection, in the USA?)

After the Ukrainian government restored order, russia changed tactics and initiated the well know covert invasion, sending in soldiers with no insignia, weapons and starting the real war (thus not a civil war as you want to believe).

Read the Minsk agreement properly, and you will see that there was a very large autonomy granted to the eastern provinces, as long as the Ukraine integrity was secured and all russian troops withdrawn. That's what Merkel and Hollande helped mediating.
But russia, as usual, never kept its word, maintaining its troops in the occupied territories, and expanding its occupation even further, through the so called "special operation".

Yep, what was a "civil war", now it's a only a "special operation". Get it? 

Quote from: Wilm on May 04, 2023, 14:59

Quote from: SVH on May 04, 2023, 10:59

Quote from: Wilm on May 04, 2023, 03:19

Quote from: SVH on May 03, 2023, 16:06

Quote from: Wilm on May 02, 2023, 16:56

Quote from: SVH on May 02, 2023, 12:36

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 30, 2023, 17:52

Quote from: SVH on April 30, 2023, 14:59

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 29, 2023, 06:50

Yes, but what about....

Here you are:
https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+baghdad+after+bombing+by+usa&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjP7faYstL-AhX5y7sIHbxlAHYQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1536&bih=761&dpr=2.5

7,186 civilians killed during "shock and awe". The US is more effective than Russia. It took them not even two months and Russia took about eight months to do it. Hats of for the USA.

Quote from: SVH on April 30, 2023, 16:06

I did not gave permission to mingle into this war as an European civilian nor did I gave permission to mingle into political affairs before their civil war ten years back.

You only prove my point.

Instead of being horrified by those attrocities, you justify them.
Through cheap whatabaoutism, you are rationalizing murder, torture, and human suffering happening, next door, right now, under your eyes

You have become "comfortably numb".

.. and it's not a civil war, but an egregious aggression of a sovereign country by an imperialist power.

You are the proof that propaganda is effective.

 

But seriously, why intervene in Yugoslavia and split the country up in regions where ethnic people are in the majority? It seems to work (although they still hate each other) but at least it's kind of stable.

The model of Yugoslavia did not work and is history. Precisely because cultures, traditions, ethnic groups and religions that did not fit together had - incorrectly - been united under one roof.

And from my point of view, this is exactly the reason why the Great Russian Empire does not work either and did not work in the past. Because many regions could not identify with the Russian soul. That's why the empire disintegrated. That is why Putin will not succeed in restoring it to its former greatness. And certainly not by attacking the countries that he would like to see as part of the great empire again. Now the rift is even deeper than it has ever been in history.

Exactly. Yugoslavia did not work, neither will Ukraine as a whole. That was my point. Split it up like we did with Yugoslavia. I am not saying the eastern part should be part of Russia but give it, it's own country, which then can relate to which ever country it likes, as well as the western part. That will be the end solution to this war and stop the unnecessary loss of lives.

This is impossible because:

2022
8:33 p.m.: Russian President Vladimir Putin called Ukraine a "historic Russian territory" in a televised address to the nation Monday night. The country is "an integral part of its own history," the head of state said. Ukraine has no tradition of statehood, he added. The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, he said, put Russia in a difficult position. In its aftermath, he said, it was a mistake to allow Ukraine and other Soviet republics to become independent. "We gave these republics the right to leave the union without conditions," Putin said. "This is simply madness."

It is not about eastern Ukraine at all, but about all of Ukraine - and many other now independent states of the former Soviet Union.

In this respect, what you write cannot be a solution.

Unlike what Russia might say and want, in the end you have to come up with a solution to which all parties will agree. I am not sure if the river Dnjepr will be the dividing line but splitting up the country will most likely be the solution to end the conflict. The sooner the better, I guess. It has no sense pouring weapons into the conflict. Even if Ukraine, with help of NATO countries, will ever win, which is quite unlikely, you will still have resurgents in the east unless they were all slaughtered or expelled. But that would be ethnic cleansing or not? Each day that people do not move to the negotiation table more lives will be unnecessary lost. And not everybody has the same political agenda here.

The ethnic cleansing operations are already underway. Ukrainian children are being abducted and handed over to Russian families. Do you have children? Do you have the slightest idea what this means?

And, as can be seen from Putin's statement, the Dnieper is not something that is up for discussion, but the Soviet Union at the size it was before 1991.
Which was what Yugoslavia was - namely a potpourri of the most diverse ethnicities, cultures, traditions and religions. Which also then - as in Yugoslavia - did not work and will not work. As far as Yugoslavia is concerned, you have already admitted that yourself.

Wilm, you are not getting my point. Yugoslavia as one country did not work. Ukraine as one country will not work either. Split it up to solve it, is what I am saying (not make it part of Russia).
But I guess I am on my own here and everybody has to believe that Ukraine is one people, there was nothing going on before Russia invaded it and the EU and USA are only handling in the interest of humankind. So, enough then. Also, on this subject, I will not bother you anymore. We will see how things will evolve and if the pressure cooker will explode or someone will finally just takes the lit off to calm things down again. I hope people come to their senses.

When discussing such sensitive issues, one should refrain from such condescending and belittling remarks.
 
I would be interested to know where you get your Merkel phobia from and what top-secret information and sources you have about her Russian agent life?

Old news, a few weeks old.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/21/world/asia/russia-belgorod-bomb.html?searchResultPosition=2

There is information that the Russians planned to bomb houses in their city. The goal was to accuse Ukraine of this act of terrorism.
Terrorist country = terrorist methods.

Quote from: stoker2014 on May 05, 2023, 05:43

Old news, a few weeks old.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/21/world/asia/russia-belgorod-bomb.html?searchResultPosition=2

There is information that the Russians planned to bomb houses in their city. The goal was to accuse Ukraine of this act of terrorism.
Terrorist country = terrorist methods.

You mean like a faked drone attack on The Kremlin at 2AM, that someone just happened to be recording? And then the so called bombs, never got close to the building and looked like fireworks? Then accused the Ukraine and a day later the US, saying it was a plot to kill Putin. Something I learned from this: Although the Kremlin is the president's official residence, Putin doesn't actually live there.

False Flag attack.

Quote from: stoker2014 on May 05, 2023, 12:13

Armed forces of Ukraine assault entrenchments with Russian occupiers near the city of Bakhmut. Assault was successful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA6zyFwpGZw&t=1

Wow, this is hard to watch, let alone be there, facing death every second...

True heroes!

The russian empire is still in place with its colonial and imperialist agenda, dominating 190 ethnic groups (Tatars, Chechens, Bashkirs, Chuvash, Avars, Dargins, Kazakhs, etc...), many of which are still living in well defined regions, despite the aggressive ethnic cleansing, deportation and russification policies they were subject to.