Quote from: SVH on July 09, 2023, 12:13

Is this a good time to bring up Volhynia? There was a commemoration after all last week (the massive slaughter of Polish and Jewish people by Ukrainian nationalists).

https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/07/polish-demand-for-recognition-of-wwii-massacres-sparks-row-with-ukraine

I bring this up because it's strange that the leaders of that massacre (like Stepan Bandera), are still being seen as heroes today in Ukraine, even increasingly the last few months. They should know better by now.

No, it is not strange. The Ukrainian statehood is relatively fresh. And any nation, especially a young one, needs some heroes, any kind of heroes...

But Bandera will be soon forgotten, there will be no need for such "heroes", especially when that "hero" is despised by one of their most important allies.
After the war, there will be countless new Ukrainian heroes who defended their country against Mordor and the genocide that its orcs brought with them.

And all the tankies and vatniks of the world can weep as much as they want and they will not be able to change it. Both Ukrainians and Poles understand that they must be friends and that there is no alternative.

Ukrainian-Polish brotherhood is a fact now, Russia is being demilitarized, Ukraine will be in NATO and the EU, Finland has joined NATO, Europe doesn't need Russian gas anymore, Russia is a vassal state of China. A piece of sh** would have been a more successful Russian president than putin, and a better choice for Russia. And if putin owns Trump, what does it say about Trump?

Oh, Volhynia, Bandera, Ukrainian Insurgent Army, these are all Russian propaganda narratives. A lot of Poles died at the hands of the Russians and a lot of Poles were deported to Siberia. Do not read Russian trolls like SVH, I have it on ignore.
All these are questions of history, a lot of crimes were committed by Russians against Ukrainians and Poles in those distant times. There were many facts when the Russians dressed up in the uniform of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and committed various atrocities against the Poles, under a false flag.
If anyone is interested, you can discuss these issues of history, but only recently some KGB archives have been opened and all these historical issues are in the process of studying historians.
I read the memoirs of some soldiers of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, there was nothing massively criminal there. In those days, the Western part of Ukraine was under the occupation of Poland, so the Ukrainian Insurgent Army waged a war on three fronts - against the Russians, against the Poles and against the Nazi troops.
Yes, and read the biography of Bandera, he spent the entire second world war in a German concentration camp.

Quote from: Wilm on July 10, 2023, 16:53

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 10, 2023, 10:06

Quote from: Wilm on July 10, 2023, 05:16

As for the data of the killed Russian soldiers, a publication appeared today. According to the study, approx. 47,000 Russian soldiers have died.
https://meduza.io/en/feature/2023/07/10/bring-out-your-dead

This is the data of the Russians, there is a lie. Do not believe what the Russians write.
Biden said that 100,000 Russians were liquidated in Bakhmut alone. And Bayhmut is only 10% of the front, if not less.
Those figures that I gave are still very much underestimated, you can multiply by 1.5 or 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzlXFYvqKiw

I don't believe anything because I have no idea what to believe.

I just wanted to express that different sources come to different numbers. How you can be sure that the figures you mentioned are correct or even significantly underestimated, as you write, I don't know either.

By the way, Dmitry Kobak is someone who has already uncovered Russia's embellished Corona statistics. According to his investigations, more than four times as many Russians died of corona than the Russian government's figures indicated.

I find it hard to believe that he would now have a scientific interest in whitewashing the numbers of deaths from the war.

If I were you, I would not believe the truth of all the pictures you publish here.

It is quite enough for the Russian trolls to cover the whole planet with countless untruths. We should not jump on this bandwagon!

What photos that I posted here cause you doubts?

I gave a link to Biden's speech. You do not trust the data of American intelligence? But for some reason you trust some Russian there.
I know that Ukraine collects statistics very carefully, because it is under the control of so many international organizations, as well as allies. In the statistics that Ukraine publishes only verified data, which far from everything falls into.
There is no opposition in Russia, I have already written this many times. Almost all Russians are for the Russian empire. And even if some kind of "good" Russian wants to do a casualty count, he will not be able to do it, because military losses in Russia are classified military information. What's more, Russians don't even count everything. They do not count how many of their prisoners died, they do not count the dead Ukrainian collaborators.
Do you know how they treat their wounded on the battlefield? The Russians don't give them any medical attention at all, and people who might have survived end up dying from minor wounds.

In Bachmut - at least that's how I understand the statement - the Russians have 100,000 dead + wounded according to White House information.
When you write "liquidated," I understand it to mean "killed."

The leaked reports of the DIA from 01 March 2023, which the Pentagon confirmed, say:

Pentagon report: how many Ukrainian soldiers have died in the war in Ukraine?
� Ukrainian soldiers killed: 15,500 to 17,500
� Wounded: 109,000 to 113,500
� Total: 124,500 to 131,000

Pentagon report: how many Russian soldiers have died in the war in Ukraine?
� Russian soldiers killed: 35,500 to 43,000
� Wounded: 154,000 to 180,000
� Total: 189,500 to 223,000

It is also possible that I (and you, I suppose) misinterpreted the statement in the graph you posted. I had interpreted "personnel losses" as "dead". Obviously, dead + wounded are meant. Then the numbers in your graphic would fit.

And, to say it again clearly: No, I do not trust the Russian numbers and sources!

As for the pictures, I just wanted to say that Photoshop, as we all know, makes everything possible today. The pictures can be manipulated. They can also be true. I just don't know. I have largely lost my faith in the authenticity of images. And artificial intelligence will contribute to the fact that in the future we will not be allowed to believe a single image. Which I personally find very frightening.

"War casualties include... military personnel... who are killed, wounded, imprisoned, or missing as a result of warfare."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:War_casualties

I beleive "losses" would imply this definition. They are lost to the war effort, either by injury, capture, desertion or death.

"The term "casualties" is frequently misconstrued and misused due to conflation with the term "fatalities" (deaths). "

He is yet another useful idiot, craving for attention and as wrong as putin (or medvedev), whose words he is parroting.

A useful idiot typically has achieved some kind of position in their native country, and hence their "usefulness" (for example: Chomsky, Orban, Schr�der, Waters).

The correct taxonomy for random specimens found in Internet forums is usually one of these: vatnik (the ones from the countries of the former Soviet Union), tankie (from the West) or some third-world boy whose life motto is "Russia stronk". These are the most common species.

They haven't reached the status of a useful idiot, because, on their own, their "usefulness" is very limited. A classic useful idiot is publicly recognizable.

Tonight there is a documentary on ARTE TV. "Putin's Shadow War�. Probably this is uninteresting for English-speakers, because it will not be understandable in terms of content.

I will watch it in any case.

It's about, among other things, a Russian "trawler and research vessel fleet" searching the Norwegian seabed for data cables and sabotage targets.

Tonight there is a documentary on ARTE TV. "Putin's Shadow War�. Probably this is uninteresting for English-speakers, because it will not be understandable in terms of content.

I will watch it in any case.

It's about, among other things, a Russian "trawler and research vessel fleet" searching the Norwegian seabed for data cables and sabotage targets.

Interesting documentary Wilm, I recently saw in the Arte Mediathek. The film leaves one with the frightening question of the extent to which Russia has already prepared the destruction of the European infrastructure, which seems very vulnerable.

Here is tje link, unfortunately only in german:

https://www.arte.tv/de/videos/115177-000-A/putins-schattenkrieg-russische-spionage-in-der-ostsee

Quote from: Wilm on July 11, 2023, 03:15

It is also possible that I (and you, I suppose) misinterpreted the statement in the graph you posted. I had interpreted "personnel losses" as "dead". Obviously, dead + wounded are meant. Then the numbers in your graphic would fit.

In the case of the Russians, it doesn't matter. 
Wounded Russians become killed very quickly because they are not given medical assistance. Also, all these Russian losses are calculated by the method of least numbers. In fact, more Russian soldiers were eliminated.

The Armed Forces of Ukraine use the term liquidated in their reports.

Let's be clear at this point.

I sincerely hope that Ukraine wins the war.

You may not like the Russians, but I am extremely disgusted how you celebrate the death of people, fathers, sons, especially since it can be assumed that many Russian soldiers went to war not entirely voluntarily.

I myself worked as a doctor for over a year in a terrible civil war zone in Asia. When people's intestines hang out of their stomachs or both legs are only bleeding stumps, the suffering is the same for all people and for their families. There is nothing to celebrate for either side.

Leave your computer keyboard and come to the real world.

This is not a * video game here.

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 11, 2023, 13:08

Quote from: Wilm on July 11, 2023, 03:15

It is also possible that I (and you, I suppose) misinterpreted the statement in the graph you posted. I had interpreted "personnel losses" as "dead". Obviously, dead + wounded are meant. Then the numbers in your graphic would fit.

In the case of the Russians, it doesn't matter. 
Wounded Russians become killed very quickly because they are not given medical assistance. Also, all these Russian losses are calculated by the method of least numbers. In fact, more Russian soldiers were eliminated.

The Armed Forces of Ukraine use the term liquidated in their reports.

Let's be clear at this point.

I sincerely hope that Ukraine wins the war.

You may not like the Russians, but I am extremely disgusted how you celebrate the death of people, fathers, sons, especially since it can be assumed that many Russian soldiers went to war not entirely voluntarily.

I myself worked as a doctor for over a year in a terrible civil war zone in Asia. When people's intestines hang out of their stomachs or both legs are only bleeding stumps, the suffering is the same for all people and for their families. There is nothing to celebrate for either side.

Leave your computer keyboard and come to the real world.

This is not a * video game here.

No winners will emerge from this war - only losers!

And Putin does not care. He likes to show himself as a strong man with a naked upper body. But he doesn't have to fight.

I wonder if a single son of an oligarch has to go to war. And I bet that the children of the oligarchs will be spared and will continue to be properly fed with money from the Russian leadership. Just as it has always been.

I sincerely hope that Ukraine wins the war.

You may not like the Russians, but I am extremely disgusted how you celebrate the death of people, fathers, sons, especially since it can be assumed that many Russian soldiers went to war not entirely voluntarily.

I myself worked as a doctor for over a year in a terrible civil war zone in Asia. When people's intestines hang out of their stomachs or both legs are only bleeding stumps, the suffering is the same for all people and for their families. There is nothing to celebrate for either side.

This is a tricky one. I do not celebrate the deaths of individual Russian soldiers and the family tragedies behind those deaths. I don't want to become a monster myself. But at the same time, it is obvious that each dead Russian soldier means that he won't be able to kill innocent Ukrainians and it also makes it less likely that Russia will try to invade another country in the near future. It is oddly satisfying to see Russian military bases or tanks being blown up, because it makes Europe a little safer in the future. I just don't celebrate the human tragedy behind it. I celebrate it as a strategic/tactical success, if that makes sense.

It is safe to assume that most of Russians support Putin / Prigozhin, and then you also have other imperialist scumbags like Navalny and his followers. The percentage of decent Russians is very small. I know such ones from YouTube and other places. I try to support them by giving likes to their content, to counterbalance my extremely negative feelings towards Russia as a whole.

This Russian guy celebrates Russian losses too:

https://www.youtube.com/@TheRussianDude

This anti-Putin Russian guy applied for asylum in the very "russophobic" country of Poland. Quite brave. He learns Polish and makes shocking video comparisons of everyday life quality in Russia and Poland. You can turn on automatic translated subtitles to understand him. His Russian family has "cancelled" him for what he is doing. He knows that Russia is a s#ithole, but he wants Russians to see the light and change. So, I think it is good to promote such people:

https://www.youtube.com/@ViacheslavZarutskii

Quote from: Wilm on July 11, 2023, 14:05

Quote from: RalfLiebhold on July 11, 2023, 13:41

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 11, 2023, 13:08

Quote from: Wilm on July 11, 2023, 03:15

It is also possible that I (and you, I suppose) misinterpreted the statement in the graph you posted. I had interpreted "personnel losses" as "dead". Obviously, dead + wounded are meant. Then the numbers in your graphic would fit.

In the case of the Russians, it doesn't matter. 
Wounded Russians become killed very quickly because they are not given medical assistance. Also, all these Russian losses are calculated by the method of least numbers. In fact, more Russian soldiers were eliminated.

The Armed Forces of Ukraine use the term liquidated in their reports.

Let's be clear at this point.

I sincerely hope that Ukraine wins the war.

You may not like the Russians, but I am extremely disgusted how you celebrate the death of people, fathers, sons, especially since it can be assumed that many Russian soldiers went to war not entirely voluntarily.

I myself worked as a doctor for over a year in a terrible civil war zone in Asia. When people's intestines hang out of their stomachs or both legs are only bleeding stumps, the suffering is the same for all people and for their families. There is nothing to celebrate for either side.

Leave your computer keyboard and come to the real world.

This is not a * video game here.

No winners will emerge from this war - only losers!

And Putin does not care. He likes to show himself as a strong man with a naked upper body. But he doesn't have to fight.

I wonder if a single son of an oligarch has to go to war. And I bet that the children of the oligarchs will be spared and will continue to be properly fed with money from the Russian leadership. Just as it has always been.

Wilm that's right.
Actually, I wanted to stay out of the discussion here. What I myself wish Putin and others, I save myself here. 

But if someone with 3 smileys is happy about the fact that people die in the trenches without help - then I actually lack the words.
On the other hand, I would have words for this stoker-computer-nerd, but then I would fly out of the forum.

Yes, I know you good enough to follow your thoughts! I feel it the same way.

The wars should look like leaders and their children leading the way in the front lines. Then the politicians, the journalist and military experts,  and then the rest of the people.

That would stop them in a second.

Of course. Tell that to the alexithymic putin, the one hiding in a bunker, while sending his men to die for his quixotic dreams of grandor.

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 11, 2023, 18:04

Quote from: Lizard on July 11, 2023, 17:56

The wars should look like leaders and their children leading the way in the front lines. Then the politicians, the journalist and military experts,  and then the rest of the people.

That would stop them in a second.

Of course. Tell that to the alexithymic putin, the one hiding in a bunker, while sending his men to die for his quixotic dreams of grandor.

And Putin, and Obama, and Bush and Clinton and all the others impotent psychopaths 

If you say so.
But for now, putin is the one you should focus on. He is the clear and present danger.
The others are history, like Alexander the Great & Co.

Quote from: Wilm on July 11, 2023, 12:49

Tonight there is a documentary on ARTE TV. "Putin's Shadow War�. Probably this is uninteresting for English-speakers, because it will not be understandable in terms of content.

I will watch it in any case.

It's about, among other things, a Russian "trawler and research vessel fleet" searching the Norwegian seabed for data cables and sabotage targets.

I found some spoilers for you, Wilm 😉

https://www.euronews.com/2023/04/19/ghost-ships-and-espionage-russias-huge-surveillance-efforts-laid-bare-in-new-nordic-docume

Russia should be immediately sent to a landfill. We need an iron wall between this terrorist country and the civilized world. Not a single Russian vessel, not a single citizen of russia should be on the territory of free Europe, and not only Europe. Drive the Russians out of the EU, otherwise Putin will send troops into your countries to protect these Russians. It was with this narrative that he attacked Ukraine.