Author Topic: This should settle some different opinions (Read 132495 times)

stoker2014 · « **Reply #825 on:** July 16, 2023, 03:44 »

Quote from: Annie on July 16, 2023, 03:27

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 16, 2023, 02:24
Quote from: Annie on July 15, 2023, 17:44
Quote from: Roscoe link=topic=37652.msg589667#msg58

And let's be very clear, without NATO (and mainly USA) support, Ukraine was Russian territory by now.
They give Ukrainians the weapons, some controversial ones included, teach them how to use them, and tell them where to aim them at by providing intelligence.

Yes. And I imagine US intelligence is possibly the most priceless aid of all.
Where was this intelligence in 2014, when the Russians were implementing the planned destabilization in Ukraine with the subsequent occupation of Crimea and Donbass.
And in 2022, any fool knew that the Russians would launch an offensive, everyone saw that they brought a lot of troops to the Ukrainian border.

I am getting the feeling Stoker, that you don't really understand or fully appreciate the full extent of US intelligence. (or the sophistication of their spy satellites, for example)

Well, if you are talking about satellites, of course they are. I wrote about the excellently executed terrorist operation by the Russians to seize Crimea and eastern Ukraine in 2014. There was information that a whole department in the CIA was eventually fired.
So, besides looking at images from satellites, does intelligence know anything else? I got the impression that US intelligence does not understand what it receives money for.
But of course, military intelligence is not bad now following the Russian troops and reporting information to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

But how could you miss the preparation of the Russians in 2013 and do nothing .... Democrats ....

Zero Talent · « **Reply #826 on:** July 16, 2023, 15:01 »

More humor with those politicians-who-are-not-helping-Ukraine:

https://youtu.be/ZVg62_lSbmE

Funny to see Sunak and Meloni, checking exactly this video during the recent NATO summit

Note the also funny name of this Ukrainian channel: "Saint Javelin".
"Saint Javelin", named after the FGM-148 Javelin, or Advanced Anti-Tank Weapon System-Medium, supplied to Ukraine by the Biden administration. It's so effective that it was blessed into sainthood.

PS. Something extra from the same channel:
https://youtube.com/shorts/tBXHJHVrGqQ

stoker2014 · « **Reply #827 on:** July 16, 2023, 15:46 »

The Democrats slowly began to understand what Valerii Zaluzhnyi had told them. Today, Biden gave permission to train Ukrainian pilots on the F16. Well, let's see when the Democrats will give F16 to Ukraine and in what quantity .....

Weapons are good, but they are few, they give little! And worst of all, the Democrats won't allow it to be used effectively.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #828 on:** July 16, 2023, 15:53 »

Through this bridge, Russian terrorists supply 30% of weapons and soldiers to the occupied territory of Ukraine. The Democrats will not allow this bridge to be destroyed.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #829 on:** July 16, 2023, 15:58 »

And therefore, the bridge is supplied with 70% of weapons to Russian terrorists on the territory of Ukraine. Democrats also do not allow this bridge to be liquidated.

Annie2022 · « **Reply #830 on:** July 16, 2023, 18:59 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 16, 2023, 03:44

Quote from: Annie on July 16, 2023, 03:27
Quote from: stoker2014 on July 16, 2023, 02:24
Quote from: Annie on July 15, 2023, 17:44
Quote from: Roscoe link=topic=37652.msg589667#msg58

And let's be very clear, without NATO (and mainly USA) support, Ukraine was Russian territory by now.
They give Ukrainians the weapons, some controversial ones included, teach them how to use them, and tell them where to aim them at by providing intelligence.

Yes. And I imagine US intelligence is possibly the most priceless aid of all.
Where was this intelligence in 2014, when the Russians were implementing the planned destabilization in Ukraine with the subsequent occupation of Crimea and Donbass.
And in 2022, any fool knew that the Russians would launch an offensive, everyone saw that they brought a lot of troops to the Ukrainian border.

I am getting the feeling Stoker, that you don't really understand or fully appreciate the full extent of US intelligence. (or the sophistication of their spy satellites, for example)
Well, if you are talking about satellites, of course they are. I wrote about the excellently executed terrorist operation by the Russians to seize Crimea and eastern Ukraine in 2014. There was information that a whole department in the CIA was eventually fired.
So, besides looking at images from satellites, does intelligence know anything else? I got the impression that US intelligence does not understand what it receives money for.
But of course, military intelligence is not bad now following the Russian troops and reporting information to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

But how could you miss the preparation of the Russians in 2013 and do nothing .... Democrats ....

Stoker, I have deliberately ignored your references to 2013/4 in the past couple of pages. You do understand what #whataboutism is and why it's a bad thing to do, don't you?

Its interesting that its also been claimed to be a russian defence. From wiki:

Writing for Bloomberg News , Leonid Bershidsky called whataboutism a "Russian tradition", while The New Yorker described the technique as "a strategy of false moral equivalences". Julia Ioffe called whataboutism a "sacred Russian tactic", and compared it to accusing the pot of calling the kettle black.

Also Trump uses it, Fox News uses it, and a lot of negative people also use it to hide or distract from the truth or prevent others from solving current issues.

For example, Roscoe said USA provides Ukraine with their intelligence (present time), and I replied that it must be a priceless aid to have. And then you came along and interrupted, talking about something that happened a decade ago. That is Whataboutism.

The other thing that you're doing that is driving me crazy is all this labelling. ie. in this case, democrats, as if its a bad thing. You do realize that a lot of the Joint Chiefs who sit in the situation room and advise the president are republicans, don't you? So quit with the labelling. Its distracting, negative, incorrect, and harmful.

LDV81 · « **Reply #831 on:** July 16, 2023, 22:04 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 16, 2023, 15:53

Through this bridge, Russian terrorists supply 30% of weapons and soldiers to the occupied territory of Ukraine. The Democrats will not allow this bridge to be destroyed.

There are reports from many sources that a part of the bridge collapsed at night.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #832 on:** July 17, 2023, 02:40 »

Quote from: Annie on July 16, 2023, 18:59

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 16, 2023, 03:44
Quote from: Annie on July 16, 2023, 03:27
Quote from: stoker2014 on July 16, 2023, 02:24
Quote from: Annie on July 15, 2023, 17:44
Quote from: Roscoe link=topic=37652.msg589667#msg58

And let's be very clear, without NATO (and mainly USA) support, Ukraine was Russian territory by now.
They give Ukrainians the weapons, some controversial ones included, teach them how to use them, and tell them where to aim them at by providing intelligence.

Yes. And I imagine US intelligence is possibly the most priceless aid of all.
Where was this intelligence in 2014, when the Russians were implementing the planned destabilization in Ukraine with the subsequent occupation of Crimea and Donbass.
And in 2022, any fool knew that the Russians would launch an offensive, everyone saw that they brought a lot of troops to the Ukrainian border.

I am getting the feeling Stoker, that you don't really understand or fully appreciate the full extent of US intelligence. (or the sophistication of their spy satellites, for example)
Well, if you are talking about satellites, of course they are. I wrote about the excellently executed terrorist operation by the Russians to seize Crimea and eastern Ukraine in 2014. There was information that a whole department in the CIA was eventually fired.
So, besides looking at images from satellites, does intelligence know anything else? I got the impression that US intelligence does not understand what it receives money for.
But of course, military intelligence is not bad now following the Russian troops and reporting information to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

But how could you miss the preparation of the Russians in 2013 and do nothing .... Democrats ....

Stoker, I have deliberately ignored your references to 2013/4 in the past couple of pages. You do understand what #whataboutism is and why it's a bad thing to do, don't you?

Its interesting that its also been claimed to be a russian defence. From wiki:

Writing for Bloomberg News , Leonid Bershidsky called whataboutism a "Russian tradition", while The New Yorker described the technique as "a strategy of false moral equivalences". Julia Ioffe called whataboutism a "sacred Russian tactic", and compared it to accusing the pot of calling the kettle black.

Also Trump uses it, Fox News uses it, and a lot of negative people also use it to hide or distract from the truth or prevent others from solving current issues.

For example, Roscoe said USA provides Ukraine with their intelligence (present time), and I replied that it must be a priceless aid to have. And then you came along and interrupted, talking about something that happened a decade ago. That is Whataboutism.

The other thing that you're doing that is driving me crazy is all this labelling. ie. in this case, democrats, as if its a bad thing. You do realize that a lot of the Joint Chiefs who sit in the situation room and advise the president are republicans, don't you? So quit with the labelling. Its distracting, negative, incorrect, and harmful.

+100
I didn't know there was such a term as Whataboutism.
I followed the principle that everyone talks about what only bothers him.
Well, I'll try not to use the word Democrats anymore.
I agree with the criticism leveled at me.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #833 on:** July 17, 2023, 02:47 »

Quote from: LDV81 on July 16, 2023, 22:04

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 16, 2023, 15:53
Through this bridge, Russian terrorists supply 30% of weapons and soldiers to the occupied territory of Ukraine. The Democrats will not allow this bridge to be destroyed.

There are reports from many sources that a part of the bridge collapsed at night.

+100
If Valerii Zaluzhnyi said that he would shoot where he needed to shoot, then he would definitely shoot. Which is what happened tonight. I see that the strikes were carried out on the road bridge, by sea drones. Of course, missile strikes would have done more destruction, but as I already wrote, Ukraine is not allowed to fire non-Ukrainian missiles at Crimea. I think this is just the beginning. These damages to the road bridge stopped the flow of Russian cars towards the Crimea through this bridge. With this flow of cars, the Russians protected (covered) the bridge with the help of their women and children. The Armed Forces of Ukraine are not the Russian army and do not shoot at places where civilians gather. This was used by Russian terrorists. According to the same principle, the Russian army always fights, hiding behind women and children. I think that there will still be shelling of the bridge, more serious, and definitely on the railway bridge too.
Now the Armed Forces of Ukraine will be able to make more attacks on both the road bridge and the railway.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1680823077616115713

stoker2014 · « **Reply #834 on:** July 17, 2023, 03:26 »

The reconnaissance group of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is liquidating a Russian military vehicle.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1680845480740151297

stoker2014 · « **Reply #835 on:** July 17, 2023, 08:33 »

Trump describes how he could solve Russia-Ukraine conflict in 24 hours
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-describes-how-he-could-solve-russia-ukraine-conflict-24-hours

In his pre-election populism, Trump hints that he can give Ukraine more weapons than they are currently giving.

$:-\$

$:-\$

To begin with, there is no conflict in Ukraine, but there is a military and terrorist attack by Russia on Ukraine with the aim of destroying Ukraine and Ukrainians. The Fox channel should stop relaying Russian propaganda.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #836 on:** July 17, 2023, 10:13 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 17, 2023, 08:33

Trump describes how he could solve Russia-Ukraine conflict in 24 hours
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-describes-how-he-could-solve-russia-ukraine-conflict-24-hours

In his pre-election populism, Trump hints that he can give Ukraine more weapons than they are currently giving.

$:-\$ $:-\$

To begin with, there is no conflict in Ukraine, but there is a military and terrorist attack by Russia on Ukraine with the aim of destroying Ukraine and Ukrainians. The Fox channel should stop relaying Russian propaganda.

Did you realize what he said?

"I know Zelenskyy very well, and I know Putin very well, even better. And I had a good relationship, very good with both of them. I would tell Zelenskyy, no more. You got to make a deal. I would tell Putin, if you don't make a deal, we're going to give him a lot. We're going to [give Ukraine] more than they ever got if we have to. I will have the deal done in one day. One day"

Translation: he will first ask Zelensky to give up Ukrainian lands as part of the "deal". And only if putin doesn't agree, he will support Ukraine.

In other words, trump doesn't support Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity and he will give putin exactly what he wants: Ukrainian lands.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #837 on:** July 17, 2023, 11:02 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 17, 2023, 10:13

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 17, 2023, 08:33
Trump describes how he could solve Russia-Ukraine conflict in 24 hours
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-describes-how-he-could-solve-russia-ukraine-conflict-24-hours

In his pre-election populism, Trump hints that he can give Ukraine more weapons than they are currently giving.

$:-\$ $:-\$

To begin with, there is no conflict in Ukraine, but there is a military and terrorist attack by Russia on Ukraine with the aim of destroying Ukraine and Ukrainians. The Fox channel should stop relaying Russian propaganda.

Did you realize what he said?

"I know Zelenskyy very well, and I know Putin very well, even better. And I had a good relationship, very good with both of them. I would tell Zelenskyy, no more. You got to make a deal. I would tell Putin, if you don't make a deal, we're going to give him a lot. We're going to [give Ukraine] more than they ever got if we have to. I will have the deal done in one day. One day"

Translation: he will first ask Zelensky to give up Ukrainian lands as part of the "deal". And only if putin doesn't agree, he will support Ukraine.

In other words, trump doesn't support Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity and he will give putin exactly what he wants: Ukrainian lands.

Trump said so that the interpretation of the meaning of what was said may be different

. If another person, a normal person, said this, it would be interesting.
I can interpret his proposal like this, Zelenskyy is telling putin to get Russia out of all of Ukraine. In response, putin does not agree. So Trump is giving a lot of weapons to Ukraine.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #838 on:** July 17, 2023, 11:11 »

I do not want Trump to be the President of the United States, even if it is known that he is the best president for Ukraine. I do not think only in the interests of Ukraine. I believe that no normal country deserves a president like Trump.
But I want to say this, and this has already been said by many politicians during the previous Trump campaign. Trump during the election campaign is not the Trump who becomes president, these are two different Trumps. Populism and self-promotion are one thing, and the office of president is another. During the Trump administration, I did not see any special idiotic decisions. And I even liked his policy towards the EU. Trump was also the first to give Ukraine javelins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin).

Zero Talent · « **Reply #839 on:** July 17, 2023, 11:36 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 17, 2023, 11:02

I can interpret his proposal like this, Zelenskyy is telling putin to get Russia out of all of Ukraine. In response, putin does not agree. So Trump is giving a lot of weapons to Ukraine.

This is wishful thinking. Look it up.

He clearly said that he will first tell Zelensky "no more".
In other words: no more fight to free up the occupied territories.

But hey... feel free to twist trump's words until they fit your pre-conceived opinions. It will not change the reality that he is bad news for Ukraine.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #840 on:** July 17, 2023, 13:43 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 16, 2023, 15:01

More humor with those politicians-who-are-not-helping-Ukraine:
Funny to see Sunak and Meloni, checking exactly this video during the recent NATO summit
Note the also funny name of this Ukrainian channel: "Saint Javelin".
"Saint Javelin", named after the FGM-148 Javelin, or Advanced Anti-Tank Weapon System-Medium, supplied to Ukraine by the Biden administration. It's so effective that it was blessed into sainthood.

PS. Something extra from the same channel:
https://youtube.com/shorts/tBXHJHVrGqQ

How do we know what they are watching on their smartphone? But the links are cool, yes.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #841 on:** July 17, 2023, 13:44 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 17, 2023, 11:36

He clearly said that he will first tell Zelensky "no more".
In other words: no more fight to free up the occupied territories.

This is your interpretation of Trump's words. In fact, in that interview to which I gave a link, he did not say that Ukraine should give up its territory to the Russians.

Trump is a Republican, you think too badly of the Republicans.

Wilm · « **Reply #842 on:** July 17, 2023, 15:17 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 17, 2023, 13:44

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 17, 2023, 11:36
He clearly said that he will first tell Zelensky "no more".
In other words: no more fight to free up the occupied territories.
This is your interpretation of Trump's words. In fact, in that interview to which I gave a link, he did not say that Ukraine should give up its territory to the Russians.

Trump is a Republican, you think too badly of the Republicans.

Trump is the American Putin.

Big Toe · « **Reply #843 on:** July 17, 2023, 15:31 »

Quote from: Wilm on July 17, 2023, 15:17

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 17, 2023, 13:44
Quote from: Zero Talent on July 17, 2023, 11:36
He clearly said that he will first tell Zelensky "no more".
In other words: no more fight to free up the occupied territories.
This is your interpretation of Trump's words. In fact, in that interview to which I gave a link, he did not say that Ukraine should give up its territory to the Russians.

Trump is a Republican, you think too badly of the Republicans.

Trump is the American Putin.

Trump was a terrible president, but that does not make him the American Putin.

During his term of being president, he didn't poison or imprison politicians of the opposition or journalists, he didn't silence nearly all opposing voices and he didn't invade a neigbouring country (or any country for that matter).

Zero Talent · « **Reply #844 on:** July 17, 2023, 15:34 »

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 17, 2023, 13:44

Trump is a Republican, you think too badly of the Republicans.

No. As I said, the pre-MAGA true conservative Republicans (the ones you liked) were fine.
Today's nationalist-populist and isolationist MAGA Republicans (the ones you think you like) are a disgrace.

Wilm · « **Reply #845 on:** July 17, 2023, 16:30 »

Quote from: Big Toe on July 17, 2023, 15:31

Quote from: Wilm on July 17, 2023, 15:17
Quote from: stoker2014 on July 17, 2023, 13:44
Quote from: Zero Talent on July 17, 2023, 11:36
He clearly said that he will first tell Zelensky "no more".
In other words: no more fight to free up the occupied territories.
This is your interpretation of Trump's words. In fact, in that interview to which I gave a link, he did not say that Ukraine should give up its territory to the Russians.

Trump is a Republican, you think too badly of the Republicans.

Trump is the American Putin.

Trump was a terrible president, but that does not make him the American Putin.

During his term of being president, he didn't poison or imprison politicians of the opposition or journalists, he didn't silence nearly all opposing voices and he didn't invade a neigbouring country (or any country for that matter).

That's right. But he has the same problem with journalists who disagree with him as Putin does.
He would also like to rebuild the legal system in his favor, like Putin.
There are too many parallels.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #846 on:** July 17, 2023, 16:54 »

Quote from: Wilm on July 17, 2023, 15:17

Quote from: stoker2014 on July 17, 2023, 13:44
Quote from: Zero Talent on July 17, 2023, 11:36
He clearly said that he will first tell Zelensky "no more".
In other words: no more fight to free up the occupied territories.
This is your interpretation of Trump's words. In fact, in that interview to which I gave a link, he did not say that Ukraine should give up its territory to the Russians.

Trump is a Republican, you think too badly of the Republicans.

Trump is the American Putin.

I already wrote, I liked Trump because he did not allow Merkel to help putin and russia.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #847 on:** July 17, 2023, 16:58 »

I watch the news on US TV channels, I see one-sided coverage of the explosion of the Crimean bridge. They talk about some kind of 2 dead rashists, and that's it. Why not tell people that this bridge was illegally built by the Russians, that it is a military facility through which the Russians deliver hundreds of thousands of shells to Ukraine and every day they kill hundreds of women and children, destroy houses and cities. But the media say that this is just a bridge and that two Russians who illegally crossed the Ukrainian border on this bridge died.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #848 on:** July 17, 2023, 17:16 »

I find mind boggling that so many russians traveled to enjoy the summer in Crimean resorts with kids and families.
What was in their heads? Didn't they realize it's an actual war zone?
Now that the bridge is non-functional, they must take an even riskier route home, through Mariupol and witness the real horrors of their regime.

Who on this forum would travel to a Crimean resort, these days, even assuming that your whole trip + accomodation + food is paid for?

LDV81 · « **Reply #849 on:** July 17, 2023, 18:39 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 17, 2023, 17:16

Who on this forum would travel to a Crimean resort, these days, even assuming that your whole trip + accomodation + food is paid for?

When the time comes, I will certainly want to go to NAFO's Crimea Beach Party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVg62_lSbmE

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Author Topic: This should settle some different opinions (Read 132495 times)

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