There is no similarity in Hitler vs Putin (except for their egos maybe). There is no similarity between this war and WWII.

You still seem to forget. There is not one people in Ukraine, never was. There was a coup by one party and there was a civil war between two different thinking groups of people in one country. You want to give it all to one party (which you favour) and you are not considering at all the will of the other group.
It would be better if both groups got what they want and that is sovereignty. Where exactly to draw the line is something to negotiate on the peace table. We did it in Yougoslavia. Different people, all have their own country now. Same should apply here.
Every war ends with talks. No war has ever ended with everybody dead on one side. It's not appeasement, it is common sense and the logical thing to do.

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 21, 2023, 13:27

Quote from: SVH on August 21, 2023, 12:47

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 21, 2023, 10:29

Quote from: trabuco on August 21, 2023, 05:05

It's stupid.

Ukraine doesn't know how to use or repare them. Are not toys, hard to handle.

No. It's not. Not at all. It's the right thing to do.

A dedicated training center for Ukrainian pilots is being set up, as we speak, at the Borcea airforce base in Romania.

This type of training takes time. The F16s and the pilots will only be ready to defend Ukraine from the imperialist russian invasion from 2024 onwards.

By all accounts this is late, but better late than never.

Ukrainian F-16 pilots will be trained by the private company Draken International.

The company published a recruitment ad stating that the military instructors would work at the Borcea/Feteşti military base in Romania.

The company is also recruiting other categories of personnel for the pilot training center, including technicians, electricians, and other avionics specialists. Applicants must have at least five years of experience operating F-16 aircraft. Hired people will stay in Romania for three to 19 months.

Initially, training will consist of testing and selection of Ukrainian personnel, language lessons, and later theoretical and practical training will be conducted. The program aims for Ukrainian pilots to acquire basic skills in operating and maintaining F-16 aircraft

And you think giving Ukraine F16's will not escalate . out if it? Thank god that Denmark and Holland will take their time to do so. And hopefully peace negotations will already be on it's way before the actual delivery. Which is also the only sensible thing to do then to continue this war with it's losses it causes on both sides. Both are wrong. Coming to an agreement is really the only way.

Peace is straightforward: total russia withdrawal within its internationaly recognized borders.
Then compensations for the all the war crimes (for Sophia, above, inclusive) and destruction.This is what should be negotiated.

Peace only depends on putin's ego. It's 100% within his power to make peace.

And btw, an early NATO enforced no-fly zone above Ukraine would have prevented all this russian abomination from happening.

But Neville Chamberlain type of appeasers like Obama, Macron (and Schulz up to a certain point) had to learn the hard way that you can't appease the likes of putin. This type is only seeing goodwill as weakness and become even more emboldened, with their imperialistic ambitions.

There is no similarity in Hitler vs Putin (except for their egos maybe). There is no similarity between this war and WWII.

You still seem to forget. There is not one people in Ukraine, never was. There was a coup by one party and there was a civil war between two different thinking groups of people in one country. You want to give it all to one party (which you favour) and you are not considering at all the will of the other group.
It would be better if both groups got what they want and that is sovereignty. Where exactly to draw the line is something to negotiate on the peace table. We did it in Yougoslavia. Different people, all have their own country now. Same should apply here.
Every war ends with talks. No war has ever ended with everybody dead on one side. It's not appeasement, it is common sense and the logical thing to do.

ordinary people

Quote from: stoker2014 on August 22, 2023, 09:07

Whose Crimea?

Do you have a special button on your keyboard with this phrase or is it in your head? Move to live in the Crimea and it will be yours. Just like now it belongs to its inhabitants.

Quote from: Wilm on August 21, 2023, 14:37

There is a crucial difference. No neighbor of Switzerland, no Italian, no French, no German and no Austrian, steals Swiss children to bring them to their own country. And no Swiss neighbor claims that the Swiss are *. No Italian neighbor claims that Switzerland once belonged to the former Roman Empire and thus to Italy. No neighbor imposes its culture, language or cultural identity on Switzerland. And above all: no neighbor interferes in Switzerland's decisions about which alliance Switzerland should join - be it military, be it economic or whatever.

Heeding your "advice" would have achieved nothing. Putin wants Russia to be the size of the former tsarist empire. No matter how Ukraine would have behaved.

And if your way of thinking were to be believed, then the states of Eastern Europe, then Central Europe and then Western Europe would be next on Putin's agenda. Because he lacks the buffer to NATO. Until now, that buffer has been Ukraine. If it became Russian, he would be even closer to NATO and would have to create a buffer again. And so on...

Lets start with the end...and that's pure populism. Russia doesn't have offensive military strength, nor resources nor nearly enough personnel to even think to invade anyone cause Putin would end up like Hitler. Secondly during his career most of that Europe was not in NATO and there wasn't slightest chance of that scenario. And third, planning to bring nuclear weapons and building military bases under direct US control pointing at Russia directly on her borders is a huge factor and don't pretend you don't see this is not a main reason for what is happening. At the end, you are writing like Putin had an agenda of occupying whole Europe. He said multiple times don't spread NATO to their borders and anyone with his power would do the same starting from US if he made an alliance with Mexico lets say and planned to put his missiles there, you would have a war. As simple as that.

Zielinski is no less of a puppet than Yanukovych and he knew exactly the risks he is taking and he didn't give a f..k about his people and his country benefits, he also played with fire by allowing what was happening to Russian minority in his country ( which if btw. Swiss people would start to do to German, Italian or French minorities that would end up with some neighbor problems for sure) 

And back to the beginning, Italia, Gemany, France or Austria don't have their neighbors missiles pointed at them despite the facts that they invaded every single country around them and some of them not so long ago. Not to even mention that some of them have pretty strong political currents that are openly promoting revision of historical maps and have pretty strong pretensions on foreign territories with influence of ideas of a guy with little square mustaches.

Back on Zielinski, he knew pretty well that the geographic position of his country requires a bit more wisdom than if he was on the other side of Europe, and Im also pretty sure he was not stupid, he knew exacly what could happen and he didn't care about his people but about being a loyal servant of masters that are throwing him crumbs at the moment but he can not say it to loud because they shut him up sooo quickly.

The first low signal he got from NATO recently to think about giving up parts of his territory speaks enough. The fact that Jenssen apologized, said it was a mistake but that even so he wouldn't rule out the idea so quickly, clearly speaks about whats going on behind the closed doors. If someone thinks something like that is a mistake coming from that level where everything is checked 100 times before it hits the public, well that one deserves a golden squirrel naivety reward.

I don't know how old your history books are and to what extent your remarks are Russian colored.

Quote from: Lizard on August 21, 2023, 11:22

Worst leader in history of mankind.

Yeah... it makes sense, especially when compared with other leaders in history of mankind, like stalin, hitler, pol pot, mao, ceauşescu, milo�ević, kim jong un, putin...